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Author Topic:   A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 181 of 378 (845943)
12-23-2018 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by ringo
12-23-2018 1:42 PM


Re: Threatening Us If We Ignore The Pardon
Ever hear of the Flood? Sodom and Gomorrah? The plagues of Egypt?
Ever hear of God? Satan? Eternal life? You cant simply cherry pick eternal punishment out of the lineup and throw those away.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by ringo, posted 12-23-2018 1:42 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by ringo, posted 12-23-2018 1:55 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 182 of 378 (845944)
12-23-2018 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Phat
12-23-2018 1:44 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Phat writes:
And you constantly ridicule apologists.
Indeed I do. Thanks for noticing. It's good to ridicule apologists and it's bad to ridicule evidence.
Phat writes:
Furthermore, you lobby against the character of God.
No I do not. I use the only record of God that you use, the same one that is the only record of your Jesus.
Phat writes:
Nobody knows if all of the firstborn in Egypt were ever killed nor who did the killing.
We have the same source as the one that says some guy named Jesus was crucified. You might as well use page 6 of the phone book and throw the rest away.
Phat writes:
Lots of people are getting killed for there to be no enemy.
Think that through.
It's like Faith's argument for the Flood: evidence of floods proves that there was One Big Flood. You're saying that evidence of enemies proves that there's One Big Enemy.
No.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Phat, posted 12-23-2018 1:44 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 183 of 378 (845945)
12-23-2018 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Phat
12-23-2018 1:47 PM


Re: Threatening Us If We Ignore The Pardon
Phat writes:
Ever hear of God? Satan? Eternal life? You cant simply cherry pick eternal punishment out of the lineup and throw those away.
I'm not cherry-picking anything. Eternal punishment is tightly interwoven with God, Satan and Eternal life. Dynamite couldn't separate them.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Phat, posted 12-23-2018 1:47 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Phat, posted 12-23-2018 3:02 PM ringo has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 184 of 378 (845947)
12-23-2018 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Phat
12-23-2018 1:32 PM


Re: Threatening Us If We Ignore The Pardon
ICANT writes:
Pastor ICANT showed me a new understanding than the one I had, which is that Satan was created precisely for the purpose that he had. Namely, to give us a choice.
Pastor ICANT could show you your arse and call it Christmas pudding and you'd believe him.
This stuff is childish Phat, it's a perpetual surprise to me that you can take it in anyway seriously. It's such obvious drivel. God created Satan to give us choice? How old are you?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Phat, posted 12-23-2018 1:32 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Phat, posted 12-23-2018 2:59 PM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 185 of 378 (845952)
12-23-2018 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Tangle
12-23-2018 2:12 PM


Re: Threatening Us If We Ignore The Pardon
Tangle writes:
This stuff is childish Phat, it's a perpetual surprise to me that you can take it in any way seriously. It's such obvious drivel. God created Satan to give us choice?
Well you think that the concept of God is childish anyway. I doubt I will ever persuade you otherwise. If you are honest in your decision to hardly give the story another thought, I doubt if you would get judged harshly...provided you are a decent human in other respects. The bottom line is that we all have not learned everything that we are destined to learn....that is, if you believe in the idea that your life has a destiny apart from death and fostering children to carry on the tangle name. These arguments are so drawn out and unproductive!If I am ever in the UK, I will let you know and will buy you a coffee if you ever decided to let a loon like me near you.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Tangle, posted 12-23-2018 2:12 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Tangle, posted 12-23-2018 3:44 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 186 of 378 (845954)
12-23-2018 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by ringo
12-23-2018 1:55 PM


Re: Threatening Us If We Ignore The Pardon
ringo writes:
Eternal punishment is tightly interwoven with God, Satan and Eternal life. Dynamite couldn't separate them.
I know the drill. Its all a primitive superstition that happened to have a good message about doing selflessly for others. That much you have taught me. I am grateful for your perspective. You do get me worked up time and again, however. Why must you always disagree?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by ringo, posted 12-23-2018 1:55 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by ringo, posted 12-23-2018 3:27 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 187 of 378 (845956)
12-23-2018 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Phat
12-23-2018 3:02 PM


