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Author Topic:   A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 285 of 378 (846407)
01-05-2019 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by ringo
01-05-2019 3:38 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
ringo writes:
As far as science is concerned, the resurrection is as impossible as the Flood, as impossible as Jesus flying up to heaven by flapping His arms.
It takes different amounts of evidence to convince different people. Science has little evidence to work within this case, but the absence of evidence is not a precondition towards evidence of absence. GDR was convinced without ever having seen the crime scene. You, on the other hand, need to show up like Columbo...snooping around and asking questions.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by ringo, posted 01-05-2019 3:38 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by ringo, posted 01-05-2019 4:21 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 293 by AZPaul3, posted 01-05-2019 5:41 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 303 of 378 (846440)
01-06-2019 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 301 by Tangle
01-06-2019 3:33 AM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Tangle writes:
I find it interesting that so much weight is put into what Paul is supposed to have said. The man never even met Jesus yet he's supposed to have all this knowledge of his intentions and message.
Such hubris! I can see your not having much respect for contemporary apologists---but having little or no respect for Paul smacks of uninformed arrogance. Where are your credentials? What do you do for a living? Sell cars?
Sometimes, people have arguments from ignorance. Other times they have arguments from arrogance. So where do you get your information? At best it is biased opinion based on this whole idea that without "evidence" there is no case for Christianity.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Tangle, posted 01-06-2019 3:33 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by Tangle, posted 01-06-2019 8:10 AM Phat has replied
 Message 318 by ringo, posted 01-07-2019 11:08 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 305 of 378 (846442)
01-06-2019 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 304 by Tangle
01-06-2019 8:10 AM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Do you think he ever met Jesus?
He claims that Jesus talked to him. Critics say he made the story up, as likely also would you. But then, of course, you think its all made up from the getgo. I suppose you have a right to your opinion, but what makes me mad is that you have studied this stuff so little. It almost seems as if you form your position on the fly, citing the absence of evidence with evidence of absence (or made up stories). Im just challenging your credentials.
Not that it's necessarily a bad argument...simply a presumptuous one.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by Tangle, posted 01-06-2019 8:10 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by Tangle, posted 01-06-2019 8:28 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 307 of 378 (846446)
01-06-2019 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 306 by Tangle
01-06-2019 8:28 AM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Tangle writes:
Do you ever read anything other than theocratic sites, stuff that deals with historicity?
Sometimes.
GotQuestions writes:
None of these considerations in any way establish that Paul had seen or heard Jesus personally prior to His atoning death at Calvary. We cannot say for sure whether or not Paul had ever met Jesus.
My assumption was that he had not. The only way that Paul met Jesus in spirit is because the account says that Jesus talked with him, and we know that Jesus had died. I suppose a mythicist such as Richard Carrier would say that the story was embellished. An apologist would likely claim that It *was* Jesus whom Paul talked to after being struck blind. My rudimentary of understanding the dogma would tell me that the Trinity is not composed of interchangeable parts...each essence has a distinct character. Thus for a voice to speak to Paul after Jesus death would infer what exactly?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Tangle, posted 01-06-2019 8:28 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by Tangle, posted 01-06-2019 8:57 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 309 of 378 (846449)
01-06-2019 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 308 by Tangle
01-06-2019 8:57 AM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
He met Jesus in Spirit.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Tangle, posted 01-06-2019 8:57 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by Tangle, posted 01-06-2019 9:53 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 320 of 378 (846473)
01-07-2019 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 319 by ringo
01-07-2019 11:16 AM


Re: The gospels are evidence!
You've made up category 2. You have no proof of the claim.
Pauls credentials are usually stated without controversy among scholars. Why do you insist on challenging them? One could ask where your credentials are.
These arguments are far more than simple logic problems. Lots of things can be disproven on paper, but we are interested in whether the rubber meets the road(to Damascus) or not.
I realize that I have invoked a couple of logical fallacies here, but you cant just go and make up a category 2.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by ringo, posted 01-07-2019 11:16 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by ringo, posted 01-07-2019 12:03 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 335 by Percy, posted 01-07-2019 5:17 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 322 of 378 (846475)
01-07-2019 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by Tangle
01-06-2019 8:57 AM


Double Post
Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and caldron bubble.

Edited by Phat, : double post

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Tangle, posted 01-06-2019 8:57 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 323 of 378 (846476)
01-07-2019 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by Tangle
01-06-2019 8:57 AM


It Never Would Have Spread Otherwise
Tangle writes:
Paul never met Jesus, yet the Christian church would not exist without him.
More precisely, the Christian Church would never exist if Jesus had never risen. Nobody would have ever heard of Him. You claim essentially that Paul took up the "myth" and ran with it to spread his own franchise, but that franchise never would have taken off either had the story never happened.
Acts 5:34-39 writes:
But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while. 35 Then he addressed them: "Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. 36 Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. 37 After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. 38 Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39 But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God." NIV
The story never would have spread with such fervor...especially in the modern era.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Tangle, posted 01-06-2019 8:57 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by Tangle, posted 01-07-2019 1:07 PM Phat has replied
 Message 336 by Percy, posted 01-07-2019 5:35 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 338 by Theodoric, posted 01-07-2019 5:55 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 325 of 378 (846478)
01-07-2019 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by Tangle
01-07-2019 1:07 PM


Re: It Never Would Have Spread Otherwise
Mormons piggybacked on Christianity. Without the Bible, the Book of Mormon never would have stood on its own.
Evidence from their own website
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Tangle, posted 01-07-2019 1:07 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by Tangle, posted 01-07-2019 1:26 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 327 of 378 (846481)
01-07-2019 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by Tangle
01-07-2019 1:26 PM


