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Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12707
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1236 of 1677 (846074)
12-27-2018 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1235 by ringo
12-27-2018 1:39 PM


Re: Spirituality At EvC
I doubt you will ever find your evidence. I don't need any more. Perhaps some of us have a propensity to believe and some of us have a propensity to demand evidence. The problem is, if you did have evidence, it would take away your responsibility to believe. You would simply be handed a fact.

The whole idea is to take that leap of faith...but you for some reason mistrust the God of the book. I can see why, and I don't fault you for it or think I'm right or think im any better off.... but I think you are proud that you logically decided not to believe. In my opinion, it had to do more with the hypocrisy within the church than it did with you waiting at the altar forever for evidence. I realize that I may have trouble finding an argument worthy of you to refute, but I also suspect that you would refute any and all that were given to you.

I see many problems with many beliefs and many believers....myself included. I commend you publically for what you say and do regarding following the message. I dont believe that humans are basically good, however. I believe that we need God. You will argue that so far there are no god candidates worthy of consideration. At that point, I gotta concede. I hae things to do today that are useful for others as well as myself. We can get back to this stuff later if you are around. I hope that you are doing well and that you got your back taxes caught up. I dont want to see you holding a sign on my way to work.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1235 by ringo, posted 12-27-2018 1:39 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1237 by ringo, posted 12-27-2018 1:58 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12707
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1245 of 1677 (846110)
12-29-2018 7:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1244 by AZPaul3
12-29-2018 6:49 AM


Physics-Cal Impossibilities Questioned
AZPaul3 writes:

I know, I know, we do not know everything and, besides, god can do anything. So people have ignorance in which to invest their hopes.

But when it comes to the most basic operations of the stuff and glue of this universe, which we know about as well as any one of ICANT's absolute truths can possibly be, this resurrection thing is a physical (physics-cal) impossibility.
I'm afraid there is no way around these items. Not without a lot of pure Majik of a kind never ever seen anywhere in anything else in this universe ... ever, and, frankly, Heisenberg and entropy deny even that.(...) ignorance provides a license to invent. That doesn't mean we are allowed to violate the sacred rules, the beatification of Heisenberg, the veneration of entropy.

I had to comment, as I see poor Greg getting evidentially put in his place. Many years ago I had a definite subjective experience. It was not based on ignorance...rather...it was based on my fully functioning 5 senses at the time....also experienced jointly with 3 friends. I have told it here at EvC before but will retell it again on request. It involved multiple voices..clearly audible..coming from a man seemingly possessed and/or in a trance.
Now granted, we all were young converts who were relatively newly hyped on a belief in Jesus Christ, His Spirit, and the realm of spiritual warfare described for us through books, other subjective experiences, and witness of similar phenom which we never had an opportunity to question. What stuck in my mind, after all of these years, is the simple fact that we all clearly heard the multiple voices, no trickery was involved or even possible given our surroundings, and we all to this day remember the same sequence of events. You argue that given what is known about physics, a resurrection is ruled out because such things do not happen. I would agree. Several audible voices coming out of a man in a trance also do not happen...certainly not in my own living room away from a place where such events could be staged. GDR argues with Percy that miracles can happen...whereas Percy logically concludes that they cannot...providing a logical argument why not. Were I to take that position, I would attempt in any and every way to challenge my own experience and attempt to falsify it in some way. Perhaps if all believers were subjected to such a scientific falsification method, a reasonable doubt could be planted in everyone's head.
In conclusion, my basic point is that subjective experience is allowed to question any and all sacred rules in pursuit of truth. Throughout antiquity, many witnesses would agree.
this resurrection thing is a physical (physics-cal) impossibility.
Which is why so much of the validity of the power of Christianity hinges on that one event. Were it ever proven that Jesus was simply a great man and nothing more, such a message would not resonate with me in regards to my knowing God any better. I would be in the camp that says that they were all made up embellished stories. Santa Claus was a lovely belief until I caught my Mother forging his signature on a gift. it was a brief letdown, but I brightened up knowing that she had taken his place. I have been a believer in a Risen Christ for 25 years. ringo has been trying to convince me that He is likely a myth and that humans are charged to take His place. Dr.Michio Kaku preaches the reality of physics and what creations have sprung from it. But as GDR says, or maybe it was Percy...that belief can be irrational.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1244 by AZPaul3, posted 12-29-2018 6:49 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1249 by AZPaul3, posted 12-29-2018 9:35 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 1296 by Pollux, posted 12-31-2018 9:42 PM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 1386 by Faith, posted 01-16-2019 12:00 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12707
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1247 of 1677 (846112)
12-29-2018 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1243 by Percy
12-28-2018 8:22 PM


If Its All The Same To You
Ive been attempting to follow along with you two...I applaud the lengthy posts, however. Addressing Percy,
Percy, responding to GDR writes:

If it's all the same God no matter what religion, including religions where Jesus plays no role, then of what possible difference could a resurrection make?

So many questions spring from this basic point! Is Allah the same "Father" whom Jesus prays to(communes with, internally represents, Trinitarianly IS part of, etc) If I recall correctly, jar used to argue that God was the same One for Jews, Muslims, and Christians. Tangle and ringo limit this God to a character in the book, arguing that God is fiction. Faith actually has a stronger argument when declaring Allah a fake. I could see an episode of maury now! In the case of 8-year-old Jesus and Mother Mary...*opens envelope*...Joseph, you are NOT the Father!

So we have two core beliefs to be challenged.
1) Was the Resurrection Real and is it relevant otherwise?
2) Was the Virgin Birth Real and does it matter?

