A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism

I just skimmed through our posts and all I see is your Wikipedia reference which doesn't give any numbers but obviously refers to an extremely small number of incidents that lasted only a few years, and otherwise you just give examples from Islam and the RCC which I simply elaborated on. I didn't add more. All you have, as I said, is Islam and the RCC and a minuscule number of Protestants, which was MY point. Your attempt to put all "fundamentalists" in the same basket does not work. How odd.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

And I pointed out that the Protestant examples are always extremely few and quickly given up because it is recognized they violate the teachings of Biblical Christianity. I already explained that the RCC and Islam had no such compunctions. And still don't. And never will.Some other religions do persecute heretics too, such as the Zoroastrianism you point out. Hindus have stepped up their persecutions of the Christians in India recently for instance. Islam goes on enslaving and persecuting people all over Africa and the Far East and wherever they are. And again this is due to their ideology that says this is a good thing because Allah wants them to subjugate and overcome everyone on the planet that rejects him. Well I've pointed that out myself a few times, though the official "Spanish" Inquisition was really only a small part of their persecutions and murders of dissidents down the centuries. They've never closed the Office of the Inquisition which they would have if their occasional "apologies" meant anything, and they've never rescinded their long list of anathemas (curses) against Protestant beliefs in their Council of Trent. When Garibaldi conquered Rome in the 19th century he found dungeons still in use for torturing heretics. And I also quoted a letter from a Mexican pastor about how the Catholics were persecuting a group of Indian Protestants. I'll see if I can find those links. Since the Protestant Reformation set them back on their heels they've taken pains to keep it hidden from public view but it will never stop and if they ever regain their power it will no doubt come out in the open again. I'll see if I can dig up links to my posts on the subject.That was quick: Message 327Turns out I've brought it up quite a few times but it gets repetitive. Here are two more: Message 283 and Message 97ABE: However, I think it should also be mentioned since you think religions are the only offenders that Communism has killed many more and Hitler did too. In the name of secular ideologies, and Communism is still persecuting dissidents in China where the Christians are being particularly targeted recently.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

God commanded His Old Testament nation of Israel to do that. We are not the Old Testament theocracy of Israel and Christians do not apply those commands to ourselves. I'll not say never because you may be able to dig up a couple of crackpots or a sect that temporarily thought it was supposed to obey those commands, but as a general rule no, it's not Christian and Bible-believing Protestantism does not follow those commands.Besides, you ought to be able to tell when you are reading about a historical event and not a direct command to the reader, or do you feel obligated to obey, say, commands reported to have been given by military leaders in some historical account of some historical war? Oh blithering nonsense. The Protestant Reformation certainly wielded enough state power to do that if it were true since all the nations of northern Europe became Protestant, had Protestantism for their state religion, and Luther could have made himself the Protestant Pope and had an Inquisition to rival Rome's if he'd wanted to. But it didn't happen, did it? Because it's a complete violation of Biblical Christianity.

Well, it is a kind and merciful act if you understand it, which of course you don't. That is, this world is ruled by Satan and his demonic hordes, or was until Jesus defeated them at the cross, and God entered history beginning with Abraham for the purpose of saving us from them, which in the case of ancient Israel meant eliminating their influence through their captive followers by strongly punishing them. All those punishments were also meant to be admonitions to us now in the sense that they show us God's heart toward the evildoers and foreshadow their final doom. No, but they are defeated thanks to Jesus' sacrifice, though the trial and sentencing await Jesus' return; and the influence of Christ in the world has been very effective until the last few decades. Their influence is unfortunately increasing again despite their being defeated. However, God's people are not an earthly theocracy so our weapons now are entirely spiritual. We now understand that we are not in a war against human beings but against "the powers and principalities in high places" meaning the demons. Everything that doesn't apply to us. Context, context. Weird, I thought you said fundamentalists would happily kill heretics if we had the power. Reading it "literally" really means reading it as it was written and meant to be read and we certainly do read it the way it was meant to be read. We don't read historical accounts of God's dealings with His ancient people as commands to ourselves, though we do read it all as education in the nature of God and His Law that runs this universe. You quoted God's instructions to Israel, clearly in the context of their culture at the time. They do not apply to us in that form.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Only a morally confused person totally ignorant of truth and reality would reduce justice to murder.

The Babylonians smashed the heads of the babies of the Israelis; they were paying them back on their own,not ordered by God. As for whatever God Himself ordered that included all members of any tribe, it's about spiritual contamination even though we may not understand any of that these days. Our standards of justice today don't include such things. I could guess that it could have something to do with demonic influence but I don't know either and I'm quite sure I couldn't convince anyone here about that sort of thing anyway. Nevertheless I do believe we are currently under assault by hordes of demons because of our moral failures over the last few decades. Both in and outside of the churches. But our methods today are spiritual and not against human beings anyway. I see the churches as seriously at fault for not opposing all the doctrinal errors that have grown up in this time and are no doubt the real reason for the deterioration of the culture.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I thought we were talking about what God did in the times of ancient Israel. In that context His aim was to keep His people separate from the idolatrous demon-worshiping influences of the neighboring tribes.

