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Author Topic:   A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 166 of 378 (845879)
12-21-2018 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by ringo
12-21-2018 11:22 AM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
It's more like disagreeing with God about what's good and what's evil. The God of the Bible can't make up His own mind about what's good and what's evil.
So if I asked you the same question I asked Stile above, what would you do? Likely challenge the authority of the one who made the lake of fire in the first place!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by ringo, posted 12-21-2018 11:22 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by ringo, posted 12-22-2018 11:25 AM Phat has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 167 of 378 (845881)
12-21-2018 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Phat
12-21-2018 2:48 PM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Phat writes:
What if it were true? Would you do anything different than you do now?
Absolutely I would do some things differently.
And others... well, I would like to say "not so much..." but it is hard to guess at how such knowledge would make me act. Perhaps a great deal of things would change.
For one, I would have to very quickly adjust my thread: I Know That God Does Not Exist
With the new information that thread would be entirely incorrect and in need of an update.
Would you accept that you were a sinner and ask God into your heart? Or would you simply say "that's cool too!"
This would depend on exactly which sort of God is shown to exist.
Is it the God who committed genocide in the story of Noah? - I would have a great deal of reservations before accepting such a being into my heart. But, I still wouldn't be closed off - I'd just have a lot of questions that would require clarification. Some paths would lead me to accepting this God, others would lead me to rejecting Him.
Is it a God who puts love above all else? - I would be greatly excited to have such a God in my heart, if He would have me.
If you found absolute proof that the way you were living now would send you to a lake of fire sometime in the future, would you do what you needed to do to change course or would you challenge the authority of the law that sent you there?
This is a loaded question.
I will answer with (hopefully) clear examples:
One of the "ways I live now" is that I do what I can to take care of my wife. She's a wonderful girl who has a mental disability (PTSD from being badly abused when she was younger) and a variety of physical ailments (nothing life-threatening, but certainly a few that are... more than most have to deal with.)
If one of the things I "need to do to change course" is that I must leave my wife - then no, I would stay with my wife and accept my fate in the lake of fire. Laughing the entire time at the fool in charge that setup such a wicked system.
Example #2:
The sorts of things I "need to change course on" in order to avoid the lake of fire include themes such as:
-going to church often (at least once a week - preferably more)
-giving more to the poor and helping others more than I'm doing now (my current excuse is that I do give to the poor, but what I don't give I use to help myself and my wife live a comfortable life. Not an exaggerated life, but a comfortable one.) However, I would be willing to hurt my wife "just a bit more" in order to give "just a bit more to the poor" if my eternity was threatened with a lake of fire. Without such a threat, I see no reason to hurt my wife.
I would do such things in order to avoid a lake of fire.
But, really, they would be done "in order to avoid a lake of fire." Not out of any increase of personal charity or feelings of love for others. I'm not sure if that's really a good thing or not.
There are certain things I'm willing to do in order to avoid certain punishments, for sure.
However, they would not make me want to admit such a God into my heart very much.
Such things do not seem to come from a source of love. But more of a source of vanity.
One can be a part of the community and help those around them without having to "go to church."
One can give what they are able to charity without hurting those they have responsibilities towards.
Forcing people by threat in order to ensure they meet some strange level of acceptability seems - immature, rather than reasonable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Phat, posted 12-21-2018 2:48 PM Phat has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 168 of 378 (845895)
12-21-2018 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by ringo
12-21-2018 11:22 AM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
ringo writes:
Yes, so the overall picture is of a flighty God.
C'mon ringo. Like I said it is a progressive revelation where the understanding slowly became more and more focused until it became perfectly focused in Jesus. God remained constant but their understanding of God fluctuated between times and individuals.
ringo writes:
Which is why I say that Matthew 12 reflects the Old Testament. A loving God would forgive. A loving parent forgives whether the child wants forgiveness or not.
Why? If a child says to his/her parent that they want nothing more to do with them, do you think that they shouldn't be allowed that choice. It is the same with God.
If you ever get a chance read C S Lewis' book "the Great Divorce" Sure, it's a metaphor but I found it helpful.
