Would Paul go contrary to God's commandments? If not, then what does he mean by the statements you cite?
Even Jesus didn't keep the letter of the law but the intent of it. Why? Because he was to usher in a new dispensation where the Holy Spirit essentially replaced the letter of the law. At Penticost the Holy Spirit entered into Christians giving them a new spiritual birth, i.e born again so the Holy Spirit now directs Christians as to how to apply the Sabbath on any given Sabbath day. That's why Paul said the things he said regarding it.
Thus I do not consider myself condemned for not keeping the letter of the Jewish law.
Paul also said something like "man is not for the sabbath, but the sabbath for man." In other words, it's healthy and good to forget business and work just to relax, do church, et al. Man needs the Sabbath rest.
To the office worker who's at a desk 5 or six days, likely going fishing would be good sabbath rest whereas to a laborer, a more restful day would be better. Jesus and the apostles appeared to do church/temple on Sabbath.
BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
quote:1. Animal sacrifices and the 7th day rest was in Genesis before Abraham and Jews, though not spelled out in detail as they were later under Levitical law.
True concerning placement, but interesting because if we look at the Documentary Hypothesis, we find that that portion of Genesis is considered to be written by the Priestly writer.
If they are accurate in that thought, then that statement was probably written not long before the fall of Jerusalem in 587BCE. Even the references to the sabbath in Exodus are considered part of the Priestly writing.
So they probably wrote of the current tradition, but whether the practice truly existed before the time of Abraham would be questionable.
Even the Jews don't add that to the list of the Noahide Laws.
I know you don't accept the documentary hypothesis view of the Bible and I'm not really looking for a response from you, but wanted to comment from that perspective.
"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
Alright, I will tell you one thing, I have never read once in the bible anything that has ever told me not to keep the sabbath. Which is the seventh day. Which is saturday.
"When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Therefore, donâ€™t let anyone judge you by what you ear or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." -Colossians 2:16
Give me the reasons why the pope has such great power he can change it to sunday or why christs resurrection would possibly mean that sunday should be his day of worship. Also, if you look at that, you can see that he did not resurrect on saturday, but waited over that day so he did not have to do it on the sabbath and actually waited til sunday.
Anastasia has done a good job of explaining the administrative reason for how and why it was changed in the early Christians times, and Jar has done a great service to explain what the Sabbath means for Christians and that God created for us. For a Hasidic Jew, this is simply unacceptable, as well it should be in accordance to the Torah. It is only until they accept Yeshua as their Moshiac that they will no longer live under the Law, but by the grace of the Law.
Now, please remember, if you can give me evidence enough to tell me why we have the reason to change the holy day god made on saturday to sunday rather than going on saturday, I have an open mind. I am willing to change if you can give me the reasons why. I want to do what the bible says, what God's word is, not what somebody else tells me or what i think would be easier.
"They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain." But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.
For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with the people and said:
"The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear." -Hebrews 8:5-13
"One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord" -Romans 14:5-8
I hope this helps you from a Christian perspective. If you have any other questions regarding the matter, feel free to ask.
"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
It is so enjoyable how folks explain it away and away and away. Explain it away and it goes away. God has requirements of Jews but not of Christians, Catholics make unauthorized changes, but insist the absolute power they assume gives them absolute power. The commandments apply to all, but not the Jewish one, nevermind most Christians have no clue what "Jewish or Israelite" really means. Folks cite scripture which they have read. A few moments of holy ecstasy later, they are informed of what they have read. The requirement of 'study to show yourself approved' and the inherent difference between reading and studying means diddly-squat. Reading the information of my first post and seeing how the change came about and the acknowledgement of Protestants that 'yes, there is a change and it is unauthorized', also means diddly. Going on about your merry way, after it has already been 'splained away, it most certainly has not gone away. The commandment itself tells you when, where, how, and why and for whom.
Exd 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exd 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exd 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exd 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
As valid as ever. Paul's mention of sabbath days (rest days)have nothing to do with this commandment. This understanding comes with study. Christ's contradiction of the Jews of HIS time, has nothing to do with this commandment. All you need to do is 'learn' what they had done with this day, to understand Christ's contradiction. Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath will take on HIS intent.
