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Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1273 of 1677 (846165)
12-30-2018 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1272 by Phat
12-30-2018 3:05 PM


Re: Knock yourself out
Phat writes:
You can make up any first uncaused cause that you like.
But chemicals are not made up. They exist objectively.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1272 by Phat, posted 12-30-2018 3:05 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1274 by Phat, posted 12-30-2018 3:20 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1275 of 1677 (846172)
12-30-2018 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1274 by Phat
12-30-2018 3:20 PM


Re: Chemtrails
Phat writes:
The idea that creation creates itself is like the idea that ye shall be as gods.
Remember that God confirmed what the snake said: Adam and Eve DID become like gods.
But that isn' t what we're talking about here. We're talking about whether an uncaused cause that actually exists makes more sense than a made-up uncaused cause.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1274 by Phat, posted 12-30-2018 3:20 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1276 by Phat, posted 12-30-2018 3:38 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1277 of 1677 (846175)
12-30-2018 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1276 by Phat
12-30-2018 3:38 PM


Re: Chemtrails
Phat writes:
Evidentially your chemicals make more sense. Philosophically and belief-wise, not so much.
How can philosophy and belief "make more sense" than reality?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1276 by Phat, posted 12-30-2018 3:38 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1278 by Phat, posted 12-30-2018 3:58 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1288 of 1677 (846215)
12-31-2018 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1283 by GDR
12-30-2018 9:42 PM


GDR writes:
OK, and what was the process responsible for the emergent properties, and the process for.........back to the big bang which resulted from what process and so on and so on....
You're only going back one step farther than I am. Tacking on an unevidenced God doesn't answer the question. Why does God exist?
GDR writes:
To work through the hearts and minds of His created creatures to steward and serve the creation.
Nope. That doesn't answer the question of why He existed before He created anything.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1283 by GDR, posted 12-30-2018 9:42 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1293 by GDR, posted 12-31-2018 3:16 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1299 of 1677 (846272)
01-02-2019 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1293 by GDR
12-31-2018 3:16 PM


GDR writes:
Time is the way we experience change in this life and it is all we know. I understand God to be outside of time as we experience it, and that He is infinite.
That still doesn't answer the question. Time isn't really relevant. If you can ask why the chemicals exist, it's just as valid to ask why God exists.
GDR writes:
... to my mind it makes a lot more sense than believing in an infinite regression of processes to produce us.
But you are the one who's introducing an infinite regression. I'm perfectly willing to stop at chemicals that "just exist". You are the one who wants to put God before the chemicals. I'm just pointing out that that introduces the infinite regression. Where did the God come from? And wherever He came from, where did the "wherever" come from? Etc.
If we're going to stop somewhere, we might as well stop at something that actually exists - i.e. chemicals.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1293 by GDR, posted 12-31-2018 3:16 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1300 by Phat, posted 01-02-2019 2:46 PM ringo has replied
 Message 1311 by GDR, posted 01-09-2019 8:33 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1301 of 1677 (846280)
01-02-2019 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1300 by Phat
01-02-2019 2:46 PM


Phat writes:
At the risk of sounding metaphorical, imagine if you were an inventor and created an intelligent robot. The Bot was programmed according to human specs, and once it became "alive" and active it began asking questions. One question it asked was ehy it existed. It then later asked why you existed, IF you existed, and what made you the Creator. The robots entire frame of reference was with itself...it simply could not imagine that you had created it.
*shrug* Is there a point to all of that?
Phat writes:
Why does everything have to be framed as existing or not existing according to your notebook of evidenced elements?
If something doesn't exist, why would I care about it?
Phat writes:
Why must humans define Gods personality and parameters?
You tell me. You spend more time defining God than I do.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1300 by Phat, posted 01-02-2019 2:46 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1302 by Phat, posted 01-02-2019 3:52 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1303 of 1677 (846286)
01-02-2019 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1302 by Phat
01-02-2019 3:52 PM


Re: Was There Awareness Or Was He Entirely Made Up?
Phat writes:
In the robot analogy, the only things that the robot *knows* exist are things programmed into its database, much as scientific evidence becomes real to you via evidence. The robot has no concept of belief, for belief is illogical. Lacking any need for God the way that I do, you patiently wait for programmable evidence.
So, in the analogy, where do theists fit in? According to their own theology, they're made by the same manufacturer as the robots. When they see things that aren't there, is that a bug?
Phat writes:
You have no frame of reference regarding a Being that you pray to or talk with.
Nobody does. Believers just believe they do.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1302 by Phat, posted 01-02-2019 3:52 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1304 by Phat, posted 01-02-2019 4:15 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1305 of 1677 (846290)
01-02-2019 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1304 by Phat
01-02-2019 4:15 PM