Also, the Bible tells us that in the end it is all about the recreation of all things. As a Christian I don't really worry about who is in or out. I just leave that to God and maybe just ultimately hell will be empty. Also there is a possibility that our lives now impact our lives in the hereafter and so I'm inclined to think that it is more than just a matter of being in or out, and that just as we have roles in this life we'll have roles in the next. In the end I believe that God's justice is perfect and I'm more than happy to leave it all up to Him All I can do is with His guidance and help, be the person that He wants me to be in this life.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by ringo, posted 12-21-2018 11:22 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by ringo, posted 12-22-2018 11:19 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 169 of 378 (845898)
12-21-2018 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Faith
12-21-2018 11:25 AM


Re: Religious persecutions of heretics -- get it straight Tangle
Faith writes:
I would of course suoppose that if someone "has Christ in his heart" he has to be a Christian, but apparently you are making a distinction. Perhaps not much of a distinction though. Sounds like you might put vimesey above a lot of Christians anyway, even as more favored by God?
Let's look at the story of the "Good Samaritan".
Luke 10 slightly modified writes:
25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. Teacher, he asked, what must I do to inherit eternal life? 26 What is written in the Law? he replied. How do you read it? 27 He answered, ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ ; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 28 You have answered correctly, Jesus replied. Do this and you will live. 29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, And who is my neighbor? 30 In reply Jesus said: A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A PASTOR happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a CHURCH ELDER, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But VIMSEY, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’ 36 Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers? 37 The expert in the law replied, The one who had mercy on him. Jesus told him, Go and do likewise.
Jesus is clear that the Spirit speaks to all of us, and it is not just Christians that respond to the Spirit and there are many Christians who don't.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Faith, posted 12-21-2018 11:25 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 170 of 378 (845910)
12-22-2018 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by GDR
12-21-2018 6:42 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
GDR writes:
Like I said it is a progressive revelation where the understanding slowly became more and more focused until it became perfectly focused in Jesus.
But there's no reason to think that. God may have remained constant but His image was sanitized by believers who recognized that humans are more moral than their God. As long as hell exists there is no possibility of a loving God.
GDR writes:
If a child says to his/her parent that they want nothing more to do with them, do you think that they shouldn't be allowed that choice.
I don't think any parent would give them that choice. Note the story of the prodigal son. The children might go out the door but it's always open for them to come back.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by GDR, posted 12-21-2018 6:42 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by GDR, posted 12-22-2018 3:22 PM ringo has replied
 Message 174 by Phat, posted 12-22-2018 4:13 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 171 of 378 (845911)
12-22-2018 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Phat
12-21-2018 2:52 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Phat writes:
If you found absolute proof that the way you were living now would send you to a lake of fire sometime in the future, would you do what you needed to do to change course or would you challenge the authority of the law that sent you there?
Phat writes:
So if I asked you the same question I asked Stile above, what would you do?
Let me turn that question back on you: If you found absolute proof that protecting Jews would send you to a concentration camp, would you do what you needed to do to change course or would you challenge the authority of the law that sent you there?
Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Phat, posted 12-21-2018 2:52 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Phat, posted 12-22-2018 4:03 PM ringo has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 172 of 378 (845915)
12-22-2018 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by ringo
12-22-2018 11:19 AM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
ringo writes:
But there's no reason to think that. God may have remained constant but His image was sanitized by believers who recognized that humans are more moral than their God. As long as hell exists there is no possibility of a loving God.
It isn't a case of sanitizing it. The Jews of the OT were subject to many influences. They worshiped Yahweh, celebrated the Exodus but at the same time they were almost endlessly suffering at the hands of their more powerful neighbours. Their vision of God was one who would with their help or not overpower their enemies.
Slowly however, their understanding of God evolved into a more loving God but there were still a wide variety of views of what it would look like when Yahweh returned. As near as we can tell nobody however expected Yahweh's time of visitation to look like Jesus.
I have a rather nuanced idea of hell. I found it interesting that in Lewis' book "The Last Battle' there was a group called the dwarfs. Their mantra was "the dwarfs are for the dwarfs". In the newly recreated world after Narnia they are part of it but they perceive the world very differently. They have a beautiful spread of food in front of them but they perceive as the same old gruel that they ate in Narnia.