As for the catholic church? It's good to investigate who they are and what they teach. Not that they will own up to it. See below:
Join in discussion with catholics, and this is what happens:
â€œWe cannot allow that every private Priest or member of the Church of Rome should give his own opinions merely as the standard of doctrine. We will have recourse to the oracular response of the Church, and insist that they be represented by themselves; not, however, by private individuals, but by their legal representatives. But, then, there is nothing which they dread so much as the testimony of their own Church. ... IT IS A PRINCIPAL AIM OF ALL [ROMAN CATHOLIC] CONTROVERTISTS TO EMPLOY EVERY MODE OF EVASION IN ORDER TO DISCONCERT THEIR OPPOSERS. There is even a marked difference between the tone of these Romish Divines who speak dogmatically for the instruction of their own members and that of those who attempt to answer the objections of their antagonists. With the former, all is matter of downright certainty; with the latter, all is doubt, difficulty, subterfuge, and evasion. When the faithful are to be instructed, every Priest becomes the sure depositary of the infallible decisions of an infallible Church; but when Protestants are to be confuted, the declarations of their most illustrious men are of no authority. Councils are discovered to have been but partly approved; Popes did not speak ex cathedra; Cardinals and Bishops are but private Doctors; and who cares for the opinion of an obscure Priest or Friar? Thus nothing is so difficult as to know what the belief of Roman Catholics really is; and WHEN A PROTESTANT ADDUCES THEIR OWN WRITERS AS WITNESSES, HE IS FREQUENTLY (In my experience, he is always) TOLD THAT HE IS A MISREPRESENTER OF THEIR CHURCHâ€ (Charles Elliott, Delineation of Roman Catholicism, London: John Mason, 1851, p. 23).
From the pope:
The Pope Can Change, Add to, or Take Away From, and His Word is Greater than the Holy Scriptures
"We confess that the Pope has power of changing Scripture and of adding to it, and taking from it, according to his will." Roman Catholic Confessions for Protestants Oath, Article XI, (Confessio Romano-Catholica in Hungaria Evangelicis publice praescripta te proposita, editi a Streitwolf), as recorded in Congressional Record of the U.S.A., House Bill 1523, Contested election case of Eugene C. Bonniwell, against Thos. S. Butler, Feb. 15, 1913. http://www.geocities.com/visplace/godsmith20.htm
"We confess that whatever new thing the Pope ordains, rather it be in Scriptures or not in Scripture, and whatever he commands is true, divine and salvific; and therefore ought to be held by Lay People in greater esteem than the living God." Roman Catholic Confessions for Protestants Oath, Article IV, (Confessio Romano-Catholica in Hungaria Evangelicis publice praescripta te proposita, editi a Streitwolf), as recorded in Congressional Record of the U.S.A., House Bill 1523, Contested election case of Eugene C. Bonniwell, against Thos. S. Butler, Feb. 15, 1913. http://www.geocities.com/visplace/godsmith20.htm
From the Bible:
Deuteronomy 4 Hear now, O Israel, the decrees and laws I am about to teach you. Follow them so that you may live and may go in and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you. 2 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.
Deuteronomy 12: 32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.
Proverbs 30: 6 Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Matt 15:6 Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: 8 â€â€˜These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.â€™â€
1 Cor 4:6 (NIV) Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written."
Rev 20: 18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
These Scriptures speak very, very clearly. How is it, that so many "Christians" just disregard it, explain it away? Hasn't gone away, will not go away.
â€œThe Popeâ€™s authority is unlimited, incalculable; it can strike, as Innocent III says, wherever sin is; it can punish every one; it allows no appeal and is itself Sovereign Caprice; for the Pope carries, according to the expression of Boniface VIII, all rights in the Shrine of his breast. As he has now become infallible, he can by the use of the little word, 'orbi,' (which means that he turns himself round to the whole Church) make every rule, every doctrine, every demand, into a certain and incontestable article of Faith. No right can stand against him, no personal or corporate liberty; or as the Canonists put it -- 'The tribunal of God and of the pope is one and the same.'â€ Ignaz von Dollinger, in â€œA Letter Addressed to the Archbishop of Munichâ€, 1871 (quoted in The Acton Newman Relations (Fordham University Press), by MacDougall, p 119-120).
