Discussion With A Conservative Pastor: I CANT & Phat Only..for now

Do you ever read any of the ongoing arguments that members here engage in or do you ignore them? Just curious...I wouldn't blame you if you did ignore them.

Hi Phat

Phat writes: Do you ever read any of the ongoing arguments that members here engage in or do you ignore them? Just curious...I wouldn't blame you if you did ignore them.

When I have time I read. You can't learn without reading. Neither can you learn if you have a closed mind. There are too many people who know what they believe and they don't want any body to bother them with the facts.
I see a lot of those in the church and I see some here those are a hopeless cause.

God Bless,

RiverRat, in another topic writes: Short story, when I first felt the Holy Spirit I felt something so amazing, so wonderful, so full of love that I wanted to share it with everyone. I wanted to be like Jesus. Offending people was the last thing on my mind. Well, I got a big wake up call as I proceeded the next few years trying to share that love. I found myself offending people with it (especially here). The people being offended probably weren't being offended by me per-say but by their pre-conceived notions and ignorance of where I was coming from. I found out that you can never be non-offensive.

Reminds me of the scripture:

Matt 24:9-11 writes: "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other...

I have my own share, but many members who do criticize me have also become online penpals. J.A.R. was the most persistent. He would argue with me about what the Bible really said. He always asked me if I had ever read it. When I told him that I had, he would give me his own interpretation, which, admittedly, came from a plain reading of the text yet which never matched up to what I had been taught through many Bible Studies. Ringo is the same way, though Ringo often sharpens me when he points out certain things which I gloss over. So I have some questions. Your own critics claim that you don't know science--at least not the methodology that they have been taught. They will claim that you try to arrive at a meaning using common sense and what you see as wisdom based on scriptural interpretations. Faith does the same thing, which is why she is a YEC. I have always respected much of what our members study here, but I can see that they don't trust that something as simple as a confession, commitment, and belief lead to any sort of proof that the truth found in "way,truth, and life" can ever satisfy scientific questioning.

Do you respect the scientific method? Do you understand it?

Do you see limits on what the Bible can teach about science or do you believe that science itself errors by limiting the Bible?

Do you believe that a sincere man who is open to the possibility that God exists and who is open to the possibility that Jesus is/was more than just human will be accepted by God without having to formally go get baptized by a church?

Can you see why the other side argues the way that they do?

I believe in spiritual warfare, as loony as it may sound to some. I had an experience in my past that confirmed my doubts. Some have urged me to reevaluate what I concluded.

Have you ever seen an actual manifestation of demonic activity?

What confirmed it for you?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Hi Phat

Phat writes: Your own critics claim that you don't know science

Actually they claim I don't know what they believe about what science says.

They are correct as they don't have websites and published papers I can read and learn what their version of science is. They sure don't present any objective, verifiable, evidence for anything just bluster and assertions.

Something is scientifically verifiable if it can be tested and proven to be true.

How do you test anything that took place 13.7 billion years in the past?

But according to these guys nothing can be proven true.

Phat writes: and what you see as wisdom based on scriptural interpretations.

quote:

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Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

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Faith writes: Faith does the same thing, which is why she is a YEC.

Faith is a YEC because she has believed the devils lie like Eve did in the garden. Faith is too blind to understand what the Bible says and she believes the teaching of a bunch of wolves in sheep's clothing.

Phat writes: Do you respect the scientific method? Do you understand it?

Phat it it wasn't for science we would still be riding in wagons pulled by mules or horses. There would be no automobiles, airplanes, trains, buses, telephones, computers, TV's, glasses I wear, teeth I eat with, artificial joints I have in my legs, and all the other convenience's we have. So yes I respect science.

Sir Roger Penrose don't understand what we been talking about the last few days. He is one of the most prominent physics there is, so why should I understand it.

I understand the universe exists.
I understand that according to scientific laws (entropy) the universe can't be eternal.
I understand because of that the universe had to have a beginning to exist.
I understand the universe can not begin to exist from non existence.

