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Author | Topic: Discussion With A Conservative Pastor: I CANT & Phat Only..for now | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 16087 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: |
Do you ever read any of the ongoing arguments that members here engage in or do you ignore them? Just curious...I wouldn't blame you if you did ignore them.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
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ICANT Member (Idle past 270 days) Posts: 6426 From: SSC Joined: |
Hi Phat
When I have time I read. You can't learn without reading. Neither can you learn if you have a closed mind. There are too many people who know what they believe and they don't want any body to bother them with the facts. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Phat Member Posts: 16087 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: |
I have my own share, but many members who do criticize me have also become online penpals. J.A.R. was the most persistent. He would argue with me about what the Bible really said. He always asked me if I had ever read it. When I told him that I had, he would give me his own interpretation, which, admittedly, came from a plain reading of the text yet which never matched up to what I had been taught through many Bible Studies. Ringo is the same way, though Ringo often sharpens me when he points out certain things which I gloss over. So I have some questions. Your own critics claim that you don't know science--at least not the methodology that they have been taught. They will claim that you try to arrive at a meaning using common sense and what you see as wisdom based on scriptural interpretations. Faith does the same thing, which is why she is a YEC. I have always respected much of what our members study here, but I can see that they don't trust that something as simple as a confession, commitment, and belief lead to any sort of proof that the truth found in "way,truth, and life" can ever satisfy scientific questioning. Do you respect the scientific method? Do you understand it? Do you see limits on what the Bible can teach about science or do you believe that science itself errors by limiting the Bible? Do you believe that a sincere man who is open to the possibility that God exists and who is open to the possibility that Jesus is/was more than just human will be accepted by God without having to formally go get baptized by a church? Can you see why the other side argues the way that they do? I believe in spiritual warfare, as loony as it may sound to some. I had an experience in my past that confirmed my doubts. Some have urged me to reevaluate what I concluded. Have you ever seen an actual manifestation of demonic activity? What confirmed it for you? Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
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ICANT Member (Idle past 270 days) Posts: 6426 From: SSC Joined:
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Hi Phat
Actually they claim I don't know what they believe about what science says. They are correct as they don't have websites and published papers I can read and learn what their version of science is. They sure don't present any objective, Something is scientifically verifiable if it can be tested and proven to be true. How do you test anything that took place 13.7 billion years in the past? But according to these guys nothing can be proven true.
quote:
Faith is a YEC because she has believed the devils lie like Eve did in the garden. Faith is too blind to understand what the Bible says and she believes the teaching of a bunch of wolves in sheep's clothing.
Phat it it wasn't for science we would still be riding in wagons pulled by mules or horses. There would be no automobiles, airplanes, trains, buses, telephones, computers, TV's, glasses I wear, teeth I eat with, artificial joints I have in my legs, and all the other convenience's we have. So yes I respect science. Sir Roger Penrose don't understand what we been talking about the last few days. He is one of the most prominent physics there is, so why should I understand it. I understand the universe exists. Yet so called scientist and wannabe's want me to believe it did. They have contrived all kinds of ways that the universe could begin to exist. Hartley/Hawking devised the instanton, that they said if it appeared it would create just such a universe as ours. But for particles to appear seemingly out of nowhere requires a vacuum to exist in. There was no existence so where would the vacuum exist? Two branes crashing together has been proposed but no place for them to exist in has been proposed. Penrose says string theory is a Fashion I understand the standard theory requires inflation which Penrose says is a fantasy. I understand the standard theory requires dark matter and dark energy in order to exist. Yet none has ever been found. But without it the universe would fly apart, therefore it must exist. I understand the standard theory has many problems listed below. Inflation was invented to solve most of these problems.
Mans interpretation is the problem. The Original manuscripts of the Bible makes no mistake and is perfect but we only have copies, of copies, of copies, of copies, of copies etc. Mankind made all those copies. But where it speaks of scientific things it makes no mistakes but it is not a science book. To me science is trying to figure out how God did it. As I have said before: The standard theory says the universe had a beginning. It does not tell us anything about how the universe began to exist. It only tries to explain what man think's happened from T=0 -43 until now. Man has changed his mind several times over the years. The Bible tells us God created the heavens and the earth in one light period. Genesis 2:4 The Bible gives us the history of that light period in genesis 2:5-4:24. Hubble told us the universe was expanding. Science discovered the earth was circular after they thought it was flat. Science tells us gravity keeps the parts of the universe where they are. So as you see I believe science and the Bible agree.
Short answer No. A man must believe that God is and the He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. Not my rules but His. quote: You can not question His existence. You must by faith believe that He does exist. You must believe by faith that He will give you eternal life when you trust Him to do so. Then all you do is receive His free full pardon.
