Violence in the Bible and the Quran

GDR writes:Well I get your point, but it does seem to matter.

If however we have a holy book that goes in the direction of caring and then trending to vengeful it can be more of a problem, for those prone to accept the violent view.

Stile writes:If your point is that it matters in a greater, overall sense then this is false as long as you cannot provide anything that indicates an issue with one of the objective facts:Both holy books contain descriptions of violence.
Both religions have minor groups that use the descriptions of violence in the books as support for their violent actions.
Both religions have majority groups that denounce the use of the books as support for any/all violent actions.

GDR writes:I also notice that there were subtle changes in my life, particularly in how I talked about people and how I related to them. This is pretty much meaningless to anyone else, but it was a big deal for me and has made a big difference in my various relationships.

It seems to me that either book can and has been used to promote violence.

GDR writes:I know this is a very rambling post but hopefully mostly on topic.

It seems to me that either book can and has been used to promote violence. Atheistic principles have been used to promote violence. People who want to commit violence will hang their hat on anything to justify their actions.

Faith writes:Prove it.

But Islam does promote violence in its "holy" books and the Bible does not no matter how you try to twist historical accounts into such an idea.

The results speak for themselves and are still the same:Both holy books contain descriptions of violence.
Both religions have minor groups that use the descriptions of violence in the books as support for their violent actions.
Both religions have majority groups that denounce the use of the books as support for any/all violent actions.

SPECIFICALLY COMMANDS THE READER to kill people

The Islamic teaching of 'naskh' or 'abrogation' means that later revelations abrogate or supersede earlier revelations when they are in tension. Qur'an 2:106, 13:39, and 16:101 are relevant passages on this Islamic teaching.We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent? (Qur'an 2:106, Sahih International)Allah eliminates what He wills or confirms, and with Him is the Mother of the Book. (Qur'an 13:39, Sahih International)And when We substitute a verse in place of a verse - and Allah is most knowing of what He sends down - they say, "You, [O Muhammad], are but an inventor [of lies]." But most of them do not know. (Qur'an 16:101, Sahih International)Going back to the context of Qur'an 2:106, we see something interesting in ayah 109. It talks about how the 'People of the Scripture' (Jews and Christians) which were trying to dissuade Muslims from believing in Islam. Muslims were told to 'pardon and overlook' the actions of these Jews and Christians 'until Allah delivers His command.' When Allah gives that new command, Muslims would no longer need to pardon and overlook these actions.Many of the People of the Scripture wish they could turn you back to disbelief after you have believed, out of envy from themselves [even] after the truth has become clear to them. So pardon and overlook until Allah delivers His command. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent. (Qur'an 2:109, Sahih International)In fact, this occurred once Qur'an 9:29 was revealed. At that point, Muslims were explicitly commanded to fight those (1) who do not believe in Allah or the last day, (2) who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful, and (3) who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture. Woah, that abrogates the pardoning and overlooking of Qur'an 2:109. Unless they paid jizyah, they were to be killedFight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled. (Qur'an 9:29, Sahih International)In Qur'an 9:5, we see the similar fate of the polytheists. Unless they repented, established prayer, and paid zakah, they were to be killed wherever they where found.And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. (Qur'an 9:5, Sahih International)I bring up surah 9, known as Surah At-Tawbat or Surah Al-Bara'ah, because it is clear from Hadith (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, Book 60, No. 129) that it is the last surah chronologically. Therefore, surah 9 contains the final marching orders of Allah and Muhammad.The last Sura that was revealed was Bara'a, and the last Verse that was revealed was: "They ask you for a legal verdict, Say: Allah's directs (thus) about those who leave no descendants or ascendants as heirs." (4.176) (Sahih al-Bukhari: Vol. 6, Book 60, No. 129)Peace is not what is being promoted here. Offensive violence is what is being promoted here. As per the Islamic teaching of abrogation, a verse can only be superseded by something better. It is clear therefore that Allah and Muhammad view violence as something better than peace.Though the Islamic conception of Allah would rather punish than pardon and overlook, the Judeo-Christian God is one who pardons all iniquities and covers them. Infinite justice could only be satisfied when the infinite God took it upon Himself on the Cross of Calvary. This God with such as self-sacrificial love does not want any to perish but for all to come to repentance.And their sins and their lawless deeds
I will remember no more. (Hebrews 10:17, NASB)The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9, NASB)The judgements which the Judeo-Christian God carried out against nations in the Old Testament were warranted, were the result of much patience, and were specific in scope. The wars were against nations that had committed heinous iniquities such as passing children through the fire in sacrifice to gods such as Molech (Leviticus 18:21, Leviticus 18:24-30, Deuteronomy 18:9-11). We see God's patience with how He waited 4 generations or 400 years before carrying out judgement against the Amorites (Genesis 15:13,16). He eventually gave a specific command to the Israelites concerning such nations with further guidance along the way (Deuteronomy 20:17).Ultimately, we have to understand these judgements, and the judgments in the Mosaic law given specifically for Old Testament Israelites, were commanded by the one who is the objective point of reference for morality. In situations where an individual disagrees with God's judgements, it is important to remember it is futile to think that one's subjective perception of morality supersedes an objective point of reference for morality. In the case of Islam, unlike the Judeo-Christian worldview, the judgements proceed from what is clearly a false religion.What is in found in the Judeo-Christian texts are in stark contrast to the offensive wars waged by Muhammad against polytheists and Jews and Christians. Various Islamic texts, including the open-ended last marching order found in surah 9, are a legitimate basis for the deadly consequences of Islamism in our world.

maybe I can come back leter

Faith writes:Name ONE "minor group" that uses the Bible as you claim...

Faith writes: You are making up a bunch of crap. You know nothing at all about these things. Do you remember the CROWDS in the Middle East CELEBRATING THE ATTACKS ON 9/11? Wake up, you are a dangerous ignoramus.

Your "points" are total fabrications.