Yet so called scientist and wannabe's want me to believe it did. They have contrived all kinds of ways that the universe could begin to exist. Hartley/Hawking devised the instanton, that they said if it appeared it would create just such a universe as ours. But for particles to appear seemingly out of nowhere requires a vacuum to exist in. There was no existence so where would the vacuum exist?

Two branes crashing together has been proposed but no place for them to exist in has been proposed. Penrose says string theory is a Fashion

I understand the standard theory requires inflation which Penrose says is a fantasy.

I understand the standard theory requires dark matter and dark energy in order to exist. Yet none has ever been found. But without it the universe would fly apart, therefore it must exist.

I understand the standard theory has many problems listed below.
"The flatness problem."
"The horizon problem"
"The density fluctuation problem"
"The exotic relics problem"
"The thermal state problem"
"The cosmological constant problem"
"The singularity problem"
"The timescale problem"
You can find all those listed here

Inflation was invented to solve most of these problems.

Phat writes: Do you see limits on what the Bible can teach about science or do you believe that science itself errors by limiting the Bible?

Mans interpretation is the problem.

The Original manuscripts of the Bible makes no mistake and is perfect but we only have copies, of copies, of copies, of copies, of copies etc. Mankind made all those copies. But where it speaks of scientific things it makes no mistakes but it is not a science book.

To me science is trying to figure out how God did it.

As I have said before:

The standard theory says the universe had a beginning. It does not tell us anything about how the universe began to exist. It only tries to explain what man think's happened from T=0 ^-43 until now. Man has changed his mind several times over the years.

The Bible tells us God created the heavens and the earth in one light period. Genesis 2:4 The Bible gives us the history of that light period in genesis 2:5-4:24.

Hubble told us the universe was expanding.
The Bible tells us God stretched out the heavens.

Science discovered the earth was circular after they thought it was flat.
The Bible tells us God sits on the circle of the earth.

Science tells us gravity keeps the parts of the universe where they are.
The Bible tells us God placed them where they are and even named the stars. Job 26:7, 9:9 Psalm 147:4, 8:3.

So as you see I believe science and the Bible agree.

Phat writes: Do you believe that a sincere man who is open to the possibility that God exists and who is open to the possibility that Jesus is/was more than just human will be accepted by God

Short answer No.
Long answer: changing your wording.

A man must believe that God is and the He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. Not my rules but His.

quote:

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Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

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You can not question His existence. You must by faith believe that He does exist. You must believe by faith that He will give you eternal life when you trust Him to do so. Then all you do is receive His free full pardon.

Phat writes: without having to formally go get baptized by a church?

Baptism and church membership are not required to go to heaven.

The thief on the cross never went to church and was not baptized and Jesus told him "today shalt thou be with me in Paradise". I can not disagree with Jesus.

But I believe to be in the Bride of Christ, you have to be born again, baptized and a faithful member of a scriptural new testament church, looking and longing for His return, but until then busy about His business.

Phat writes: Can you see why the other side argues the way that they do?

Sure I can. If I didn't I wouldn't be preaching. When I preach I try to introduce my audience to my friend.

People who have never met my friend in person can not understand why I do what I do. I have met Him, I have talked with Him, I have touched Him, and He had touched me and made something out of my life. Had it not been for Him I would probably be dead from drinking as I am an acholic from birth. But God changed my lifestyle. He gave me something to live for.

Phat writes: I believe in spiritual warfare, as loony as it may sound to some.

I have a constant fight with my old worldly body it wants to do things that are not pleasing to God. So I like Paul have to keep my body under subjection.

Phat writes: Have you ever seen an actual manifestation of demonic activity?

In my lifetime I have had encounters with 2 demons. In the name of Jesus they departed from their host.

Phat writes: What confirmed it for you?

Raving manic became calm and in their right mind.

God Bless,

One of the biggest arguments which we have had at EvC among those who claim to be believers is the argument over works vs Belief as a means to salvation.

How do you interpret the following scripture?

James 2:14-17 writes: 14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. NIV

Lets compare the KJV:

James 2:14-17 writes: 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. KJV

In addition, it has recently been brought up that in the parable of the Good Samaritan, help was extended beyond the immediate group. Some believers maintain that the church need only take care of its own. Comments?

