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Author | Topic: A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It really doesn't though, does it? "I believe," is not an argument.
While honest questions are encouraged at Bible Study, assuming that God is a fictional character in the book will get you an argument. Phat writes:
A pastor worth his salt would be able to put up a real argument. Remember that "pastor" means "shepherd" - a shepherd protects his flock with reality, not with belief.
And no Pastor worth his salt would allow a rebel to scramble everyone's faith at Bible Study. Phat writes:
Good. You would have them leaving with more confusion in their beliefs.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: I have told you my theory. It gets personal, however...so I hesitate bringing it up here in public. I question your motives for being a rebel. I feel as if you at some point in your life have had issues with authority. It has made you the way you are. A pastor worth his salt would be able to put up a real argument. You are really something else! I really like our discussions. Iron sharpens iron, they say. Most Pastors would tell me to avoid you. They would say that people such as Richard Carrier and ringo can destroy someone's faith. I was watching Carrier this morning. Why Invent the Jesus? Richard Carrier Ph.D. I had previously watched the videos that I shared with ICANT in our debate. So Carrier and the apologists strongly disagree. Were I to judge Dr.Carrier at all, it would be the observation that he comes across as smug and self-assured in his theory. And I note that he gets paid to do what he does, so I won't attack the apologists on that reason. Why do you dismiss the apologists? Why is their argument less persuasive to you than Dr.Carrier? Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
It isn't "common sense". After all, religion is more common than the use of evidence and logic.
I think you overinflate your own common sense... Phat writes:
I don't reject anybody, no matter how stupid they are. I seldom call idiots idiots. ... and reject too many people whom you disagree with...calling them stupid and misguided. It is frustrating to see you fawning over an idiot like ICANT. It's like Trump kissing up to Putin. You should know who your real enemies are.
Phat writes:
I argued with him a lot. He used to tell me I argued like a lawyer - I don't have enough experience with lawyers to know whether he was right.
How was your relationship with your earthly father? Did you argue with him? Phat writes:
He was around until I was 45.
Was he around when you were younger? Phat writes:
I would think that "studying" should include challenging what you have been spoon-fed. You are an interesting scientific study...a true thorn in the flesh of those of us who have spent years studying things that you challenge. And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
The message tells us that we will be saved by doing what the messenger told us to do, not by anything the messenger does.
ringo writes:
That's what the message tells us. We may all be "sinners" but there is no reason to think we "need" a "saviour". Phat writes:
I'm rejecting the apologists' made-up message. Why are you picking and choosing which parts of the message you accept?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It's everybody's responsibility to tell the authorities when they're wrong.
I question your motives for being a rebel. I feel as if you at some point in your life have had issues with authority. Phat writes:
And what's wrong with that?
They would say that people such as Richard Carrier and ringo can destroy someone's faith. Phat writes:
I always give my reasons for what I dismiss.
Why do you dismiss the apologists? Phat writes:
I have no idea who Dr. Carrier is or what his arguments are. Why is their argument less persuasive to you than Dr.Carrier?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: So are all of them knowing liars? (in your opinion) I'm rejecting the apologists' made-up message.Or do you see them as ignorant? In order to dismiss what they say, I would have to either believe that they were either liars or hucksters. I see no reason for either...at least no more than I see in Dr.Carrier. So it boils down to the information. Again the question...why are the arguments of the apologists dismissed and why are the arguments of the myth busters acceptable?
ringo writes: Matthew 25 says so, but not the Gospel of John. What makes you think that God is a fictional character in a book? In our hypothetical Bible Study, why would you even attend? What would be your motive? The message tells us that we will be saved by doing what the messenger told us to do, not by anything the messenger does.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Some of them may be liars. Some of them are too lazy to figure things out for themselves. Some of them like to pat themselves on the back for having all the answers. Etc.
So are all of them knowing liars? (in your opinion) Phat writes:
Worse. Many of them are True believers. There's ignorance, then there's wilful ignorance, then there's militant ignorance and then there's belief.
Or do you see them as ignorant? Phat writes:
Can't you dismiss what they say on the basis that they're wrong? What difference does their motivation make? Why do you have to make it personal?
In order to dismiss what they say, I would have to either believe that they were either liars or hucksters. Phat writes:
Exactly. Ignore the messenger and look at the message.
So it boils down to the information. Phat writes:
You have to look at each issue individually. Even with somebody like ICANT, you have to see that he's been wrong about every issue before you can conclude that his ideas are not worth listening to.
Again the question...why are the arguments of the apologists dismissed and why are the arguments of the myth busters acceptable? Phat writes:
What does it mean to "believe" in somebody?
Matthew 25 says so, but not the Gospel of John. Phat writes:
He's in a book. What differentiates him from Long John Silver?
