Free will vs Omniscience

The meaning of Isaiah 7 is given in the New Testament.We should get back to the topic.

The meaning of Isaiah 7 is given in the New Testament.

Study Guide for Isaiah 7 by David Guzik

The problem is that you say so many bizarre things that have nothing to do with the gospel as if they do, so there's really no evidence that you ever really were a believer.

If you read the link you will find all that dealt with. But the point of Isaiah 7 to a Christian is what the New Testament says about it, which I've quoted above.This is my last post to you. You are aggressively off topic. End of subject.

I really don't want to get into this discussion at all but when you bring me up I feel obliged to say something. Comparing my views to jar's in any way whatever is extremely misleading. We have NOTHING in common in our views of Christianity.I've never said it's "all about" individual salvation, although that is the rock bottom essential, where it all starts, and YOU make the huge mistake of thinking it's possible to be a Christian without that foundation, without being saved, without the new birth, without being transformed by the Holy Spirit. As you go on to say, "Jesus taught that as individuals we are made right with God by having loving hearts...." This is how you usually put it, saying nothing about HOW we can have loving hearts, as if we could just decide to have loving hearts, which is YOUR huge mistake. If we aren't born again, if we have not received the Holy Spirit, if we have not been supernaturally transformed, we simply cannot have changed hearts because that is a supernatural gift from God.Simply deciding to try to act lovingly is self-delusion. Salvation is a supernatural gift from God, a changed heart is a supernatural gift from God. But you cannot receive that supernatural gift unless you believe rightly: that Jesus Himself is God incarnate, for instance, that He died in our place to pay for our sins, for instance.As for personal salvation being all that I believe, that's really not true, it's merely foundational which is why I emphasize it with those who obviously deny it as you do and jar does. What Jesus did begins with saving us individually, but it's all part of the plan of redemption for the entire Creation. He came to set the entire Creation right, as it was all warped at the Fall, all subjected to death. At the Fall we lost our spiritual relationship with God, and that has to be supernaturally restored to us before we can have changed hearts which is where the redemption of the Creation has to begin.Jar doesn't believe in the Fall, and I don't recall you ever affirming it either. It's the reason we need to be saved. Salvation is the restoration of human beings to our pre-Fall condition, or even better than that since unlike Adam we will never be able to sin again when God's Kingdom has come in all its power. But this is just the first and most important part of the plan to redeem the entire Creation that came under the curse at the Fall. Scripture says "the whole Creation groans" for the final revelation of the salvation of it all, the "revealing of the Sons of God" when everything will be redeemed from the curse brought about by human disobedience of God.Are you a Son of God, GDR? You deny so much of the truth I don't see how you can be. It takes a supernatural transformation but you seem to have nothing but your own philosophical persuasion of some of the truths of Christianity, and as you say about jar, not even the most essential ones either.But isn't this all off the topic of God's foreknowledge and human free will?Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

It might be instructive to know what jar thinks the Nicene Creed is actually saying since he claims to affirm it.

Yes, but others reading your post may not and then get a misleading impression. Which is more like your view than like mine wouldn't you say? But that is a HUGE difference, GDR. It's central to Christian faith that believing in Christ's death for us is what brings Pentecost to us, or the gift of the Holy Spirit who changes us by indwelling us. If you don't believe in Christ's death for our salvation you will not receive the Holy Spirit for living the Christian life. God doesn't just change hearts randomly or in response to our efforts to be good, it's all part of salvation through the sacrifice of Christ. I agree that all mankind retains conscience which is the evidence of all humanity's having the image of God, but it is distorted due to the Fall so that it's rare for the conscience of any two people to agree. Even after salvation the conscience has to grow. But the change of heart that makes a person a Christian is a supernatural "quickening" or bringing-to-life of the spirit that died at the Fall, much more than conscience. We are indeed saved for a purpose: First to grow in grace in this life to become more like Jesus, growing in our ability to do good as He did, and then ultimately to govern the new Creation when the Kingdom of God has fully come. But being born again precedes anything we can do toward following Jesus. This is essential to Christianity. WE can do nothing, as Jesus Himself tells us, "You can do nothing without Me" and "with God all things are possible." But nothing is possible on the level of God's purposes done merely by our own efforts. it all comes from Him. Nobody can do good by God's lights in our fallen flesh, if we are not supernaturally changed we are not His. Some degree of Hell is where we are all destined to go if we are not saved, because of the sin that infects us since the Fall. The spirit that died at the Fall has to be quickened for us to be saved; the Fall has to be reversed before we can avoid Hell, and that's what Jesus did by taking our sins into His own body and dying in our place. Nobody is saved from Hell who does not believe this-- it's by faith that we are able to enter into this reality. Nevertheless even fallen people who live by God's Law within them will no doubt receive mercy, it's just that scripture is not clear what form that will take.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : correct punctuation