I'm guessing the babies were demon-possessed. That is in fact a consequence of serious sin and idolatry among a people. I think it's happening today too, that a lot of people are demon-possessed these days because of the unchecked sin, in most cases probably misidentified as mental illness of some kind.

I suppose so, but it was my best guess as to why babies were included in the punishment, and since that isn't persuasive the only answer I have is that God ordered it and God cannot do anything that isn't just. End of story.

As I said, if God ordered it, it is just. You don't have to see the justice if you know God ordered it. If you had any clue to the reality of God you couldn't talk the way you are talking. The Bible is God's word, if it tells me God did something, then God did it, not Satan. That's because you don't believe in God and have no idea of what He is like. He defines what is just and He sees everything, past and future and all the ramifications of every act, so rightly your finite ability to understand has to yield. Not if you were a member of the ancient Jewish army and had even a smidgen of a clue to His reality. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Armies and nations cannot "turn the other cheek," only individuals can. You can't turn the other cheek for someone else, only yourself. Unfortunately there are times in this world when war is necessary, sad but true.Yes, the Israelites did fail to completely drive out all the idolatrous nations as God had commanded them. As a result later on they succumbed to the idolatrous religions themselves, and in the case of the Canaanites learned to sacrifice their babies to the Canaanite god Molech. I guess according to you it's being Christ-like to be kind to child sacrificers and let them live, even if by doing so you are disobeying God and setting up your people to become child sacrificers too?I'm not asking you to believe in the inerrant Bible, I'm explaining the traditional view that if it is God's word we know God can only be good and just so that His ordering the annihilation of a whole people is good and just. It's very hard for us to understand of course, but if God ordered it then it is good and just.I certainly don't WANT the Bible to report such harsh things, GDR, I'm simply an orthodox Bible-believing Christian who believes in the inerrant Bible along with all the other traditionalists, so I take the position that I'm to learn from it something about the nature of God. If you criticize it you'll never learn anything, you'll just continue in your own preconceived judgments, in your case your very small idea of what Jesus is like. To me Jesus is the God of both Testaments. Now I know for sure you share the heresy of Robert Schuller, this idea that people can be Christians who never heard of Christ or even reject Him though they've heard of Him. However, "there is no other NAME under heaven by which we must be saved" than Jesus Christ, so nobody can be a Christian without knowing His name and believing in Him.Oh I'm sure all kinds of unbelievers are very nice people, but that doesn't make them Christians.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Or, the Name of Jesus has depths to it way beyond a mere name. His entire character is in His name.I don't mean to short shrift this conversation, I hope to come back to it later, but I can't finish it right now. I just saw that last sentence and wanted to answer it.

True, you didn't say unbelievers can be Christians. What you said was I would of course suoppose that if someone "has Christ in his heart" he has to be a Christian, but apparently you are making a distinction. Perhaps not much of a distinction though. Sounds like you might put vimesey above a lot of Christians anyway, even as more favored by God?

Well, actually they can't, according to scripture: "Without faith you cannot please God" says the scripture. Salvation is the foundation of the Christian life. Without it there is no Christian life at all. Without salvation there is no Holy Spirit, without the Holy Spirit there is no Christian love and no real knowledge of Christ Himself.It was Jesus himself who said we must be born again, and what is that but the transformation by a new birth that comes from heaven and changes us, which is what salvation is. He also said "The Son of Man came to seek and to save that which is lost." and "I came to save sinners, not the righteous," and quoted Isaiah 61 to the effect that He came "to set the captives free, to give the oil of gladness for mourning," etc etc etc. Was it Christ or Paul who said He came to be a "ransom for many?" Lots there from Jesus Himself about our need to be saved and His mission to save us.But you keep sounding like we aren't to expect to receive anything from Christ except the ability to love others, it would be selfish of us to focus on our own salvation. Yet without salvation from sin we are unable to communicate with God and unable to have any of that love you keep talking about. Absolutely. Though we also must have other gifts, such as the gift of wisdom and the gift of prophecy which means knowing God's heart, and the gift of being salt which stems the natural corruptions of the fallen world and the gift of giving light which shines in the darkness of fallenness. But if we aren't saved, meaning if our sins are not forgiven, if we are still fallen creatures, then we are still selfish and blind to the things of God and can't offer any of that.We have to be regenerated by Him to be fit for His kingdom. "Flesh and blood cannot inherit" the Kingdom of God. Absolutely. You seem to think that's possible without the radical transformation which is salvation. It's not.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Scarily true if it's the Jesuits doing the training. But the Bible also says "Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it." \However, even cultists CAN be deprogrammed so there is always hope when the childhood training is evil.