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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 612 of 1444 (843104)
11-13-2018 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 608 by Tangle
11-13-2018 4:33 AM


Re: Definition of free will
The existence of free will either disproves god or proves that he is either evil or reckless.
Nonsense. Who cares what God could know? To put it another way, let's personify reality. Reality knows what I will do tomorrow. Does that mean I am incapable of doing otherwise? See how silly it all sounds? We have free will within the parameters of reality. Thus, your argument has no steam in saying that we don't have free will.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 608 by Tangle, posted 11-13-2018 4:33 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 623 by Tangle, posted 11-13-2018 11:18 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 615 of 1444 (843108)
11-13-2018 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 613 by ringo
11-13-2018 10:41 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Oh, I think I get it. To you, free will means being freely out from under the control of the overlord's destiny.
In other words, you should have the right to choose whatever you want without being bound by the preconditions of destiny.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 613 by ringo, posted 11-13-2018 10:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 617 by ringo, posted 11-13-2018 10:54 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 616 of 1444 (843109)
11-13-2018 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 614 by ringo
11-13-2018 10:45 AM


Re: Definition of free will
What's so bad about a world without earthquakes, tsunamis, forest fires, etc.? What's so bad about a world in which a man who is about to do a mass shooting is struck by lightning? I could live with a God who exerted that kind of useful control.
True, it does sound attractive. And it does place God on the stand. He now must explain why He does not intervene as we suggest He should.
Will The Real God Please Explain Himself?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 614 by ringo, posted 11-13-2018 10:45 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 618 by ringo, posted 11-13-2018 10:55 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 619 of 1444 (843113)
11-13-2018 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 617 by ringo
11-13-2018 10:54 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Why should there be any "preconditions of destiny"?
It sounds autocratic to suggest that God foreknows all destiny. If we substitute the word "reality" for God, does it sound as bad to suggest that reality "knows" all destiny? Perhaps you think that hell is an unnecessary precondition.
Which gives ringo compleeeeeat freedom to do whatever his pea-picking soul desires. Reality itself may impose preconditions on your carnal fest.
Perhaps choosing vanilla has unforeseen consequences down the road... a road that we who are bounded by time cannot see.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 617 by ringo, posted 11-13-2018 10:54 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 622 by ringo, posted 11-13-2018 11:12 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 620 of 1444 (843114)
11-13-2018 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 618 by ringo
11-13-2018 10:55 AM


Re: Definition of free will
and atheists will continue to use evidence to predict an uncertain future. God forbid they ever dare believe anything without evidence. Why have hope? Wait for the evidence.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 618 by ringo, posted 11-13-2018 10:55 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 626 by Tangle, posted 11-13-2018 11:26 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 627 by ringo, posted 11-13-2018 11:34 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 624 of 1444 (843120)
11-13-2018 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 621 by Tangle
11-13-2018 11:10 AM


Re: Definition of free will
So basically, believers trust that God exists and that it is our responsibility to tow the line...whereas you doubt that God exists but that IF He does, He had better get off His almighty arse and do His job.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 621 by Tangle, posted 11-13-2018 11:10 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 625 of 1444 (843121)
11-13-2018 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 623 by Tangle
11-13-2018 11:18 AM


Re: Definition of free will
I said that the existence of free will demonstrates that god is evil or reckless or, in fact, not god.
And I fail to see how there is even a possibility that free will would make a God necessarily evil. Unless, as you may charge, He is failing to do His job.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 623 by Tangle, posted 11-13-2018 11:18 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 634 of 1444 (843193)
11-14-2018 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 633 by Tangle
11-14-2018 11:06 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Personally, I'll go with the argument that suffering builds character and makes for stronger human prototypes to someday launch out into space. Are you suggesting that a loving God would build a Heaven for us to all dwell in now? (As my loving Father, the homebuilder, built a home for us when I was small?) I say we humans are far too weak and flawed to dwell in such a lavish place. Unless of course, God remade us stronger, kinder, and gentler. Some would argue that He is letting us strengthen ourselves. You have mentioned that society is improving...we are becoming more moral...with or without a God or the approval or scrutiny of One.
Of course, some of my religious contemporaries cling to that whole original sin idea...claiming that what we really need is the establishment of Communion with said God. You may argue that it is God Who needs improvement rather than us. Funny argument that. jar always pushed that crap...that human corrected the god character. But as long as we are imagining One, I suppose we can suggest improvements...