…oops…

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Thanks, Tangle.

I will say that there is a lot of merit in jar and ringos argument regarding the sheep and the goat's judgment. Even if Christians believe and subjectively *know* that they are saved, it does no harm to humble oneself and reevaluate ones behavior towards others in this world.

God loves humility and introspection leading towards repentance but He despises Pride.

Edited by Phat, : threw in a good message.

Do'h - soz..

ICANT writes: Let me address this a little and if you want to discuss it more bring it up in the debate.

Here it is, and for the sake of this point, allow me to represent the mindset that I believe is at EvC as well as voicing my own belief on the matter. I think I understand how both sides think---both sides meaning the believers and the unbelievers. You, of course, would logically argue that since God is an undeniable fact (Romans 1:18) that it is wise to consider reality from how He likely thinks about such issues...which is, of course, why you are a Pastor. Anyway...allow me to continue and see if I can get this post out... it's 630 am and I must leave in twenty minutes to attend an all-day union meeting. I have been fasting since noon on Monday and feel surprisingly vibrant and full of energy, though my critics will call me an old lightheaded fool!~

ICANT writes: There is very little difference between me and Tangle. We are both sinners. But there is a difference. Tangle is a lost sinner and I am a saved sinner.

Which is, I would imagine, the entire purpose of the Great Commission. It is why you teach your flock to go out and reach the lost. To us, Jesus Christ is good news...the best, in fact. To the lost, He is just another figure in History who may not even be the way that the literature described Him as. Thus, for you to introduce Him as your friend, they would have to essentially trust or believe you in order to even consider His acquaintance.

Matthew 10:40 writes: He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

I did not get a glorified body that did not commit sin when I was born again only my spirit was born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption Neither of us was condemned because we sinned. Mankind was condemned because the man formed from the dust of the ground disobeyed God and ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Most of them know what they claim is the sales pitch. They understand what it is that we believe. They may have some trouble accepting that God exists, largely because they see God as a creation of the literature and human belief of the time. They would argue why such a Deity would need to condemn people simply for not believing in Him. Moreover, they would wonder why such a Deity needed to have to die to pay the sin debt of humanity when it was the Deity who initially created the rules in the first place. From our standpoint, God loves everyone at EvC every bit as much as He has loved and adopted your flock and my family. Critics would read the Bible and point out that God seems to want to kill a lot of people...and they wonder what good it would do to accept such a God or to receive Him.

Tangle is still condemned because he does not believe in God and therefore has never trusted God to save him from the bondage he was sold into.

It is true that Tangle considers all of this made up. Keep in mind, however, that Tangle would need to trust the salesman before accepting the sale. If he does not receive the message, it is likely because he does not trust the messenger.

I, on the other hand, believe in God and have trusted Him to save me and give me eternal life. So I received a full pardon and am justified before God. But I am still a sinner. That is a battle I have to fight on a daily basis. I just have to try to get better every day.

We all do, Pastor. Comments?

Hi Phat

Phat writes: They would argue why such a Deity would need to condemn people simply for not believing in Him.

You apparently did not understand the quote this statement follows.

A person is condemned because the man formed from the dust of the ground disobeyed God and ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That disobedience separated God and mankind and also brought with it physical death.

At that point the universe and everything in it or would ever be in it was condemned (separated from God).

A way had to be made to bridge that gap or all would remain condemned.

God took on the form of man and came down to earth in the form of a man we call Jesus and died on the cross to make a way mankind could be reunited with God, as the first man was before he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He should have been call Emmanuel (Mat 1:23) which means God with us but men just refuse to obey God.

So all mankind is condemned.
Mankind continues to be condemned because he has not trusted God to give him eternal life receiving a full pardon for that condemnation.

So when a man/woman accepts God's offer of the free full pardon he/she is no longer condemned.

If they do not receive that free full pardon they remain condemned for eternity.

Phat writes: If he does not receive the message, it is likely because he does not trust the messenger.

A person, Tangle does not receive the message because they do not hear the message. The messenger does not matter. They can pick up a Bible and read the gospel and get saved without anyone talking too them. If a person wants to find the answer, will read the book of John KJV Bible the Holy Spirit will speak to them and draw them to a conclusion. If He does not draw them they will not receive the message no matter how many time they read it or listen too it.