Re: Threatening Us If We Ignore The Pardon
Phat writes:
Why must you always disagree?
I only disagree when you're wrong. It just seems like a lot because you keep repeating the same wrong things over and over again.
Say something right and I'll give you a cheer. I've even cheered Faith a couple of times, every time she's been right.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Phat, posted 12-23-2018 3:02 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 188 of 378 (845957)
12-23-2018 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Phat
12-23-2018 2:59 PM


Re: Threatening Us If We Ignore The Pardon
Phat writes:
Well you think that the concept of God is childish anyway.
Which god? Your god yes, it's an obvious fabrication. A desitic kind of god isn't quite as dumb.
I doubt I will ever persuade you otherwise.
You can cease to doubt.
If you are honest in your decision to hardly give the story another thought, I doubt if you would get judged harshly...provided you are a decent human in other respects.
Obviously this isn't something that bothers me in the slightest, but according to your hero ICANT it doesnt matter how decent a life I lead, I'm going to hell. Don't you have a problem with that?
The bottom line is that we all have not learned everything that we are destined to learn....
Uh? How would anybody know how much we're destined to learn? Does that sentence actually have a real world meaning?
If I am ever in the UK, I will let you know and will buy you a coffee if you ever decided to let a loon like me near you.
Sure, I'll take you fishing, it'll take your mind off this crap. But do you have a passport?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Phat, posted 12-23-2018 2:59 PM Phat has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 189 of 378 (845958)
12-23-2018 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by ringo
12-23-2018 1:22 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
ringo writes:
So that is them sanitizing their view of God and you arbitrarily choosing the sanitised version.
Yes and no. In the older parts of the OT by and large they were looking to Yahweh to be the most powerful god, one that was stronger than their neighbour's gods. Slowly though they became monotheistic but they still were looking for Yahweh to be with them in order to overcome their enemies and be number one in the neighbourhood for a change.
The later prophets though, and often in the psalms Yahweh slowly developed a more compassionate understanding of God;s nature. Finally the Israel story climaxes in Jesus where we see God's full nature embodied. I call it a progressive revelation but in a way it is a sanitation of their beliefs.
So yes, I believe the sanitized version, the one embodied by Jesus Christ and I reject the god that we can see when we accept an inerrant scripture. As I've said to Faith numerous times it is Christianity not Bibleinity, and as you can see I perceive the nature of God quite differently than do Faith or ICANT. They are prepared with their Bibleianity to accept a genocidal deity whereas with Christianity it is unthinkable.
ringo writes:
If you're saying that God had a change of heart since the genocidal Old Testament, that's one thing, but it doesn't give you an excuse to claim that the "true nature" of God is a loving one.
As long as everlasting punishment exists - and it doesn't matter whether you think about it or not - as long as it exists, the idea of a loving God won't fly.
I am not saying that God had a change of heart. I am saying that He didn't and would never have sanctioned genocide or public stoning for that matter.
As far as hell is concerned, I as a Christian believe in ultimate perfect justice. You tell me, should Stalin and Mother Theresa ,or Hitler and Mahatma Ghandi receive the same ultimate result?
I'm also fine with the idea that in the end hell is empty. I can only control my present life and personally I leave the next life up to God. I guess i'll know where when I get there.
ringo writes:
I'm using the Bible to make every point to you. You're the one who is avoiding the Bible and using C.S. Lewis as an apologist.
I'm not avoiding anything in the Bible. Yes I do reject a number of things as I don't believe that the Bible is inerrant, and I go further in that I contend the inerrantist view is a non-Christian view. I understand the Bible through the lens of what Jesus taught and how He lived.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by ringo, posted 12-23-2018 1:22 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by AZPaul3, posted 12-24-2018 2:47 AM GDR has replied
 Message 191 by ringo, posted 12-24-2018 10:55 AM GDR has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 190 of 378 (845965)
12-24-2018 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by GDR
12-23-2018 6:22 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
What'd you do, take a class in erudite?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by GDR, posted 12-23-2018 6:22 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by GDR, posted 12-24-2018 2:26 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 191 of 378 (845969)
12-24-2018 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by GDR
12-23-2018 6:22 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
GDR writes:
... I reject the god that we can see when we accept an inerrant scripture.
But it isn't about inerrancy. It's about what the scriptures actually say. We can reject the idea of an actual worldwide Flood but we can't reject the description of a God who clearly would use one to wipe out mankind.
GDR writes:
... I perceive the nature of God quite differently than do Faith or ICANT. They are prepared with their Bibleianity to accept a genocidal deity whereas with Christianity it is unthinkable.
Theirs is an honest reading of the Bible; yours is not. They may come up with ludicrous, impossible interpretations based on a requirement for inerrancy but your interpretation is just made up.
GDR writes:
As far as hell is concerned, I as a Christian believe in ultimate perfect justice. You tell me, should Stalin and Mother Theresa ,or Hitler and Mahatma Ghandi receive the same ultimate result?
Realistically, they all did receive the same result. They're all dead. Realistically, there's no such thing as "ultimate justice".
GDR writes:
I'm not avoiding anything in the Bible. Yes I do reject a number of things...
You contradict yourself. How is avoiding different from rejecting?
GDR writes:
... as I don't believe that the Bible is inerrant....
I think one of the biggest errors in the Bible (or at least drawn from the Bible) is the idea that Jesus died for our sins. What a ridiculous concept.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by GDR, posted 12-23-2018 6:22 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Phat, posted 12-24-2018 2:41 PM ringo has replied
 Message 194 by Phat, posted 12-24-2018 2:44 PM ringo has replied
 Message 195 by Phat, posted 12-24-2018 2:50 PM ringo has replied
 Message 197 by GDR, posted 12-24-2018 5:10 PM ringo has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 192 of 378 (845975)
12-24-2018 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by AZPaul3
12-24-2018 2:47 AM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
AZPaul3 writes:
What'd you do, take a class in erudite?
Thank you I think.
Merry Christmas