Personally I don't think much about hell. I do trust in a God that is loving, forgiving and just, and that ultimately there will be perfect justice. I'll leave it to it to Him as to what that looks like.
ringo writes:
I don't think any parent would give them that choice. Note the story of the prodigal son. The children might go out the door but it's always open for them to come back.
Sure, I'm fine with that and you even used the Bible to make your point. However a parent has to give them freedom to make their choice in the first place, which doesn't negate a change of heart. That is actually pretty consistent again with Lewis' "The Great Divorce".

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by ringo, posted 12-22-2018 11:19 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by ringo, posted 12-23-2018 1:22 PM GDR has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 173 of 378 (845918)
12-22-2018 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by ringo
12-22-2018 11:25 AM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Essentially you are asking me if I would do what I intrinsically knew to be right at the risk of my own life. It would be what God wanted me to do. It would be difficult to do, but I would try my best.
One difference between you an the counter-arguments is that you believe that humans somehow know better than the God of the book. This sort of argument is a lie of the enemy. Of course we will do what we know to be right, and God will support it. You can wait for evidence while you do your best, but I have enough evidence to fuel these debates with you. (and to sacrifice for others) despite your claims that I am somehow trying to weasel out of it. All I am doing is challenging your daft idea that humans know better than any God character thus far.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by ringo, posted 12-22-2018 11:25 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by ringo, posted 12-23-2018 1:30 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 174 of 378 (845919)
12-22-2018 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by ringo
12-22-2018 11:19 AM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
ringo writes:
As long as hell exists there is no possibility of a loving God.
And if hell didnt exist, there would always be the possibility that ringo would grow up, leave home, and do what he thought was right even if he never acknowledged that he had a father who taught him. And if ringo fell short of the mark, it would be ok as long as he did his best. Its the kids who were living at home and were evil and got booted out of the house that makes a need for a place for them to stay. Imagine a kid who was beyond rehabilitation. Every home they tried to live in would boot them out to protect its members. They may wind up on the street, stealing and grabbing handouts to survive. Granted its not my job to judge them...im just being hypothetical. God created a place they could all stay if they refused to repent and acknowledge Dads authority (and love).
One may argue, in this hypothetical, that after all, Dad created them for the purpose. (I CANTS fallen angel argument) and that Hell was a foreknown place for the incorrigible. You argue that even the evil bastards deserve what the rest of us have. OK, they can stay at YOUR house! We wont rename your place as "hell" but it will be a house not many want to visit...unless your guests behave a bit better.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by ringo, posted 12-22-2018 11:19 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by ringo, posted 12-23-2018 1:35 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 175 of 378 (845937)
12-23-2018 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by GDR
12-22-2018 3:22 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
GDR writes:
The Jews of the OT were subject to many influences. They worshiped Yahweh, celebrated the Exodus but at the same time they were almost endlessly suffering at the hands of their more powerful neighbours. Their vision of God was one who would with their help or not overpower their enemies.
Slowly however, their understanding of God evolved into a more loving God...
So that is them sanitizing their view of God and you arbitrarily choosing the sanitised version.
GDR writes:
However a parent has to give them freedom to make their choice in the first place, which doesn't negate a change of heart.
If you're saying that God had a change of heart since the genocidal Old Testament, that's one thing, but it doesn't give you an excuse to claim that the "true nature" of God is a loving one.
As long as everlasting punishment exists - and it doesn't matter whether you think about it or not - as long as it exists, the idea of a loving God won't fly.
GDR writes:
... you even used the Bible to make your point.
I'm using the Bible to make every point to you. You're the one who is avoiding the Bible and using C.S. Lewis as an apologist.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by GDR, posted 12-22-2018 3:22 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Phat, posted 12-23-2018 1:32 PM ringo has replied
 Message 189 by GDR, posted 12-23-2018 6:22 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 176 of 378 (845938)
12-23-2018 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Phat
12-22-2018 4:03 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Phat writes:
... you believe that humans somehow know better than the God of the book. This sort of argument is a lie of the enemy.
That's your apologists lying to you. There is no "enemy". What kind of puny god could have enemies?
Phat writes:
I have enough evidence to fuel these debates with you.
No you don't. You never use evidence in these debates. You constantly ridicule evidence.
Phat writes:
All I am doing is challenging your daft idea that humans know better than any God character thus far.
We know better than to kill millions with a flood. We know better than to kill every firstborn child in Egypt. Your "challenge" is pretty lame.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Phat, posted 12-22-2018 4:03 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Phat, posted 12-23-2018 1:44 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 177 of 378 (845939)
12-23-2018 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by ringo
12-23-2018 1:22 PM


Threatening Us If We Ignore The Pardon
ringo writes:
As long as everlasting punishment exists - and it doesn't matter whether you think about it or not - as long as it exists, the idea of a loving God won't fly.
Well this is a major sticking point, isn't it. Pastor ICANT showed me a new understanding than the one I had, which is that Satan was created precisely for the purpose that he had. Namely, to give us a choice. If this is true, everlasting punishment is only meant for him, not for the rest of us. Of course, you will argue that "threatening" people into Heaven is rather disappointing for an omnipotent Creator...but throughout History, people have had more to fear from each other than they have ever had to fear from a wrathful God.
If, in fact, the concept of a free pardon exists, however, you really have no claim against the idea of eternal punishment...unless you want to lobby for Satan. And if satan was created for the purpose, take it up with God rather than slandering Him.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by ringo, posted 12-23-2018 1:22 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by ringo, posted 12-23-2018 1:42 PM Phat has replied
 Message 184 by Tangle, posted 12-23-2018 2:12 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 178 of 378 (845940)
12-23-2018 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Phat
12-22-2018 4:13 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Phat writes:
And if hell didnt exist, there would always be the possibility that ringo would grow up, leave home, and do what he thought was right even if he never acknowledged that he had a father who taught him.
ringo does that whether Hell exists or not.
Phat writes:
Its the kids who were living at home and were evil and got booted out of the house that makes a need for a place for them to stay.
But that didn't happen. And if it did happen, a lake of fire would not be a necessary place to stay.
Phat writes:
Imagine a kid who was beyond rehabilitation.
That's more of a reflection of the rehabilitator than of the child. You portray a God who's utterly helpless.
Phat writes:
God created a place they could all stay if they refused to repent and acknowledge Dads authority (and love).
A lake of fire. That notion is just disgusting. What a vile, ugly Father you portray.
Edited by ringo, : Malfunctioning sHift key and/or finger.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Phat, posted 12-22-2018 4:13 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 179 of 378 (845941)
12-23-2018 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Phat
12-23-2018 1:32 PM


Re: Threatening Us If We Ignore The Pardon
Phat writes:
Satan was created precisely for the purpose that he had. Namely, to give us a choice.
We've discussed before what a stupid idea that is.
Phat writes:
If this is true, everlasting punishment is only meant for him, not for the rest of us.
But that isn't what the Bible says. You should never get your ideas from an illiterate like ICANT.
Phat writes:
... throughout History, people have had more to fear from each other than they have ever had to fear from a wrathful God.
That's nonsense, of course. Ever hear of the Flood? Sodom and Gomorrah? The plagues of Egypt?
Phat writes:
If, in fact, the concept of a free pardon exists, however, you really have no claim against the idea of eternal punishment...
And if pigs could fly....
But they can't. And you can't pick Jesus out of the Bible and throw the rest of it away.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Phat, posted 12-23-2018 1:32 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Phat, posted 12-23-2018 1:47 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 180 of 378 (845942)
12-23-2018 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by ringo
12-23-2018 1:30 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
You never use evidence in these debates. You constantly ridicule evidence.
And you constantly ridicule apologists. Furthermore, you lobby against the character of God. Nobody knows if all of the firstborn in Egypt were ever killed nor who did the killing.
There is no "enemy".
Lots of people are getting killed for there to be no enemy.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by ringo, posted 12-23-2018 1:30 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by ringo, posted 12-23-2018 1:53 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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