Phat writes: We all do, Pastor.

I know a lot of so called Christians who disagree that they are just a sinner saved by grace. They don't believe they are a sinner.

God Bless,

What do you think of Calvinism? How about Mid Acts Dispensationalism?

ICANT writes: A person is condemned because the man formed from the dust of the ground disobeyed God and ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That disobedience separated God and mankind and also brought with it physical death.

Critics would point out that the first man and woman wouldn't have known any better. After all, did they initially know God? Were they given an understanding of who He was and what they were expected to do in life or did they just disobey out of curiosity?

ICANT writes: God took on the form of man and came down to earth in the form of a man we call Jesus and died on the cross to make a way mankind could be reunited with God, as the first man was before he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He should have been call Emmanuel (Mat 1:23) which means God with us but men just refuse to obey God.

What happens if we received the free full pardon and asked God into our hearts but later on again disobeyed God? I would think that all Christians have disobeyed Him at least once. Critics argue that since Christians believe they are forgiven they are not as worried about sinning or disobedience.

Finally...lets take Stile as an example. He chooses to not believe, but is a good person.

Yes, I know we all sin...but aside from that, what if a person such as Stile did as many good works as the members of your flock? Why would God punish him simply for not believing? Seems as if that gives too much power to satans influence after the Fall. And finally, if God created a free-willed Lucifer who chose to rebel and become satan, isnt evil indirectly Gods fault?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Hi Phat

Phat writes: What do you think of Calvinism? How about Mid Acts Dispensationalism?

I don't think much of Calvinism. John Calvin had some beliefs that others did not go along with so he started his own church and taught some things there were not in the Bible.

My aunt was a pastor of a Calvinist belief church. I will always remember her telling me that whatever is to be will be even if it don't ever happen. I couldn't figure that one out.

I had heard of dispensationalism but never Mid Acts dispensationalism.

It seems like they want to do the right thing but when studying the Bible and rightly dividing it. They believe you should not eliminate one word, syllable or punctuation from the complete sacred text.

I don't know how you can really understand the Bible much less rightly divide it, if you don't know it did not have punctuation marks in the original. It did not have sentences, paragraphs or chapters. Those came along around 1100 AD.

Phat writes: Critics would point out that the first man and woman wouldn't have known any better. After all, did they initially know God? Were they given an understanding of who He was and what they were expected to do in life or did they just disobey out of curiosity?

The woman did not have to know anything. The man was the one who was ordered not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The man formed from the dust of the ground was smart enough to know if you are told not to do something you better not do it. That man was not a modern man as we are he was created formed and made and was perfect in every way. He was smart enough to be able to name all the animals.

That man was there when God planted the garden in Eden.

He was there when God formed the animals, fowl, and every beast of the field.

He knew God took a part out of him and made a woman.

When he had witnessed all those things I think he would know he should do what God said.

Phat writes: What happens if we received the free full pardon and asked God into our hearts but later on again disobeyed God? I would think that all Christians have disobeyed Him at least once.

If only once God would be well pleased. But we disobey Him every day many times.

If a person had to earn their free full pardon it would not be a free full pardon. But if you had to earn it and you sinned you would lose it because you was not earning your eternal life.

But when a person is born again they receive eternal life. Now you tell me what you would have to do for that life to cease to be?

Eternal if from now on and anytime that becomes now.

Phat writes: Critics argue that since Christians believe they are forgiven they are not as worried about sinning or disobedience.

The people trying to live a life like Christ that I know worry about disobeying God a lot more than they did when they were lost.

Phat writes: Finally...lets take Stile as an example. He chooses to not believe, but is a good person.

But being a good person is not being born again. And as long as he does not believe God is, and will do what He says He will do and accepts His offer of a free full pardon he will be lost and spend eternity in the lake of fire with the devil.

To receive salvation and be born again does not require any works at all.

But Paul said it best.

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2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

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Saved by grace through faith.
NOT OF WORKS
But saved people who are born again will work.

quote:

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10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

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There is no wiggle room in verse 27. It says we will follow him if we are His sheep. If we don't follow Him we are probably goats.