Re: Was There Awareness Or Was He Entirely Made Up?
Phat writes:
The robot has no hard data evidence, but it does have an internal memory of having heard a voice, seen an unexplained event, or had a problem resolved through no interaction with anyone else.
So answer the question. When a computer/brain has a memory that doesn't coincide with reality, is that a bug?
Phat writes:
How, in other words, would the robot connect the dots of multiple subjective experiences and form a hypothesis of a given belief?
It shouldn't, should it? If your computer "connected the dots" and took you to Porn R Us instead of EvC, would that be a good thing? You'd be telling it, "No! I want to go to EvC!" and it would be saying, "But I really, really, really believe you want to go to Porn R Us."
Phat writes:
In addition, some robots may be programmed with skepticism based on researching the data of many skeptics.
Skepticism is the basis of all programming. Programmers take nothing for granted. They have to assume that everthing WILL go wrong and be prepared for that. Nobody wants a computer that goes off on its own subjective tangents.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1304 by Phat, posted 01-02-2019 4:15 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1320 of 1677 (846694)
01-10-2019 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1311 by GDR
01-09-2019 8:33 PM


GDR writes:
The infinite regression argument can be used to refute either position.
But science doesn't regress infinitely. It only goes as far as the evidence goes. If there were any turtles, science would only consider the turtles that it can see.
The problem I have with your position is not that your belief fills in the gap beyond the visible turtles. The problem I have is that you pretend your position "makes more sense". It doesn't.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1311 by GDR, posted 01-09-2019 8:33 PM GDR has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1321 of 1677 (846695)
01-10-2019 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1315 by Phat
01-10-2019 3:38 AM


Phat writes:
Which is why logicians often are atheists.
Bus drivers are often atheists too. I don't know what point you think you have there.
Phat writes:
God as a concept is unquantifiable.
God can be quantified. He corresponds to the amount of Phlogiston in my fridge.
Phat writes:
I always thought that defining the regression as an uncaused first cause eliminated the need to ask what came before.
It does. The uncaused cause is physics - it eliminates the need to ask about a god that came before.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1315 by Phat, posted 01-10-2019 3:38 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1322 by Phat, posted 01-10-2019 1:50 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1323 of 1677 (846710)
01-10-2019 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1322 by Phat
01-10-2019 1:50 PM


Phat writes:
You deify human wisdom.
I've told you many times that that isn't true. I don't "deify" human wisdom. It's just that human wisdom is the only wisdom we have - and that includes you. If anything, I' m humanizing your so-called divine wisdom.
Phat writes:
You act as if we are better candidates for being creators than God is.
We have the advantage that we actually exist.
Phat writes:
Dont you see the error in this thinking process? It gives weight to the scripture (from the snake, mind you) that says we shall be as gods.
How is that an error? The snake was right. God said so.
Phat writes:
Of course you will have a clever rebuttal...
I don't need a clever rebuttal for a non sequitur.
Phat writes:
You forget that He establishes the parameters of His involvement and responsibility.
I don't "forget" that; it's made-up nonsense.
Phat writes:
My point is that you won't ever humble yourself to seek to understand Him.
Stop trying to psychoanalyze me.
Phat writes:
You keep attempting to define the terms of the contract.
If I have no say in the terms, it isn't a contract.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1322 by Phat, posted 01-10-2019 1:50 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1343 of 1677 (846910)
01-13-2019 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1338 by Faith
01-13-2019 9:04 AM


Re: Abundant Evidence of God
Faith writes:
Moses wrote and oversaw the writing of the Torah/Pentateuch and there was no gap of hundreds of years between its events and the writing since he was there during it all.
Moses was there during the creation? In the Garden of Eden? During the Flood? At the Tower of Babel? At Sodom and Gomorrah?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1338 by Faith, posted 01-13-2019 9:04 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1344 by Faith, posted 01-13-2019 1:36 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1345 of 1677 (846913)
01-13-2019 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1344 by Faith
01-13-2019 1:36 PM


Re: Abundant Evidence of God
Faith writes:
We were talking about the miracles that were given as evidence for God.
You point to the creation as evidence for God. You point to the Flood as evidence for God. You claimed that Moses was there for all of the Torah/Pentateuch and I pointed out that you were wrong.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1344 by Faith, posted 01-13-2019 1:36 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1347 by Faith, posted 01-13-2019 1:44 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1350 of 1677 (846919)
01-13-2019 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1347 by Faith
01-13-2019 1:44 PM


Re: Abundant Evidence of God
Faith writes:
I have never pointed to the Creation or to the Flood as evidence for God that I know of.
How - and more important why - would they have happened without God?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1347 by Faith, posted 01-13-2019 1:44 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1373 of 1677 (847012)
01-15-2019 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1371 by Phat
01-15-2019 10:22 AM


Re: Suffering with a loving God
Phat writes:
I figured you guys would challenge the autonomy of a Deity.
You're the one who's challenging the autonomy of the Deity by suggesting that He would have trouble handling the "Satan" character.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1371 by Phat, posted 01-15-2019 10:22 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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