Baptism and church membership are not required to go to heaven. The thief on the cross never went to church and was not baptized and Jesus told him "today shalt thou be with me in Paradise". I can not disagree with Jesus. But I believe to be in the Bride of Christ, you have to be born again, baptized and a faithful member of a scriptural new testament church, looking and longing for His return, but until then busy about His business.
Sure I can. If I didn't I wouldn't be preaching. When I preach I try to introduce my audience to my friend. People who have never met my friend in person can not understand why I do what I do. I have met Him, I have talked with Him, I have touched Him, and He had touched me and made something out of my life. Had it not been for Him I would probably be dead from drinking as I am an acholic from birth. But God changed my lifestyle. He gave me something to live for.
I have a constant fight with my old worldly body it wants to do things that are not pleasing to God. So I like Paul have to keep my body under subjection.
In my lifetime I have had encounters with 2 demons. In the name of Jesus they departed from their host.
Raving manic became calm and in their right mind. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Phat Member Posts: 16087 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: |
One of the biggest arguments which we have had at EvC among those who claim to be believers is the argument over works vs Belief as a means to salvation.
How do you interpret the following scripture?
Lets compare the KJV:
In addition, it has recently been brought up that in the parable of the Good Samaritan, help was extended beyond the immediate group. Some believers maintain that the church need only take care of its own. Comments? Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
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Tangle Member Posts: 8579 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 2.9 |
…oops…
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Phat Member Posts: 16087 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: |
Thanks, Tangle.
![]() ![]() I will say that there is a lot of merit in jar and ringos argument regarding the sheep and the goat's judgment. Even if Christians believe and subjectively *know* that they are saved, it does no harm to humble oneself and reevaluate ones behavior towards others in this world. God loves humility and introspection leading towards repentance but He despises Pride. Edited by Phat, : threw in a good message. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
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Tangle Member Posts: 8579 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 2.9
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Do'h - soz..
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Phat Member Posts: 16087 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: |
![]()
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
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ICANT Member (Idle past 270 days) Posts: 6426 From: SSC Joined: |
Hi Phat
You apparently did not understand the quote this statement follows. A person is condemned because the man formed from the dust of the ground disobeyed God and ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That disobedience separated God and mankind and also brought with it physical death. At that point the universe and everything in it or would ever be in it was condemned (separated from God). A way had to be made to bridge that gap or all would remain condemned. God took on the form of man and came down to earth in the form of a man we call Jesus and died on the cross to make a way mankind could be reunited with God, as the first man was before he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He should have been call Emmanuel (Mat 1:23) which means God with us but men just refuse to obey God. So all mankind is condemned. So when a man/woman accepts God's offer of the free full pardon he/she is no longer condemned. If they do not receive that free full pardon they remain condemned for eternity.
A person, Tangle does not receive the message because they do not hear the message. The messenger does not matter. They can pick up a Bible and read the gospel and get saved without anyone talking too them. If a person wants to find the answer, will read the book of John KJV Bible the Holy Spirit will speak to them and draw them to a conclusion. If He does not draw them they will not receive the message no matter how many time they read it or listen too it.
I know a lot of so called Christians who disagree that they are just a sinner saved by grace. They don't believe they are a sinner. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Phat Member Posts: 16087 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: |
What do you think of Calvinism? How about Mid Acts Dispensationalism?
Finally...lets take Stile as an example. He chooses to not believe, but is a good person. Yes, I know we all sin...but aside from that, what if a person such as Stile did as many good works as the members of your flock? Why would God punish him simply for not believing? Seems as if that gives too much power to satans influence after the Fall. And finally, if God created a free-willed Lucifer who chose to rebel and become satan, isnt evil indirectly Gods fault? Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
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ICANT Member (Idle past 270 days) Posts: 6426 From: SSC Joined: |
Hi Phat
I don't think much of Calvinism. John Calvin had some beliefs that others did not go along with so he started his own church and taught some things there were not in the Bible. My aunt was a pastor of a Calvinist belief church. I will always remember her telling me that whatever is to be will be even if it don't ever happen. I couldn't figure that one out. I had heard of dispensationalism but never Mid Acts dispensationalism. It seems like they want to do the right thing but when studying the Bible and rightly dividing it. They believe you should not eliminate one word, syllable or punctuation from the complete sacred text. I don't know how you can really understand the Bible much less rightly divide it, if you don't know it did not have punctuation marks in the original. It did not have sentences, paragraphs or chapters. Those came along around 1100 AD.
The woman did not have to know anything. The man was the one who was ordered not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The man formed from the dust of the ground was smart enough to know if you are told not to do something you better not do it. That man was not a modern man as we are he was created formed and made and was perfect in every way. He was smart enough to be able to name all the animals. That man was there when God planted the garden in Eden. He was there when God formed the animals, fowl, and every beast of the field. He knew God took a part out of him and made a woman. When he had witnessed all those things I think he would know he should do what God said.
If only once God would be well pleased. But we disobey Him every day many times. If a person had to earn their free full pardon it would not be a free full pardon. But if you had to earn it and you sinned you would lose it because you was not earning your eternal life. But when a person is born again they receive eternal life. Now you tell me what you would have to do for that life to cease to be? Eternal if from now on and anytime that becomes now.
The people trying to live a life like Christ that I know worry about disobeying God a lot more than they did when they were lost.
But being a good person is not being born again. And as long as he does not believe God is, and will do what He says He will do and accepts His offer of a free full pardon he will be lost and spend eternity in the lake of fire with the devil. To receive salvation and be born again does not require any works at all. But Paul said it best. quote: Saved by grace through faith. quote: There is no wiggle room in verse 27. It says we will follow him if we are His sheep. If we don't follow Him we are probably goats. Notice Jesus says in verse 28 He gives them (His sheep) eternal life. You can't earn a gift. He also says they will never perish.
Lucifer the word does not come from a Hebrew word it comes from a Latin word. (Product of the Catholic Church). Lucifer is used in the Bible 1 time and is talking about a man who happens to be a king. Read the text in Isaiah Isa 14:12 and apply rules I gave for understanding the Bible. Isaiah records in verse 16 " Is this the man that made the earth to tremble," Satan was never under grace and so he has never fallen. He still roams the halls of heaven, and will until the end time. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Phat Member Posts: 16087 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: |
So 2/3 stayed with God and 1/3 fell. In a sense, the 1/3 represented the very essence of what free will means for humans. They were allowed to disagree. Just as humans are allowed to question, challenge, and even ignore God. So were 1/3 not under Grace? Implying that God kept the 2/3 by His Grace? Or did all of the angels have free will and, if so, was it just destiny that 1/3 fell and 2/3 stayed loyal? So along comes humans. You claim that Adam had essentially the same choice as the angels. He walked with God. Thus he must have known Gods character. His sin was in allowing his wife to make her own choices? Or....what specifically?? And was it all meant to happen anyway, or did God say "oops...now I need Jesus"? In other words, was Jesus plan A from the beginning or was Jesus a necessary plan B after the Fall?
Jar is (again) the one who attempted to introduce doubt in my mind. And one particular behavior that jar did which causes me to question his spirit is the fact that he violently opposed you. Insulted you. Denigrated you. Many of your opponents do likewise.
Now...I can understand why you frustrate the science minded ones when you dialogue with them. They were taught critical thinking yet were not taught that the Bible has any worth or value. You were taught this. But I have a suspicion that what we see is a bit of spiritual war. The inner spirits. Anyway...back to jar. This is a summation of some things he has said here at EvC over the years:
Jar also mentioned a few other things that stuck in my head. To wit:
Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
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ICANT Member (Idle past 270 days) Posts: 6426 From: SSC Joined:
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Hi Phat
Over the last 70 years I have had many people make the statement the Bible says...….etc. When in fact the Bible says no such thing they are repeating something that they have heard and accepted as truth. This is not just limited to the religious bunch. The scientific people have been taught things that they believe is the truth. Although I have been told recently that there is no absolute truth in science. Even the universe may not exist as I might be hallucinating. I would probably be told that I may or may not exist as I could be hallucinating. But something would be existing to do the hallucinating. Back to what people believe about the devil. Lets examine those claims and why we have them. There is zero evidence for the devil being the choir director. Jude 1:9 talks about Michael being an arch angel. No other is mentioned anywhere in the Bible. The word archangel is used only two times in the Bible. The other time is 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and is talking about Jesus coming with shout of the voice of an archangel. So we can rule out the devil being a fallen archangel. The fall of the devil was a part of the gap theory which has been around since the first century AD. The belief was that the devil sinned and was cast out of heaven to the earth and 1/3 of the angels followed him. This will happen in the future but has not taken place yet. quote: This is still a future event. The devil was still in heaven during the lifetime of Job. Job 1:7, 2:2. So the devil is yet to be cast out of heaven in the end of the Great tribulation period. 1/3 of the angels will follow him and they will have a war with Michael and his angels with Michael winning. Michael is the most powerful angel and deserved the title archangel. All others are subservient to him. The mistaken idea that Lucifer is the devil comes from Isaiah 14:3 where Isaiah was to take up a proverb against the king of Babylon. Ezekiel 28:1-19 Ezekiel was to deliver a message to the prince of Tyrus which died is used to support the devil being cast down. The narrative is about a man not the devil. So where did the devil come from and how did he become evil. I have been asked how could the devil be in the presence of God when accusing Job and the other brethren with sin in his life. Well he has not sinned as he has done exactly what he was created to do. And he is doing it very well. 1/3 of the angels are his helpers who are usually referred to as demon spirits. I hope that clears up the devil situation for you.