Re: It Never Would Have Spread Otherwise
I'll accept this argument. One could argue, however, that Paganism piggybacked on imagination---the art of making things up. Judaism was not arguably made up.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Tangle, posted 01-07-2019 1:26 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by Tangle, posted 01-07-2019 1:39 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 329 of 378 (846483)
01-07-2019 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by Tangle
01-07-2019 1:39 PM


Re: It Never Would Have Spread Otherwise
Ahhh the old "seen one seen em all" argument. The problem is, you haven't even seen One yet. Just as you never saw Santa Claus, right? Wrong. They all are not the same.
But let's take a break and go fishing. maybe you can teach me something I need to know.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by Tangle, posted 01-07-2019 1:39 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by Tangle, posted 01-07-2019 3:20 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 341 of 378 (846507)
01-07-2019 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by Tangle
01-07-2019 7:01 PM


Re: The Gospels as evidence
Tangle, to GDR writes:
You just said that if you wish upon a star your dream will come true.
Thats an oversimplification. Everyone knows that stars are incapable of changing anything..unless we were to take astrology seriously.
And so what if many believers have a preconceived outcome? You won't find life in a test-tube. You seem to be saying that believers have a need to believe and that sociology proves that they make things up. While I agree that we have a need to continue to believe, I would argue that in the solid cases, the belief was concluded from experience...not propaganda.
I have a question, though. If for the sake of argument we assume that your prior belief was every bit as strong as mine and that you also had some confirming experiences, what fact, facts, or bit of information caused you to reconsider your belief?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Tangle, posted 01-07-2019 7:01 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 344 by Tangle, posted 01-08-2019 3:49 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 345 of 378 (846519)
01-08-2019 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 344 by Tangle
01-08-2019 3:49 AM


Re: The Gospels as evidence
Tangle writes:
I didn't have any facts or experiences that changed my belief, I simply grew out of it.
I have seen few adults grow out of anything. It would be an interesting statistic to examine, however...lets see what I can find on the internet:
What Is Magical Thinking And Do We Grow Out Of It?
Why People Fear Growing Up and Functioning as Adults
And this from Quora:
Why don't more people grow out of believing in God the way they grow out of believing in Santa Claus?
Interesting articles.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Tangle, posted 01-08-2019 3:49 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by Tangle, posted 01-08-2019 9:53 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 346 of 378 (846522)
01-08-2019 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 343 by Percy
01-07-2019 9:28 PM


Re: The Gospels as evidence
Percy,addressing GDR writes:
I start from the point that the resurrection is unevidenced and just the sort of claim one would expect from religion. That today we also know it's scientifically impossible is just icing on the cake.
While I was looking up articles to support my post to Tangle, I found one that might be interesting to you also.
Religion: why faith is becoming more and more popular In which the following side article caught my eye:
The Guardian writes:
Science and religion
A key proponent of the incompatibility of science and religion is Richard Dawkins, the British evolutionary biologist, who has ridiculed creation and intelligent design theories.
But according to Rowan Williams, the former archbishop of Canterbury, efforts to pit science against religion are a phoney war. A YouGov poll carried out last year found that only 16% of believers accept the creation myth.
Another survey of 3,000 science, medical, technical, and engineering professionals in the UK, Germany and France, commissioned by the Scientific and Medical Network, found that 25% described themselves as atheists, and 45% as religious or spiritual.
Professor Eric Priest, a mathematician and a former president of the Royal Astronomical Society, said the supposed conflict between science and spirituality was outdated, and many scientists had a more subtle, nuanced view of the relationship, and recognise that questioning, imagination, creativity, reason, faith and community are common features of both science and religion.
In the US, a survey of scientists in 2009 found they were roughly half as likely as the general public to believe in God or a higher power. One in three scientists said they believed in God compared with 83% of the general population. Just under half the scientists polled said they had no religious affiliation, compared with only 17% of the public.
Jennifer Wiseman, a Christian astrophysicist and director of Dialogue on Science, Ethics and Religion, a programme of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, told ABC News that science was a wonderful tool for understanding the physical universe but religious belief provides answers to bigger philosophical questions in life. We are physically connected to the universe and I think we have a deeper connection as well.
Note this again:
many scientists had a more subtle, nuanced view of the relationship, and recognize that questioning, imagination, creativity, reason, faith, and community are common features of both science and religion.
The issue that we here are discussing specifically is whether a belief can be said to be historical and on what grounds? Also whether a belief, a dogma, and an imagination can be critically examined by science minds without being rejected.
Which leads to the question: Is the Resurrection relevant as a doctrine? Is it necessary? I wwas taught unequivocably yes. That it was a core doctrine.
GDR is attempting to prove this fact and pleads for allowing the belief to stand as valid evidence. Percy is using scientific reason to label it as dogmatic and irrelevant as evidence.
The bottom line? Will GDRs beliefs stand without the Resurrection as evidence?
My argument? Scientific methodology should not shape a creed, belief, or doctrine. Further, such beliefs are the equivalent of evidence for all practical purposes in a believers world view. Though I dont know what the scientists polled would think.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by Percy, posted 01-07-2019 9:28 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by Percy, posted 01-09-2019 11:10 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 355 of 378 (846794)
01-11-2019 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 354 by Faith
01-11-2019 2:34 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
He will likely use his classic fallback position of *lack of evidence*. ringo is rarely if ever fueled by belief.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by Faith, posted 01-11-2019 2:34 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by Faith, posted 01-11-2019 6:41 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 358 by ringo, posted 01-12-2019 11:12 AM Phat has not replied

  
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