Notice Jesus says in verse 28 He gives them (His sheep) eternal life. You can't earn a gift. He also says they will never perish.

Phat writes: Lucifer who chose to rebel and become satan, isnt evil indirectly Gods fault?

Lucifer the word does not come from a Hebrew word it comes from a Latin word. (Product of the Catholic Church). Lucifer is used in the Bible 1 time and is talking about a man who happens to be a king. Read the text in Isaiah Isa 14:12 and apply rules I gave for understanding the Bible.

Isaiah records in verse 16 " Is this the man that made the earth to tremble,"

Satan was never under grace and so he has never fallen. He still roams the halls of heaven, and will until the end time.

God Bless,

ICANT writes: Satan was never under grace and so he has never fallen. He still roams the halls of heaven, and will until the end time.

Interesting. Let me pin this belief down a little more. First, our critics will argue that not all of these beliefs are firmly rooted in the Bible. They point to the whole original sin doctrine. They also mention that many Christian beliefs came from Milton and Dante. But lets get hypothetical, back to the angels. OK.
So 2/3 stayed with God and 1/3 fell. In a sense, the 1/3 represented the very essence of what free will means for humans. They were allowed to disagree. Just as humans are allowed to question, challenge, and even ignore God.

So were 1/3 not under Grace? Implying that God kept the 2/3 by His Grace? Or did all of the angels have free will and, if so, was it just destiny that 1/3 fell and 2/3 stayed loyal?

So along comes humans. You claim that Adam had essentially the same choice as the angels. He walked with God. Thus he must have known Gods character. His sin was in allowing his wife to make her own choices? Or....what specifically?? And was it all meant to happen anyway, or did God say "oops...now I need Jesus"?

In other words, was Jesus plan A from the beginning or was Jesus a necessary plan B after the Fall?

Phat writes: I do not doubt that Jesus is alive today. I do not doubt that He died for me, (for all of us) was buried, and rose again on the 3rd day. What I DO question is why God would have done it that way. In ways, the stories don't make sense in light of what we know today.

ICANT writes: Do you question why or do just not understand why God would do things the way He did?

I don't fully understand. And to be honest, I firmly believe that it is OK to not understand. It is OK to question what I have been taught. I have chosen to take a stand in faith not to doubt it. I believe that I owe God my trust. Critics are not so sure. They not only question. They doubt. They often convince themselves through study that God does not exist. A product of human invention. I do not believe as they do.
Jar is (again) the one who attempted to introduce doubt in my mind. And one particular behavior that jar did which causes me to question his spirit is the fact that he violently opposed you. Insulted you. Denigrated you. Many of your opponents do likewise.

Google Dictionary writes: verb verb denigrate 3rd person present denigrates past tense denigrated past participle denigrated gerund or present participle denigrating criticize unfairly; disparage. disparage belittle deprecate decry cast aspersions on criticize attack speak ill of give someone a bad name defame slander libel run down abuse insult revile malign vilify slur badmouth dis pull to pieces talk smack

Now...I can understand why you frustrate the science minded ones when you dialogue with them. They were taught critical thinking yet were not taught that the Bible has any worth or value. You were taught this. But I have a suspicion that what we see is a bit of spiritual war. The inner spirits. Anyway...back to jar. This is a summation of some things he has said here at EvC over the years:

jar writes: I do believe that Jesus is GOD but while he was here on earth He was fully man, human, just like you, just like me. I think lots of folk misunderstand the term incarnate. They have, if they even really think about it at all, some idea of incarnate means "God in Human Form" as though it was some costume GOD put on so he could sneak around and spy on the humans. That makes as little sense theologically IMHO as the idea that Jesus let himself be killed as some blood sacrifice. Jesus was a teacher. The information we have all says that everything he did during his life was to teach people. If the message was as some have said, that his followers are saved and the bad guys are gonna get it, Jesus lives the wrong story. In that story when it came time to lay hands on Him He would have swung around, flapped open his oilskin slicker, drawn his trusty Ivory handled six-guns, mowed down the Clancy Brothers and rid out of town leaving behind one silver bullet and on the ears of the wind, a hearty "Hi-Ho Silver, Away". But Jesus is not some Masked Man. The power of the Jesus saga is that He is human. A God cannot be tempted, Jesus was. And Jesus resisted. And the message is "humans can resist evil". A God cannot be threated, Jesus was. And Jesus did not respond with more violence. And the message is "humans can try to find ways other than violence". A God cannot die, Jesus did. And Jesus rose from the dead. And the message is "all humans will rise from the dead". Just as I believe that we must be honest about the great Evil that Christians have done in the past and that Christians are doing now, I believe we must also be honest about what the message was. It is not that Christians are saved and everyone else is damned. It is that GOD gave us in the life of Jesus a clear lesson of what a human should do, and more importantly, can do.

Note the part about all humans being saved. Jar taught that Christianity is about what we do and not primarily about what we believe. Ringo agrees, teaching that the message to go and do is a truth unto itself. jar concurred.

jar writes: Well, even if the whole Bible is no more than tales told around the campfire the message is still of value.

No God required. You, on the other hand, revere and value the Bible as Gods message to humanity. My jury is still out. I believe that Jesus is alive and real. That He is God incarnate. But as for the Bible, I question it. I do believe Genesis 1:1 however.

Jar also mentioned a few other things that stuck in my head. To wit:

jar writes: But that is not to say that Christianity as I see it is easy. I don't see all the copouts, benefits and "get out of hell free cards" that many Christians seem to think exist. You don't get to blame problems on some Fall, or claim the "devil made you do it" or know that you are saved just cause you "believe". You also have to try to live the life. But GOD knows we are humans just as Jesus knew that Peter would fail, or Thomas would doubt or that folk would worry if there was enough Low Country Boil to feed all the guests. Jesus didn't punish Peter for failing to walk on water, He was probably pleased and surprised Peter got as far as he did. He held Peter up, led him back to the boat and calmed the winds. GOD is like that. Like a parent watching a child when the training wheels first come off, GOD knows we will likely fail, and GOD will be there to help us up when we fall over, get us back on the bike and watch us try again. One day we might even get the hang of it and that taste of freedom when you take your first ride and the wind is blowing in your face and your hair is flying and you are out of sight of the house and you can go anywhere, is something you will always cherish. And whether you know it or not, a parent is watching through the curtains, maybe even a tear of joy in the old mans eye. The otherside of Christianity as I see it is that just like learning to ride the bike, YOU have to do it. There are NO training wheels like the Fall or Satan or Knowledge that YOU are Saved to hold you up. GOD sent us the message that we all start out saved. Atheist, Agnostic, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Taoist, Satanist, Wiccan, Buddhist, or Anamist, all start even. When you die though you will be judged. And you will be judged individually, uniquely, against yourself. Did you try to do what is right and not do what is wrong? You won't be able to say that "The world is filled with sin" or "We are all Fallen" or "The Sins of Adam" or even "I'm a Christian". None of those will carry any weight. The judgement will be on what you did and what you might have done, and the Judge will have perfect knowledge of both.

So again, the argument is whether what we DO matters more than what we BELIEVE. Comments?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Hi Phat

Phat writes: Interesting. Let me pin this belief down a little more. First, our critics will argue that not all of these beliefs are firmly rooted in the Bible.

Over the last 70 years I have had many people make the statement the Bible says...….etc. When in fact the Bible says no such thing they are repeating something that they have heard and accepted as truth.

This is not just limited to the religious bunch. The scientific people have been taught things that they believe is the truth. Although I have been told recently that there is no absolute truth in science. Even the universe may not exist as I might be hallucinating. I would probably be told that I may or may not exist as I could be hallucinating. But something would be existing to do the hallucinating.

Back to what people believe about the devil.
Many believe he was the choir director in heaven.
Many believe he is a fallen arch angel.
Many believe he has been cast out of heaven.
Many believe 1/3 of the angels followed him.

Lets examine those claims and why we have them.

There is zero evidence for the devil being the choir director.