Angels have never had a choice and have never been under grace. They have always done exactly what they were created for. Had they had the choice of obey or not to obey (freewill) there would have been no reason for mankind. Everything created has done exactly what they were created for except mankind and they are the only entity created with the ability to make a choice as to whether they will obey God or not obey God.
First thing ADAM is not the name of a man. It is the transliteration of the Hebrew word אדם with two added vowels of the Masoretes. The word means man, mankind. The man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7 is the only creature of any kind that has ever had the ability to exercise his freewill concerning good and evil. He caused all mankind to be under the penalty of sin, which is separation from God and physical death. The only choice you have is to accept what God has offered through the death on the cross to reunite mankind to fellowship with God. Restoring mankind to the position the man formed from the dust of the ground had when placed in the garden. The man heard God's voice in the garden after he had eaten the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He knew who was speaking to him so they had apparently talked before this occasion. So no the man had choices the angels never had.
There was never a plan B. Before the universe existed it was determined that the sacrifice on the cross would take place. If the man in the garden had never eaten of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would still be in the garden walking and talking with God and you and I would not be having this conversation as we would not exist. Now why did the man eat the fruit? It seems he believed God that the day he ate the fruit he would die. He also though that extended to his wife who was never commanded not to eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. When she came to him and told him she had eaten the fruit he thought he had to make a decision. She had eaten the fruit and was going to die. Leaving him alone with nothing but the animals and God. He made the choice concerning what he said a man would do for his wife in Genesis 2:24 where he said: "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh". In other words a man would give up everything for his wife. She was going to die and leave him alone so he willfully chose to eat the fruit and die with her rather than live in the garden with just the animals and God to talk to.
Isaiah quotes God as saying in Isa. 55:8 quote: God will give us what we can handle at the moment. When we grow He will add more understand to our knowledge.
I am going to let John expound on that point. quote: As you can see it comes with the territory. You said you could not understand why I was still here. Well they need to hear it whether it affects their lives or not.
I frustrate them because they do not have answers to the questions I ask. Look at AZPaul's posts recently to me and point out any real evidence he has presented to support his view. He has made a lot of assertions but presented no physical evidence or supporting evidence.
The KJV Bible I use is not perfect. Mankind has been copying copy's of it for years. All you have to do is look at the new translation and see that man has tried to change the text to suit their particular belief's throughout the years. That is why I studied the original languages of the Bible and have continued to study them for the past 50+ years. I can read the dead sea scrolls which I have copies of and compare to the other texts I have available to me. I have a scholars edition of Logos Bible software where I have access to millions of books to study. And thousands of scholars to study behind. But the most important tool I have is the Holy Spirit as I depend on Him to lead me in all truth. So much study and prayer are involved in a study of God's Word.
Christianity and being born again are two different things. The word Christian is in the Bible 2 times and Christians 1 time. quote: quote: quote: These people were called little cristos because they were living a life like Christ and it was meant to be a derogatory term.
First you must be born again and receive the Holy Spirit to lead you in all truth. Without having the Spirit there is no way to receive or understand the Word of God. But when you are born again you are literally bought and paid for by the debt paid for you on the cross of Calvary. Since you are bought and paid for you should do what you are told to do. Not in order to be born again but because you are a born again bought and paid for child of the King. jar and many other want to feel important in the decision and thus try to place the works of mankind above the sacrifice God made for them making His sacrifice of non effect. If we could have pleased God by our works He would not have had to come down here and die on the cross. So their works and belief in them make fun of God's sacrifice. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Phat Member Posts: 16087 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: |
That was a great explanation of a lot of things! The only thing that the critics have left is that the Bible was written, edited,and redacted by humans and is thus not the living word. The way that you explain it, however, makes it believable.
I never understood why God created evil but now it appears to make sense. We really do have a decision to make. We have several who claim to be Christians here at EvC and we have a Deist(Ringo) who claims to follow the message while being unconvinced of the need to be a Christian. He has challenged me in many of my comfort zones, however. I am scared to lose my material comforts in life. I am scared to have to suffer. I DO love Jesus, however, and am unafraid to follow Him. I'm just not sure what road of suffering He wants me to travel. Nor do I trust many of the religious in this world. Plus, I feel now more than ever for my EvC online friends such as Stile. He seems like such a nice person. Why on earth would God burn him up simply for not believing? The critics would agree, and say that organized religion is brainwashing people. You must admit that in many cases it does...all for lining the pockets of some televangelist or 501C3 organization. And I think that many conservative American Christians equate rightwing political ideology with Gods plan. And that the Left are tools of Satan. Faith seems to believe this. And unbelievers such as Stile seem like such good advertisements for God and free will also. But tell me...can we ever have both, or is accepting God making a definite choice? And politically speaking, in your opinion is the Right any better than the Left or is everybody simply human and fallen...in need of a savior? Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
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