Oh but it is, Phat! "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling" the scripture tells us. "Do not fail to do good works" is another scriptural admonition, can't remember the exact wording. We are exhorted time and time again in scripture to live our lives rightly. "Stir up the gift that is within you" is another. Which IS maintaining our salvation. And I agree that you do a better job of that than I often do. Quite true, but if you don't start from salvation any such efforts are done in the flesh and amount to nothing but self delusion.

I would like to know what he thinks it means. Just citing it and quoting it doesn't tell me that. Jar manages to get his own peculiar meanings out of the Bible, which he aggressively insists are THE only meanings possible, and I'd just like to know if he gets the same thing I get out of the Nicene Creed.

It might help to have some biblical theology on the subject. The doctrine of election hits all of us as unfair, It's hard to understand why some and not others. There is really only one criterion given in scripture and that is that He chooses the least deserving, the least interesting, the least influential so that the chosen will clearly be His own work and not the work of human achievement. It's not an ironclad rule, there are exceptions, and in any case perhaps you qualify. Simply being human isn't the qualification, however, or all would be saved. There's no doubt, however, that if you truly wanted to believe, wanted sincerely and humbly to belong to the corps of the foolish, weak and base, truly and sincerely desire to love God above all else and give up all your complaints against Him, you'd be saved too. You could pray for that perspective if you really want it. On that level it really is your own choice. Plenty of Hindus and Muslims have become Christians. They don't stay Hindus and Muslims of course, they convert to Christ. On the one hand, no, we want the good and deserving to be saved, that's what seems fair, not the foolish and base. But the fact is that nobody qualifies on that ground anyway. You say because He appears not to have chosen you that you are now going to hell, but that's not biblical. It really ISN'T "through no fault of your own" if you go to hell. Biblically we're ALL going to hell on our own merits, and any who are saved are saved completely by God's merciful choice. It makes for gratitude. If you admit you're a rotten sinner, knowing you deserve nothing at all from God, and beg Him to save you out of sheer mercy, I have no doubt you'd be saved. Keep on complaining that He's unfair and immoral, on the other hand, and you justify His rejection of you. Oh well, I'm sure I failed your test here. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This is how the doctrine of election gets terrifically misused. It never invalidates our own decisions, it is more like the overarching background against which we make our decisions. YOU made that decision and are blaming it on God. It's a mistake to treat God's sovereign will as on the same level as our own wills but that's what you are doing.There's plenty of scripture that says it's our own decisions that we will be judged by and gives lots of reassurance of God's goodwill towards us. "A bruised reed He will not break," etc., "a contrite heart He will not despise." and A bruised reed doesn't shake its fist at God. nor a contrite heart. Meekness is the opposite of accusing God, and the brokenhearted don't rail against Him. Do you mourn your own sins, do you mourn the sinfulness of the world? These are the attitudes of the saved. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

It CAN happen in this order, but it's also true that people have experiences of a false God they mistake for the true God and only the Biblical revelation can show the difference. Satan spends all his time counterfeiting God, even giving various supernatural shows and "miracles" and so on, and people have fallen for the counterfeits ever since Eden. God gave us the Bible to keep us from falling for all that. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

You miss the whole point of course, as unbelievers must. The point is that whatever we do by our own natural inclination is the same thing as God's doing it in us. Because He is the one "in whom we live and move and have our being." We cannot contradict God and God cannot contradict us because all our power to do anything at all comes directly from Him. I know it's hard to wrap your mind around but that's why you and other unbelievers have such a terrible time understanding Calvinism. Now you are going to think of all the pedantic nitpicky ways this seems wrong to you and just get me tearing my hair out.

Yup, here we go.