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Author Topic:   Peanut Gallery Comments on Great Debate
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 2 of 220 (845186)
12-13-2018 4:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
12-12-2018 6:44 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
Thanks Phat, I've just read your little history and thought it rather lovely. But back to the fight.
I worry for you, you are already kowtowing to the disingenuous and ignorant ICANT who you are now already calling 'Pastor'. If you want to make progress with this little journey of yours you need to take a couple of steps backwards and squint a little. Use that essential journalistic feature he didn't tell you about, independence of thought and position.
He's already lied to you by telling you that the omitted 6th feature of good reasoning is covered by his fifth of the occasion which is absolutely wrong. The requirement to ask oneself WHY someone is telling you something and telling you it NOW, gets to the agenda of the speaker and asks about his motivation. It's a skeptical question - consider your source.
quote:
it means not becoming seduced by sources, intimidated by power, or compromised by self-interest. On a deeper level it speaks to an independence of spirit and an open-mindedness and intellectual curiosity that helps the journalist see beyond his or her own class or economic status, race, ethnicity, religion, gender or ego.
Beware the snakeoil salesman even if you're in pain.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 12-12-2018 6:44 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by vimesey, posted 12-13-2018 4:19 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 12-13-2018 2:19 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 215 by Phat, posted 12-10-2023 11:41 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 5 of 220 (845227)
12-13-2018 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Phat
12-13-2018 2:19 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
Well I can only wish you luck but if you go in with that supplicant, student:teacher attitude I can tell you now what will happen. You'll be patronised to death and preached at til the cows come home.
Surely you can get that sort of treatment back home? I thought this was about asking the difficult questions, not being spoonfed platitudes.
And yes, ICANT is a pastor, and I have 4 degrees in 4 different subjects but so what? On these boards he's just another guy with an opinion that needs challenging critically. And what's more he's demonstrated that he's disingenuous and ill-informed - this isn't church.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 12-13-2018 2:19 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 12-13-2018 2:42 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 8 by AZPaul3, posted 12-13-2018 3:55 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 7 of 220 (845235)
12-13-2018 3:48 PM


Phat writes:
Tangle is a man with 4 degrees who warns me to avoid you.
No, no no! Stop interpolating if you possibly can.
I don't want you to avoid him because you obviously have some stuff you need to discuss, I'm just saying do it objectively with skepticism. You can get patronised and preached at in your church.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 9 of 220 (845242)
12-13-2018 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by AZPaul3
12-13-2018 3:55 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
AZP writes:
Isn't it? And we get to watch and comment/argue about everything going on in this ever-so-public church in which a man searches for his soul while another man is hunting for it.
I know, the way it's set up it's going to be a horrible thing to watch. Poor old Phat doesn't stand a chance, the Sharman will feed him his own soul and Phat will thank him for it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by AZPaul3, posted 12-13-2018 3:55 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 12:01 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 21 by ICANT, posted 12-14-2018 12:47 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 25 of 220 (845351)
12-14-2018 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by ICANT
12-14-2018 12:47 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
ICANT writes:
As far as me converting Phat or you that is not my job.
Phat is already a convert.
But as far as my journey here I am here to gather information. Which you have contributed very little unless I want to use your snide remarks, which you have plenty of.
You are not here to gather information, you're here to preach. The information you have been provided with you've ignored.
It's been amusing watching you wade out of your depth attempting to reconcile genesis with big physics. You've made a lot of silly statements about what scientists are thinking about the universe. You believe you have an understanding of what science is saying yet you don't even understand enough to understand that you know virtually nothing. The understanding is mathematical, not verbal, you can not even start to understand what is being discovered yet you like to think that you can. You're writing a book about it! That should be a hoot.
I have given you an example of a modern hypothesis which indicates that the universe may have always existed. I gave you the actual published research paper, yet you didn't read it did you?
I have some sympathy because it's totally incomprehensible to someone like you - and me - without that level of mathematical ability. Yet you think you can have an opinion; my are you self-important and all knowing! You may impress your congregation Pastor, but I'm afraid you have no clothes. I suppose that comes with the territory.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by ICANT, posted 12-14-2018 12:47 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by ICANT, posted 12-14-2018 2:35 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 28 by ICANT, posted 12-14-2018 2:43 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 29 of 220 (845356)
12-14-2018 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by ICANT
12-14-2018 2:35 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
ICANT writes:
I didn't have anything to do with converting Phat
I didn't say that you did. You're preaching to the converted.
The Holy Spvirit has to do the converting. I had what I thought was converts but I found out that when I converted someone against their will that they were unconverted still. So I can't convert
And yet you send missionaries out to do just that.
Then I have wasted a lot of space on several hard drives.
All the evidence so far seems to confirm it.
Tangle according to your conversations you are as lost and hopeless as anyone I have ever come in contact with etc etc etc
I guess you don't meet many people who answer back in your life do you? We're supposed to fall to our knees and shout hallelujah or amen or some other crap. Sorry Chuck I've seen too many charlatans like you to be impressed by your brand of insanity.
The superstitious nonsense you spout has corrupted minds for generation but luckily you and your kind are dying out and this aberrant crap is dying with you. Tragically, you'll take some with you before you go.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by ICANT, posted 12-14-2018 2:35 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by ICANT, posted 12-15-2018 12:58 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 30 of 220 (845358)
12-14-2018 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by ICANT
12-14-2018 2:43 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
CANT writes:
Yes I read it and many other similar to it.
If you had you wouldn't be talking the nonsense that you're talking. (And of course you can't possibly understand it.)
I also presented that according to the law of entropy the universe could not be eternal according to science.
You presented! The balls of the man. You haven't the faintest idea what science is, what it does or how it does it. Not the faintest. Enlighten us, what are your scientific qualification? How far through school did you get with your mathematics?
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by ICANT, posted 12-14-2018 2:43 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by ICANT, posted 06-18-2020 6:21 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 32 of 220 (845373)
12-15-2018 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by ICANT
12-15-2018 12:58 AM