Jude 1:9 talks about Michael being an arch angel. No other is mentioned anywhere in the Bible. The word archangel is used only two times in the Bible. The other time is 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and is talking about Jesus coming with shout of the voice of an archangel. So we can rule out the devil being a fallen archangel.

The fall of the devil was a part of the gap theory which has been around since the first century AD. The belief was that the devil sinned and was cast out of heaven to the earth and 1/3 of the angels followed him. This will happen in the future but has not taken place yet.

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Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

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This is still a future event. The devil was still in heaven during the lifetime of Job. Job 1:7, 2:2.
He was still there when the brethren were killed during the tribulation period.

So the devil is yet to be cast out of heaven in the end of the Great tribulation period. 1/3 of the angels will follow him and they will have a war with Michael and his angels with Michael winning. Michael is the most powerful angel and deserved the title archangel. All others are subservient to him.

The mistaken idea that Lucifer is the devil comes from Isaiah 14:3 where Isaiah was to take up a proverb against the king of Babylon.
This king was ruthless and had got too big for his britches thinking he was equal to God. I have met a few of those in my lifetime. Read the text and you will find out that the text is talking about a man not an angel.

Ezekiel 28:1-19 Ezekiel was to deliver a message to the prince of Tyrus which died is used to support the devil being cast down. The narrative is about a man not the devil.

So where did the devil come from and how did he become evil.
Isaiah 45:7 tells us that God created evil. The devil is the father of all evil therefore he was created evil. He has never fallen from anything as he is doing exactly what he was created to do. He was created to give mankind a choice. Without the devil being evil there would only be good and mankind would never have known good and evil.

I have been asked how could the devil be in the presence of God when accusing Job and the other brethren with sin in his life. Well he has not sinned as he has done exactly what he was created to do. And he is doing it very well. 1/3 of the angels are his helpers who are usually referred to as demon spirits.

I hope that clears up the devil situation for you.

Phat writes: So were 1/3 not under Grace? Implying that God kept the 2/3 by His Grace? Or did all of the angels have free will and, if so, was it just destiny that 1/3 fell and 2/3 stayed loyal?

Angels have never had a choice and have never been under grace. They have always done exactly what they were created for.

Had they had the choice of obey or not to obey (freewill) there would have been no reason for mankind. Everything created has done exactly what they were created for except mankind and they are the only entity created with the ability to make a choice as to whether they will obey God or not obey God.

Phat writes: So along comes humans. You claim that Adam had essentially the same choice as the angels.

First thing ADAM is not the name of a man. It is the transliteration of the Hebrew word אדם with two added vowels of the Masoretes. The word means man, mankind.

The man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7 is the only creature of any kind that has ever had the ability to exercise his freewill concerning good and evil. He caused all mankind to be under the penalty of sin, which is separation from God and physical death.

The only choice you have is to accept what God has offered through the death on the cross to reunite mankind to fellowship with God. Restoring mankind to the position the man formed from the dust of the ground had when placed in the garden. The man heard God's voice in the garden after he had eaten the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He knew who was speaking to him so they had apparently talked before this occasion.

So no the man had choices the angels never had.

Phat writes: In other words, was Jesus plan A from the beginning or was Jesus a necessary plan B after the Fall?

There was never a plan B.

Before the universe existed it was determined that the sacrifice on the cross would take place.

If the man in the garden had never eaten of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would still be in the garden walking and talking with God and you and I would not be having this conversation as we would not exist.

Now why did the man eat the fruit? It seems he believed God that the day he ate the fruit he would die. He also though that extended to his wife who was never commanded not to eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

When she came to him and told him she had eaten the fruit he thought he had to make a decision. She had eaten the fruit and was going to die. Leaving him alone with nothing but the animals and God. He made the choice concerning what he said a man would do for his wife in Genesis 2:24 where he said: "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh".

In other words a man would give up everything for his wife. She was going to die and leave him alone so he willfully chose to eat the fruit and die with her rather than live in the garden with just the animals and God to talk to.

Phat writes: I don't fully understand. And to be honest, I firmly believe that it is OK to not understand.

Isaiah quotes God as saying in Isa. 55:8

quote:

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For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

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God will give us what we can handle at the moment. When we grow He will add more understand to our knowledge.