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by AZPaul3, posted 12-24-2018 2:47 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by AZPaul3, posted 12-24-2018 6:00 PM GDR has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 193 of 378 (845977)
12-24-2018 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by ringo
12-24-2018 10:55 AM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
ringo writes:
How is avoiding different from rejecting?
In ways I suppose it is not, I avoid thinking as you do about the characters being fictional...because I reject being whatever it is that you are...on a spectrum from atheist to Deist. I avoid thinking of God this way thus I reject the character which you may or may not embrace...I can't tell because you throw away all envelopes...so I can't make out the return address.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by ringo, posted 12-24-2018 10:55 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by ringo, posted 12-27-2018 10:49 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 194 of 378 (845978)
12-24-2018 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by ringo
12-24-2018 10:55 AM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
ringo writes:
We can reject the idea of an actual worldwide Flood but we can't reject the description of a God who clearly would use one to wipe out mankind.
Yes we can reject such a description. Belief is not limited to what the book tells us. If you keep God locked up in the book, you limit yourself to a belief in Long John Silver rather than an eternal omniscient pirate archetype.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by ringo, posted 12-24-2018 10:55 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by ringo, posted 12-27-2018 10:54 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 195 of 378 (845979)
12-24-2018 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by ringo
12-24-2018 10:55 AM


Jesus Died For What? Ringo Explains
I think one of the biggest errors in the Bible (or at least drawn from the Bible) is the idea that Jesus died for our sins. What a ridiculous concept.
This should be a good can of worms!
Tell us, Mr."What The Book Says" why such a concept is ridiculous. Of course, in order to do so, you must make up a logical answer, since you won't find one in the book.
I know jars argument concerning this...but I want to hear ringos version. It boils down to whether we prefer a human Jesus or a Godlike favoring one.
It also revolves around the Gospel of John as part of the book or an added confusion.
Pastor ICANT explains it well:
quote:
We are all sinners in need of a savior.
When we accept that savior we are still sinners
But we are not under the penalty of sin.
Ringo is obviously in jars camp on this one. I await his response.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by ringo, posted 12-24-2018 10:55 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by NosyNed, posted 12-24-2018 4:00 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 205 by ringo, posted 12-27-2018 11:03 AM Phat has replied

  
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