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 633 by Tangle, posted 11-14-2018 11:06 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 635 by Tangle, posted 11-14-2018 11:32 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 636 of 1444 (843216)
11-14-2018 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 635 by Tangle
11-14-2018 11:32 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Tangle writes:
Really Phat, stop projecting, put your prejudices away and start understanding that atheists are fully human too.
Oh, stop! I obviously know all too well that you and ringo are both quite human and quite likable...otherwise, I would never bother going rounds with you. I was just getting frustrated at ringos arguments. You make many of the same ones in your own unique style. To be honest, your arguments occasionally resonate with me and I honestly can't shrug them off as adamantly as Faith does. The way that you describe the belief does make it sound ridiculous at times.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 635 by Tangle, posted 11-14-2018 11:32 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 637 of 1444 (846606)
01-09-2019 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by ringo
07-21-2015 12:45 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:
What if at exactly this moment, another serial killer had just purchased a large cache of weapons and was heading towards the High School.
ringo writes:
How can you possibly excuse a God who would not stop him?
How can one imagine a way that God *would* stop him?
  • Cause a change of mind? Nope...free will + evidence that shows that people don't get stopped.
  • Lightning Bolt? Evidence shows rare examples of intervention, but arguably it was random anyway.
  • Give foreknowledge to police? Well they have used psychics before, but thats other spirits anyway.
    Seriously though...IF God existed, what demand would or should humanity place on His responsibility of office?
    AddbyEdit: He likely would inform us that it was our responsibility to have treated the mentally deranged person with more love years before this happened. So where does the buck stop? Gods desk or ours?
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 133 by ringo, posted 07-21-2015 12:45 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 638 by ringo, posted 01-09-2019 3:57 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 639 of 1444 (846609)
    01-09-2019 4:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 638 by ringo
    01-09-2019 3:57 PM


    Re: ** FOREknowledge**
    Like you say, the evidence shows that we have to do it. Maybe thats why you consider Him unnecessary even if He did exist.
    Perhaps He wants it this way...for us to develop empathy and compassion without help.
    Or perhaps He does not exist, but that wont hinder my belief. The lesson I need to learn is that He likely expects me to do it myself. *grumble grumble*.....
    ICANT argues that God has never let him down and that they commune daily. I will make the same claim, and I won't rule out that God is actively involved...just by giving me quiet encouragement. Why feel alone in this universe? (For those of us who are unmarried)
    Edited by Phat, : added jabberwocky

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 638 by ringo, posted 01-09-2019 3:57 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 641 by ringo, posted 01-09-2019 4:24 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 640 of 1444 (846610)
    01-09-2019 4:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 638 by ringo
    01-09-2019 3:57 PM


    Re: ** FOREknowledge**
    If God has ANY power, why wouldn't He use it?
    One could argue that He gave us the power and expects us to develop it.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 638 by ringo, posted 01-09-2019 3:57 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 658 by ringo, posted 01-10-2019 10:36 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 642 of 1444 (846615)
    01-09-2019 4:28 PM
    Reply to: Message 641 by ringo
    01-09-2019 4:24 PM


    Re: ** FOREknowledge**
    This whole attitude that humans are capable of or expected to prod God into action is just silly. Either do it yourself and don't trust Him or admit that what you ask is, in fact, a prayer request and go ahead and pray it or acknowledge that you did.
    You switch back and forth from scripture to counter-apologetics as fast as Pharoah turned his head. Hypothetically, would you resist prayer on the grounds that you rate belief lower than low?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 641 by ringo, posted 01-09-2019 4:24 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 647 by ringo, posted 01-09-2019 5:06 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 643 of 1444 (846618)
    01-09-2019 4:32 PM
    Reply to: Message 242 by ringo
    07-28-2015 11:54 AM


    Re: ** FOREknowledge**
    If we have "free will", we should be free to consider God wrong, from our point of view.
    Ok, then what? Him being wrong doesn't change anything.
    What annoys me is the idea that God already has my place in Hell reserved, that I don't even know yet what it is that will send me there but He does - and YOU have the gall to suggest that its my choice.
    It may well be a choice of yours down the road. Who cares if He knows it before you did? You still have to go through the motions of making the decision. And who is to say that he altars that in any way...apart from foreknowledge?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 242 by ringo, posted 07-28-2015 11:54 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 646 by ringo, posted 01-09-2019 5:03 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 644 of 1444 (846619)
    01-09-2019 4:35 PM
    Reply to: Message 641 by ringo
    01-09-2019 4:24 PM


    Re: ** FOREknowledge**
    I gave the examples of God messing with Pharaoh's head and genociding Sodom and Gomorrah.
    God may have been stimulating Pharoahs conscience. The issue may have been what Pharaoh's eventual destiny would become. As for Sodom, they made their own bed. Volcanos happen.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 641 by ringo, posted 01-09-2019 4:24 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 645 by ringo, posted 01-09-2019 4:59 PM Phat has not replied

      
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