Re: Tangles Comment
ICANT writes:
We send missionaries out to preach the gospel they like I can not convert anyone. A person has to be drawn by the Holy Spirit when they hear the word and then choose to accept God's offer of a free full pardon.
What disingenuous tosh. You send missionaries to convert.
You can't even recognize evidence even if it comes from Guth or Penrose so how would you know?
As you know, the evidence I was talking about was that you don't have a clue what science is and don't have the capacity or education to understand it. You cherry pick and reject ideas that contradict your religious views and your motivation is to corrupt scientific findings for your own superstitious purposes, you're not interested in 'truth' at all.
At what age did you leave school, did you even go to school?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by ICANT, posted 12-15-2018 12:58 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 54 of 220 (845642)
12-18-2018 11:04 AM


Phat writes:
Some believers maintain that the church need only take care of its own.
Yeh, they'll be the gun-totin', faggot hatin', Trump lovin', education avoidin', self-servin' good ole boys. Let's build a church.
They look like born-again hell fodder to me.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Phat, posted 12-18-2018 11:18 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 56 of 220 (845651)
12-18-2018 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Phat
12-18-2018 11:18 AM


Re: The Good Samaritan Remix
Phat writes:
So tell me, Tangle--do you have any "good" Christian friends?
Yes of course. Pretty much all the people I know would call themselves Christians of some kind. I live in a nominally Christian country so I'm surrounded by them. But of course hardly any of them actually go to church or pray outside of births deaths weddings and the occasional drunken midnight mass at Christmas.
I don't know any Christian of the fundamental, evangelical kind like you see here and they couldn't possibly be a friend of mine.
If so, do you ever discuss religion and spirituality with each other or is that the same as discussing whether the flying spaghetti monster left any noodles for Santa Claus?
That sort of discussion doesn't really happen much - religion here is low key stuff that no one really talks about much; in my circles anyway. There will obviously be 'churchy' types around but as I don't mix with them, there's not much to say.
Ha! I've just remembered that my best friend is a believing Christian that actually does attend church very occasionally. But he's the nice kind that is virtually a deist in his beliefs (which I regard as an atheist lacking conviction.) We hardly ever discuss it as he accepts all modern ideas too. It's just a little foible of his, not his whole bloody life like it appears to be for some.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Phat, posted 12-18-2018 11:18 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 63 of 220 (845727)
12-19-2018 1:14 PM