Phat writes: And one particular behavior that jar did which causes me to question his spirit is the fact that he violently opposed you. Insulted you. Denigrated you. Many of your opponents do likewise.

I am going to let John expound on that point.

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John
15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

15:21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.

15:23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.

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As you can see it comes with the territory. You said you could not understand why I was still here. Well they need to hear it whether it affects their lives or not.

Phat writes: Now...I can understand why you frustrate the science minded ones when you dialogue with them.

I frustrate them because they do not have answers to the questions I ask. Look at AZPaul's posts recently to me and point out any real evidence he has presented to support his view. He has made a lot of assertions but presented no physical evidence or supporting evidence.
They have even come to the conclusion there can be no truth.

Phat writes: No God required. You, on the other hand, revere and value the Bible as Gods message to humanity. My jury is still out. I believe that Jesus is alive and real. That He is God incarnate. But as for the Bible, I question it. I do believe Genesis 1:1 however.

The KJV Bible I use is not perfect. Mankind has been copying copy's of it for years. All you have to do is look at the new translation and see that man has tried to change the text to suit their particular belief's throughout the years.

That is why I studied the original languages of the Bible and have continued to study them for the past 50+ years. I can read the dead sea scrolls which I have copies of and compare to the other texts I have available to me. I have a scholars edition of Logos Bible software where I have access to millions of books to study. And thousands of scholars to study behind.

But the most important tool I have is the Holy Spirit as I depend on Him to lead me in all truth. So much study and prayer are involved in a study of God's Word.

Phat writes: Note the part about all humans being saved. Jar taught that Christianity is about what we do and not primarily about what we believe.

Christianity and being born again are two different things.
A person has to be born again before they can be a Christian.
But jar is trying to be a Christian without being born again as he believe all are saved and have to get lost by doing bad deeds.

The word Christian is in the Bible 2 times and Christians 1 time.

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Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

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1 Peter 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

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Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

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These people were called little cristos because they were living a life like Christ and it was meant to be a derogatory term.

Phat writes: So again, the argument is whether what we DO matters more than what we BELIEVE. Comments?

First you must be born again and receive the Holy Spirit to lead you in all truth. Without having the Spirit there is no way to receive or understand the Word of God.

But when you are born again you are literally bought and paid for by the debt paid for you on the cross of Calvary.

Since you are bought and paid for you should do what you are told to do. Not in order to be born again but because you are a born again bought and paid for child of the King.

jar and many other want to feel important in the decision and thus try to place the works of mankind above the sacrifice God made for them making His sacrifice of non effect.

If we could have pleased God by our works He would not have had to come down here and die on the cross. So their works and belief in them make fun of God's sacrifice.

God Bless,

That was a great explanation of a lot of things! The only thing that the critics have left is that the Bible was written, edited,and redacted by humans and is thus not the living word. The way that you explain it, however, makes it believable.

I never understood why God created evil but now it appears to make sense. We really do have a decision to make. We have several who claim to be Christians here at EvC and we have a Deist(Ringo) who claims to follow the message while being unconvinced of the need to be a Christian. He has challenged me in many of my comfort zones, however. I am scared to lose my material comforts in life. I am scared to have to suffer. I DO love Jesus, however, and am unafraid to follow Him. I'm just not sure what road of suffering He wants me to travel. Nor do I trust many of the religious in this world.

Plus, I feel now more than ever for my EvC online friends such as Stile. He seems like such a nice person. Why on earth would God burn him up simply for not believing? The critics would agree, and say that organized religion is brainwashing people. You must admit that in many cases it does...all for lining the pockets of some televangelist or 501C3 organization. And I think that many conservative American Christians equate rightwing political ideology with Gods plan. And that the Left are tools of Satan. Faith seems to believe this.
I confess that I get mad at her, Pastor. She is such a bad advertisement for Christianity!

And unbelievers such as Stile seem like such good advertisements for God and free will also. But tell me...can we ever have both, or is accepting God making a definite choice? And politically speaking, in your opinion is the Right any better than the Left or is everybody simply human and fallen...in need of a savior?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.