Can the mythos survive as a humanist example or is the supernatural a prerequisite?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1243 by Percy, posted 12-28-2018 8:22 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1248 by Percy, posted 12-29-2018 9:18 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12707
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1265 of 1677 (846151)
12-30-2018 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1263 by Percy
12-30-2018 1:21 PM


Re: Ideas About A Refocused Topic
I just had a good idea for one. Let me propose one. Everyone see if you like it.

I shall call it Evidence For Belief.

Now let me go compile it.

I'll wait a few days before deciding to close this one or not. The arguments here are very well done...


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1263 by Percy, posted 12-30-2018 1:21 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12707
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1268 of 1677 (846158)
12-30-2018 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1266 by ringo
12-30-2018 1:45 PM


To count how much spare change you hand out.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1266 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 1:45 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1269 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 2:49 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12707
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1270 of 1677 (846162)
12-30-2018 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1269 by ringo
12-30-2018 2:49 PM


Humans are hardwired to ask why.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1269 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 2:49 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1271 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 2:59 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12707
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1272 of 1677 (846164)
12-30-2018 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1271 by ringo
12-30-2018 2:59 PM


Knock yourself out
You could i suppose. You can make up any first uncaused cause that you like. Humans have a strange imagination though. I think its true....ye shall be as gods.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1271 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 2:59 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1273 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 3:08 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12707
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1274 of 1677 (846167)
12-30-2018 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1273 by ringo
12-30-2018 3:08 PM


Chemtrails
The idea that creation creates itself is like the idea that ye shall be as gods. While it is true that we have an imagination and are creative, we are only really recreating what was created in the first place. there is no such thing as an original thought. You will then argue that the same applies to God. And you may also argue that there *could* be an original set of uncaused first chemicals.

Im learning to anticipate your answers before you make them.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1273 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 3:08 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1275 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 3:35 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12707
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1276 of 1677 (846173)
12-30-2018 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1275 by ringo
12-30-2018 3:35 PM


Re: Chemtrails
Evidentially your chemicals make more sense. Philosophically and belief-wise, not so much. Take this over to the new topic if you would. I want to focus all of our arguments in one thread concerning belief and evidence.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1275 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 3:35 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1277 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 3:51 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12707
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1278 of 1677 (846177)
12-30-2018 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1277 by ringo
12-30-2018 3:51 PM


Re: Chemtrails
http://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&m=846176#m846176

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1277 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 3:51 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12707
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1297 of 1677 (846235)
01-01-2019 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1296 by Pollux
12-31-2018 9:42 PM


Re: Demons
...And when they were cast into the pigs, what was the point of them causing the pigs to perish? The demons would have to find a new home somewhere anyway?

Why Did Jesus Kill The Pigs?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1296 by Pollux, posted 12-31-2018 9:42 PM Pollux has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12707
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1300 of 1677 (846278)
01-02-2019 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1299 by ringo
01-02-2019 2:11 PM


At the risk of sounding metaphorical, imagine if you were an inventor and created an intelligent robot. The Bot was programmed according to human specs, and once it became "alive" and active it began asking questions. One question it asked was ehy it existed. It then later asked why you existed, IF you existed, and what made you the Creator. The robots entire frame of reference was with itself...it simply could not imagine that you had created it.
ringo writes:

If we're going to stop somewhere, we might as well stop at something that actually exists - i.e. chemicals.

Why does everything have to be framed as existing or not existing according to your notebook of evidenced elements? Why must humans define Gods personality and parameters?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1299 by ringo, posted 01-02-2019 2:11 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1301 by ringo, posted 01-02-2019 2:52 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12707
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1302 of 1677 (846284)
01-02-2019 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1301 by ringo
01-02-2019 2:52 PM


Was There Awareness Or Was He Entirely Made Up?
ringo writes:

If something doesn't exist, why would I care about it?

In the robot analogy, the only things that the robot *knows* exist are things programmed into its database, much as scientific evidence becomes real to you via evidence. The robot has no concept of belief, for belief is illogical. Lacking any need for God the way that I do, you patiently wait for programmable evidence.
You spend more time defining God than I do.
I have a need to know Him. You seem unconcerned with God emotionally except to criticize the characters' behavior in the book. You have no frame of reference regarding a Being that you pray to or talk with. There is no need for any emotional acceptance or connection. Critics would, in fact, accuse believers of making this character up to fill their emotional need. I am simply pointing out that from my frame of reference, God as a character became real to me but I consciously did not make him up...I became aware of His presence.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1301 by ringo, posted 01-02-2019 2:52 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1303 by ringo, posted 01-02-2019 3:58 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12707
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1304 of 1677 (846287)
01-02-2019 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1303 by ringo
01-02-2019 3:58 PM


Re: Was There Awareness Or Was He Entirely Made Up?
So, in the analogy, where do theists fit in?
Theists represent a robot that has had a subjective experience (or more than one.) The robot has no hard data evidence, but it does have an internal memory of having heard a voice, seen an unexplained event, or had a problem resolved through no interaction with anyone else.
Nobody does.(Have a frame of reference) Believers just believe they do.

So a question: How would a programmer program the concept of belief into the robot? How, in other words, would the robot connect the dots of multiple subjective experiences and form a hypothesis of a given belief?

In addition, some robots may be programmed with skepticism based on researching the data of many skeptics. The robot basically retains what it is fed. The human, in contrast, retains what they want to retain or what feels best.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1303 by ringo, posted 01-02-2019 3:58 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1305 by ringo, posted 01-02-2019 4:32 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12707
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1308 of 1677 (846295)
01-02-2019 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1306 by AZPaul3
01-02-2019 5:28 PM


A Spirited Occasion
Then come over to the dark side. Let reality prevail.
Reality prevails no matter which side you decide to join. It takes more guts to believe in invisible spirits than it does to drink everclear.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1306 by AZPaul3, posted 01-02-2019 5:28 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 1309 by Percy, posted 01-02-2019 8:57 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
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