ICANT writes:
You apparently did not understand the quote this statement follows.
A person is condemned because the man formed from the dust of the ground disobeyed God and ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That disobedience separated God and mankind and also brought with it physical death.
At that point the universe and everything in it or would ever be in it was condemned (separated from God).
A way had to be made to bridge that gap or all would remain condemned.
God took on the form of man and came down to earth in the form of a man we call Jesus and died on the cross to make a way mankind could be reunited with God, as the first man was before he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He should have been call Emmanuel (Mat 1:23) which means God with us but men just refuse to obey God.
So all mankind is condemned.
Mankind continues to be condemned because he has not trusted God to give him eternal life receiving a full pardon for that condemnation.
So when a man/woman accepts God's offer of the free full pardon he/she is no longer condemned.
If they do not receive that free full pardon they remain condemned for eternity.
How can any adult read this and think that it's not a work of total fiction?
It's also utterly immoral, it condemns almost all humanity that's ever lived and will ever live to eternal suffering for no other reason than being born in the wrong time, the wrong place or to the wrong people. Trillions of souls. What a steaming pile of manure. An obvious fabrication.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 12-22-2018 4:33 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 12-23-2018 2:58 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 71 of 220 (845923)
12-22-2018 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Phat
12-22-2018 4:33 PM


Re: Oh What A Tangled Web We Weave
Phat writes:
Awaiting your response to my mention of you (and ringo) in the Great Debate.
I'm not reading that thread anymore Phat, I'm afraid it makes me feel physically sick.
I know you will tell me that I don't understand that you have no vendetta...you simply don't give it all much thought.
I don't know what this refers to so If you want me to answer your questions you'll have to bring them here
Yet note how hostile you get towards ICANT when you rant about his arrogance.
I've explained that I consider ICANT to be a charlatan, selling his primitive superstitions to the vulnerable.
Would you be the same way towards God if he, in fact, existed according to all of the "ridiculous made up myths?"
You do ask the weirdest questions. I expect I would behave the same way that everyone else would. Including the 16th century fake pastor.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 12-22-2018 4:33 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Phat, posted 12-23-2018 3:02 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 74 of 220 (845932)
12-23-2018 3:40 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Phat
12-23-2018 2:58 AM


Re: Why So Many?
Phat writes:
I don't see why. If all that anyone needs to do is trust that God is and is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him it only starts with trust. Why would trillions of souls never think about this in some way?
Because trillions of people have never even heard of your bloody Christ let alone thought the simple-minded story is true!
My point is that it is highly unlikely that so many would refuse a simple consideration.
But it's a simple fact.
According to your pagan pastor everyone that isn't born again (whatever that means) is going to hell. That means all the people born before Christianity was invented and all the people not born to Christian parents and all the people not born in Christian societies and all the people that hear the immoral evils spouted by so-called Chistians and reject them, are going to hell. As if! What crap.
From what I understand, there is nobody who was born in the wrong time or place.
Oh Phat, are you another American that doesn't own a passport?
How many people do you know who have never heard of Jesus or the concept of forgiveness? Nobody can honestly say they didnt know. What they can say is that they gave it little thought. If they died without getting around to thinking about it, I believe that they would have one more opportunity before eternity.
You can believe anything you like, I'm simply reporting the beliefs of your beloved pastor.
Your problem seems to be in insisting that "the product" is worthless.
It's worse than worthless, your pastor's product is revolting and dangerous. If you must buy a product at least buy it off GDR, he's another fantacist but at least his product has decent moral values.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 12-23-2018 2:58 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 12-23-2018 2:26 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 75 of 220 (845933)
12-23-2018 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Phat
12-23-2018 3:02 AM


Re: Oh What A Tangled Web We Weave
Phat writes:
And why are you worried about people being vulnerable to that and not worried about the thousands of other influences?
Who says I'm not worried about other influences?
ICANT is here, now, writing unbelievable crap so he's the one I'm currently posting about.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Phat, posted 12-23-2018 3:02 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 78 of 220 (845949)
12-23-2018 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by ringo
12-23-2018 2:06 PM


Re: Oh What A Tangled Web We Weave
ringo writes:
As for selling his primitive superstitions, not everything is sold for cash. Maybe he's just trying to fuel his monumental ego.
Mostly the latter I think though I suppose he gets paid something by his homemade church. I really hope he's not relying on book sales for his pension.
But, as the saying almost goes, there's one born again every minute.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 12-23-2018 2:06 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
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