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Author Topic:   Evidence For Belief
ringo
Member
Posts: 18756
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 4 of 103 (846179)
12-30-2018 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
12-30-2018 3:29 PM


Re: Uncaused First Causes
Phat writes:

We don't have enough information to determine chemicals to be the initial uncaused cause.


It's the only evidence we have.

Phat writes:

One point that I have brought up before, however, is that evidence removes the belief from the equation entirely.


If there is evidence, there's no excuse for belief.

Phat writes:

Some argue that God, if God exists (and is the Christian version) wants people to have trust and belief in Him as a precondition to salvation.


Worst copout ever.

Leprechauns hide because they want you to have faith in them. The Loch Ness monster hides because she wants you to have faith in her. Bigfoot hides because he wants you to have faith in him. Martians hide because they want you to have faith in them. Phlogiston hides because it wants you to have faith in it. The earth pretends to be round because it wants you to believe it's flat.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 12-30-2018 3:29 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 12-30-2018 4:05 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18756
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 6 of 103 (846181)
12-30-2018 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
12-30-2018 3:58 PM


Re: Chemtrails
Phat writes:

Some of the greatest inventions and discoveries originated with speculation.


There's nothing wrong with speculation that's based on reality - but how can you invent something useful with no basis in reality?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 12-30-2018 3:58 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 12-30-2018 4:15 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18756
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 7 of 103 (846182)
12-30-2018 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
12-30-2018 4:05 PM


Re: Uncaused First Causes
Phat writes:

Creativity is evidence of a Creator.


You make the mistake that Faith constantly makes. Creativity is evidence of A creator - one of many - not THE Creator. In the case of humour, the creators are us.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 12-30-2018 4:05 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 12-30-2018 4:18 PM ringo has responded
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 06-19-2020 11:07 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18756
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 10 of 103 (846185)
12-30-2018 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
12-30-2018 4:15 PM


Re: Chemtrails
Phat writes:

Does subjective experience count as reality?


Are the twelve patients who think they're Napoleon really Napoleon?

Phat writes:

Does an eyewitness account count as evidence for reality?


It can be considered as evidence but no definite conclusions should be drawn from it.

Phat writes:

Or are we confining reality to the behavior of chemicals which we have known about and which evidently existed forever?


We're confining reality to reality. Otherwise, we wouldn't have bothered to make up words for fantasy, fiction, etc.

And those chemicals didn't exist "forever", only since some time after the Big Bang.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 12-30-2018 4:15 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 06-19-2020 11:32 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18756
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 11 of 103 (846186)
12-30-2018 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
12-30-2018 4:18 PM


Re: Uncaused First Causes
Phat writes:

Does creative intelligence simply evolve out of chemicals?


Why not? It's a brain function and brain functions are electrochemical.

Phat writes:

Do we have evidence that life and creativity can be reproduced in a lab?


Yes, going back to Miller-Urey.

Phat writes:

Is it so silly to speculate that in order for us to be creators suggests that there is likely "THE Creator"?


No sillier than it is to speculate that a hobbit could protect a magic ring from orcs and wizards. No more sensible either.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 12-30-2018 4:18 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by coffee_addict, posted 12-30-2018 4:43 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18756
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 13 of 103 (846189)
12-30-2018 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by coffee_addict
12-30-2018 4:43 PM


Re: Uncaused First Causes
Arachnopuppy writes:

I tend to get nervous when someone brings up the miller urey experiment. It only demonstrated that under certain conditions, organic chemistry occurs. There is a huge leap between that and a cell.


That's why I said, "going back to," Miller-Urey. Anybody who contends that life and non-life are fundamentally different is responsible for refuting ALL of the evidence since Miller-Urey.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by coffee_addict, posted 12-30-2018 4:43 PM coffee_addict has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18756
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 24 of 103 (846216)
12-31-2018 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
12-31-2018 8:35 AM


Re: Subjectively understanding objective evidence.
Phat writes:

Pastor ICANT gets my respect not for his observations about science...but for this statement which he made that sums up how I feel as well:

quote:
I don't trust religion or the religious. Most of them belong to the devil.

ICANT is as close to "the devil" as you're likely to get. Remember that "the devil" is the one who tells you what you want to hear, not what you need to hear.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 12-31-2018 8:35 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18756
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 40 of 103 (846277)
01-02-2019 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by GDR
01-01-2019 2:24 PM


Re: Subjectively understanding objective evidence.
GDR writes:

Fiction is quite differnt than allegory or delusion.


That isn't true. A century or so ago, authors of fiction went to great length to suggest that their stories were true. They found the manuscript in a bottle or they were told the story by somebody they met in a bar.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by GDR, posted 01-01-2019 2:24 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18756
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 41 of 103 (846279)
01-02-2019 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Phat
01-01-2019 3:02 PM


Re: Subjectively understanding objective evidence.
Phat writes:

The Bible was written to chronicle a very important truth in the lives of the people of that day and time.


So was The Lord of the Rings.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 01-01-2019 3:02 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by AZPaul3, posted 01-02-2019 3:35 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18756
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 43 of 103 (846283)
01-02-2019 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by AZPaul3
01-02-2019 3:35 PM


Re: Subjectively understanding objective evidence.
AZPaul3 writes:

Phat writes:

The Bible was written to chronicle a very important truth in the lives of the people of that day and time.


ringo writes:

So was The Lord of the Rings.


Ok, it's one of those moments for me, ringo. I missed something. Would you elaborate on that, please?

It seemed fairly straightforward to me. How does the Bible differ from The Lord of the Rings?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by AZPaul3, posted 01-02-2019 3:35 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 01-02-2019 3:56 PM ringo has responded
 Message 46 by AZPaul3, posted 01-02-2019 5:03 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18756
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 45 of 103 (846289)
01-02-2019 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Phat
01-02-2019 3:56 PM


Re: Subjectively understanding objective evidence.
Phat writes:

In contrast, the writers of the Bible were recording events that actually happened around them and the reactions of others who encountered these same events.


Were they? Was the author of Job at the board meeting where God and Satan agreed to torment Job? Was the author of Genesis in the Garden of Eden?

Phat writes:

The Bible was not simply made up on the spot.


It was made up on 66 or more spots.

Phat writes:

There is no evidence that the authors of the Bible were intentionally writing fiction.


There is no evidence that they weren't.

And since it IS fiction *cough* talking snake *cough* they were either intentionally writing fiction or they were intentionally lying or they were just plain wrong or....

Phat writes:

And it is most definitely the case with Jesus Christ.


Nope.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 01-02-2019 3:56 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18756
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 48 of 103 (877624)
06-19-2020 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phat
06-19-2020 11:07 AM


Re: Uncaused First Causes
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

There's nothing wrong with speculation that's based on reality - but how can you invent something useful with no basis in reality?


Thats my point.

Actually, that's my point. If your God has no basis in reality - i.e. no evidence that he's doing something in the world, what good is he?

Phat writes:

You cant nor did not invent the God i am discussing. At worst, you can claim that I invented Him, but perhaps you would need some evidence.


Apologists made up the God you believe in.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 06-19-2020 11:07 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18756
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 50 of 103 (877626)
06-19-2020 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Phat
06-19-2020 11:19 AM


Re: Quid Pro Quo, Dr. ringo
Phat writes:

Do you have any evidence that it was an accident?


Of course. People born into Christian cultures tend to be Christians, people who are born into Muslim cultures tend to be Muslims. If you had been born anywhere else in the world, do you think your beliefs would still be so American?

Phat writes:

Do you have any reason to assert that all beliefs are equally valid?


I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt by putting your foolish beliefs on the same plane as other more sensible beliefs. They are equal in the sense that they equally lack evidence. They are not all equally sensible or palatable.

Phat writes:

Might it not just be possible that some of us have the belief that is closest to reality...


You tell me. Is it possible that Zeus is closest to reality?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 06-19-2020 11:19 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 06-19-2020 11:44 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18756
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 53 of 103 (877633)
06-19-2020 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
06-19-2020 11:32 AM


Re: Chemtrails
Phat writes:

Belief is like a good insurance policy.


That's a poor analogy. There are thousands of insurance companies and your belief is that only one of them pays out.

Phat writes:

This is just silly talk.


Of course. It was intended to be silly. It's a parody of your belief in a hiding god.

Phat writes:

You can argue, as does jar, that humans create the gods they want. Thats a valid point. I disagree with it based on my own reasoning and my subjective experience.


If there's any reasoning involved, why don't you present it instead of just parroting the apologists?

Phat writes:

It seems clear to me also that GOD, if GOD exists and if GOD chose to relate to humans through Jesus, that He wont provide us with Objective proof (evidence for everyone) because it would essentially make us acknowledge Him and He wants that to be our decision and not our sane duty.


Polly want a cracker?

Phat writes:

Do we have any evidence that an uncaused first cause lit the fuse for this Bang you talk about?


As far as I know, we have no definitive evidence for ANY "uncaused cause". That's not an excuse for you to make one up.

Phat writes:

Is Stephen Hawking as wise as the Prophet Isaiah?


How would you go about measuring wisdom?

Phat writes:

On what evidence do you base your reply?


You're looking at a computer right now that Stephen Hawking understood and Isaiah didn't.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 06-19-2020 11:32 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Phat, posted 06-19-2020 12:20 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18756
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 54 of 103 (877634)
06-19-2020 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Phat
06-19-2020 11:44 AM


Re: Quid Pro Quo, Dr. ringo
Phat writes:

First of all, Christianity is not "American".


Your cult is.

Phat writes:

Second of all, there are Christians in every culture, even in Islamic Nations.


And there are Muslims in every culture. The point is that most people acquire their religion accidentally by being born into it.

Phat writes:

I await your evidence that there are more sensible beliefs than Christianity.


Read my posts. I have pointed out many times how nonsensical your beliefs are. For just one example, the idea that God sent his "son" (himself) so that we could kill him and only then could he forgive us.

Phat writes:

ringo writes:

They are equal in the sense that they equally lack evidence.

Objectively but not subjectively.

Will you ever learn? There is no such thing as subjective evidence.

Phat writes:

... I am personally unimpressed with Zeus.


But is it possible that he is closest to reality? That's what you asked me about your god.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 06-19-2020 11:44 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Phat, posted 06-19-2020 12:28 PM ringo has responded

  
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