What makes you think that God is a fictional character in a book? Phat writes:
I wouldn't. In our hypothetical Bible Study, why would you even attend?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Adults don't know everything. Who are you to tell me that my belief is imaginary? Who's pastor ICANT to tell you that your belief is real? I'm the devil on your other shoulder. And btw, your belief is real; what you believe in isn't.
I'll continue to pray for you and ringo. I'd rather you did something useful.
Both of you need a good whipping for disrespecting Pastor ICANT. Your grovelling to that hopeless fake is demeaning. You know I said you couldn't offend me? Well your kowtowing to that charlatan comes very close.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Disrespect is earned. Both of you need a good whipping for disrespecting Pastor ICANT.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Here we go again! Good morning, by the way. Is it cold up North?
ringo writes: Because in real life, the builder cannot be present at each project at the same time and in diverse places. The real question is whether the builder is willing to include human development in each project which he completes. The next question, as we have gone over before, is whether the builder feels a need to hang out with the human occupants and be an advisor or whether He simply leaves instructions and messages for the occupants to complete themselves.
I'm wondering why people conflate the builder with the landlord. In real life, the builder builds and then moves on to the next project. ringo writes: I believe that te relationship is more of a communion than a master/servant relationship. To me, it seems more plausible to believe in One Builder than it does a pantheon of various builders and various landlords or Bosses for differing projects within the human experience.
So why would you think that the Creator and the God that you pray to are the same entity?Why are you assuming an all-wise and logical Deity in the first place? Are you serious? What makes little sense is jars idea of a bumbling fumbling Deity learning on the job whom humans have to correct...unless such a story supports the idea of humans creating and imagining various Deities, Imps, Fairies, and Spaghetti Monsters within the human imaginative experience. I do not believe that way.
worshiping God is a nonsensical concept to begin with. How petty is He that He needs or wants to be worshiped? We pay honor and respect to human kings and dignitaries. Its not about them being petty or needy. Its about honoring them and giving them a place of honor at the head of the table rather than hanging out with the workers in the kitchen. Note, furthermore, that Jesus willingly did the latter.
How can there be a rational belief in something that has no evidence to support it? Again, evidence removes the need for belief or free willed choice. We really don't have free will in regards to gravity, unless we build a plane. Even then our freedom is temporary. ringo writes: Since when are we insisting that God conform to our standards? There has to be compromise at the very least between His standards and ours.
His "mysterious ways" are not rational by our standards.ringo writes: Nobody will ever know everything. And yet I have noticed that you have low regard...contempt even...for belief. Note your quote:
Believers tell EVERYBODY that God works in mysterious ways. That's their excuse for anything they can't explain (...)it has nothing to do with who knows more. I'm talking about what believers think they know and the excuses they make for not knowing.ringo writes:
There's ignorance, then there's willful ignorance, then there's militant ignorance and then there's belief.Phat, to ICANT writes:
of my critic's Tangle and ringo is that they limit God to a character in a book.ICANT writes: And you will claim that you are awaiting evidence and that the God of the Bible cannot be trusted. Silly rabbit! Its because you limit Him to the book and have such contempt for belief in the first place. Actually they limit Him to the abilities of mankind. (...)They believe He is not God as He is a product of the thoughts of mankind, therefore He does not exist other than in the minds of some deluded people like Phat and ICANT.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes:
Disrespect is earned.Matthew 10:40 writes: Did you ever consider that messages get disrespected because whoever sent the messenger was never respected in the first place? Note tangles reaction to my even talking with ICANT rather than insulting and belittling him as others do:
He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.quote:Which seems a bit out of proportion to the offense. First off, I grovel to nobody except God. Pastor ICANT is no more respected by me than you or Tangle. Yet something about him sure seems to set you off. Even if he was ignorant in regards to science is hardly a reason to insult him. ringo writes: But it strengthens the case why human nature selectively villifies and attacks certain arguments or people and ignores others. You're getting pretty desperate. That "demon" rubbish just weakens your case for God.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That goes back to the original question. The landlord has a say in what the tenant does on his property; the builder doesn't. So why conflate the builder with the landlord?
The real question is whether the builder is willing to include human development in each project which he completes. Phat writes:
You know the answer to that. The builder has nothing to do with the tenant. He turns the building over to the landlord and goes on his way.
The next question, as we have gone over before, is whether the builder feels a need to hang out with the human occupants and be an advisor or whether He simply leaves instructions and messages for the occupants to complete themselves. Phat writes:
Why is it more plausible? Because you've been told to believe that?
To me, it seems more plausible to believe in One Builder than it does a pantheon of various builders and various landlords or Bosses for differing projects within the human experience. Phat writes:
Yes. Answer the question.
ringo writes:
Are you serious? Why are you assuming an all-wise and logical Deity in the first place? Phat writes:
So you contradict yourself. Jesus paid honor and respect to the publicans and sinners. Why would He want you to worship Him instead of doing as He did?
We pay honor and respect to human kings and dignitaries. Its not about them being petty or needy. Its about honoring them and giving them a place of honor at the head of the table rather than hanging out with the workers in the kitchen. Note, furthermore, that Jesus willingly did the latter. Phat writes:
Why wouldn't we? Why would we have any use for a god with lower standards than our own?
Since when are we insisting that God conform to our standards? Phat writes:
Why should we lower our standards? Why can't God raise His?
There has to be compromise at the very least between His standards and ours. Phat writes:
Yes indeed I do. Is that a surprise to you? Belief should never be anything but a last resort.
And yet I have noticed that you have low regard...contempt even...for belief. Phat writes:
The book is far more reliable than your imagination. Its because you limit Him to the book and have such contempt for belief in the first place.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I disrespect ICANT as a messenger because his messages are garbage.
Did you ever consider that messages get disrespected because whoever sent the messenger was never respected in the first place? Phat writes:
I agree with Tangle.
Note tangles reaction to my even talking with ICANT rather than insulting and belittling him as others do: "Your groveling to that hopeless fake is demeaning. You know I said you couldn't offend me? Well, your kowtowing to that charlatan comes very close." Phat writes:
Calling an ignorant person ignorant is not an insult.
Even if he was ignorant in regards to science is hardly a reason to insult him. Phat writes:
I'm not selective. And that has NOTHING to do with the rubbish about demons. ringo writes:
But it strengthens the case why human nature selectively villifies and attacks certain arguments or people and ignores others. That "demon" rubbish just weakens your case for God.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: You need to broaden your metaphor. God is more than simply a builder or a landlord.
The landlord has a say in what the tenant does on his property; the builder doesn't. So why conflate the builder with the landlord?Isa 9:6-7 writes: Thus we have no mere builder. No autocratic landlord. We have a counselor, a father figure, and a peacemaker. Human society can use those. Your problem is that you don't trust the God of the book, and are afraid to dare imagine One Who exists outside the book.
6 For unto us a Child is born,Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. NKJV In addition, you guys conflate simple fantasy and imagination...making things up...with an internal impression, communion, and conscience. Of course, you will argue that there is no evidence of such a presence apart from our own mental thoughts. Thus we are again at a stalemate. I know your position, however. You will argue that the message specifies that we are to do it ourselves. Be our own counselors. Fathers. Peacemakers. What you likely scoff at is the idea that we are becoming our own gods. But its true. Did you watch the Michio Kaku video? The Universe in a Nutshell (Full Presentation) It's a good video and I respect Dr.Kaku. But note the attitude. It's an unbridled optimism that humans will become like gods.To his credit, Dr.Kaku is honest about his beliefs. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo writes: Well actually you can but that isn't the point. I do agree that you need to be consistent in the way that you understand what is written in the 66 books that make up the library that we call the Bible. You have to start by reading what it says, no matter what time or culture it came from. You can't decide arbitrarily to reject the parts you don't like and accept the parts you do like. It is obvious that you don't read all the books the same way as, in spite of what fundamentalists might claim you cannot square the image of a god who would not only sanction but command genesis and public stonings, with the nature of God as revealed in Jesus where we are told to love our neighbour. If we are to understand the nature of the Christian God as espoused by Christianity then we look to Jesus, and not the simple understanding that you seem to be insisting that I should take.
ringo writes: ..and how have you determined this fact? Actually my beliefs aren't based on wishful thinking, but what I currently believe to be the truth. My beliefs have changed over the years and likely will again.
I agree that there may have been a real Jesus. Did He rise from the dead? No. Could His death and fictional resurrection "save" us from anything? No.The difference is that my conclusions are based on fact; yours are based on wishful thinking. GDR writes: If you like, we can go back to that rather hackneyed expression; "what would Jesus do?". He just wouldn't do it.ringo writes: Yes, the Bible said that Yahweh ordered genocide. As I have said many times that is what some scribe attributed to God for whatever reason. It is 100% incompatible with what Jesus taught in the Gospels and what the authors of the Epistles wrote.
And yet, if Jesus is God, He did. ringo writes: Why do you keep repeating the same thing over and over. I answered that previously. You keep insisting that the only way to understand the Bible is with a simple 21st century method of understanding literature. God did not intervene to cause a world wide flood but there is a truth in the form of a metaphor which can be gained from it. But that isn't what the story tells us. It says that if there is only one man who will accept God, then God is perfectly willing to destroy all of the others.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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