Yet others know that it is not one day at all but rather everyday.
Thats how I look at it. When one is sabbathing, one is resting from the competitive world we live in.
Every day is perfect for worship and should be done every day, compelled by the love we feel for the ONE we love.
One day, the seventh, is set aside for something additional. Look at it closely. Is there a doubt?
Exd 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exd 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exd 20:10 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:
Exd 20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
On the Sabbath meaning seven or rest, you're right. I had read a definition from the New Testament once that said it means seven days or a week, which is indeed what Strong's says in its Greek section. I didn't realized they would say that and not refer back to the Hebrew which is from a root word meaning cease, desist, or rest.
Ok, on to the other stuff.
I'm not Catholic, and I didn't get my doctrines from the Catholics, so all the Catholic stuff is irrelevant.
It is so enjoyable how folks explain it away and away and away.
Explanation is a fact of life that everyone has to do, especially those who would continue keeping a Sabbath rest day when from the beginning the Gentile Christians did not. We have two choices, we can explain why the early Christians did not feel compelled to keep the Sabbath, which would at least be honest, or we can dishonestly pretend like they did keep it and try to explain away Paul's statement that it was merely a shadow and that Christ had blotted out the handwriting of ordinances which was against us.
I am only explaining. The Sabbath is a Jewish law. That's true, and I'm not going to explain it away. The Pope did re-establish Sabbath keeping long after Christianity had married itself to the world government. That's true, and I'm not going to explain it way. He did change it to Sunday at the time. That's true, and I'm not going to explain it away.
In between, from the time of Paul until the Pope reinstated Sabbath keeping, the church, at least the Gentiles in it, did not keep the Sabbath. I am simply explaining why.
Sabbath keepers, on the other hand, have to pretend like the early church did keep the Sabbath. Entire books are published attempting to rewrite history. Obscure quotes are pulled out of context in order to deceive the ignorant in those books. The early church did not keep the Sabbath, that's true, and I won't explain it away, but Sabbath keepers do it all the time.
Sabbath keepers also have to explain away Colossians 2, trying to make it say something it doesn't.
Explaining away is deceitful. Explaining, which is not deceitful, but simply gives the reasons for what is true, is a necessary part of all of life, including religion. I am not doing any explaining away.
God has requirements of Jews but not of Christians
God has requirements of Christians. "He that says, 'I know him,' and does not keep his commandments, is a liar and the truth is not in him."
The commandments apply to all, but not the Jewish one
The early church did not single out the Sabbath command. They applied Christ's principle of expansion or bringing to fullness to all the commands, including the ones about murder and adultery. The Jews kept one day, because they were God's fleshly nation. More is required of Christians. They are to keep every day holy, sanctifying it by their lives.
All the commands are similarly expanded. They are not just to avoid murder, but even being angry with their brother. They are not just to avoid adultery, but even lustful looking.
Hebrews 8 tells about the NT covenant, and why a new one was necessary. note v.8: The fault was with the people, not His laws. V. 10 says God will write His laws (10 Co) into our heart and mind, not do away with them.
Jesus and His apostles kept the 7th day Sabbath. Luke 13:10. Acts 13:,27, 42-44; 15:21; 17:2; 18:4.
And so did the Gentile converts: Acts 13: 42-44; 17:2; 18:4. If the Sabbath was no longer in effect why didn't Paul tell these Gentile converts that there was no Need to wait until the next Sabbath me, he could preach to them the following day--Sunday.
Good day, candle and welcome to EvC. what is your interests regarding the topics we discuss here? Do you have any science questions or opinions regarding your personal faith and belief that you would care to discuss? We can start here in this dead topic....launch a post and start a discussion.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity. In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile