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Author Topic:   Being offended.
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 188 of 444 (845886)
12-21-2018 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Stile
12-21-2018 2:15 PM


Re: Respectful Offense
I'm coming into the middle of a conversation that I haven't been following and so may be completely out of context, but anyway:
Stile writes:
Huh... I tried to look it up on my own and it is a very subtle concept (if what I was looking at is even accurate):
Positive/Negative Reinforcement and Positive/Negative Punishment
This positive/negative punishment thing seems like nonsense to me, with no difference between them except in the approach taken to describing them. One example of positive punishment is "A child touches a hot stove (behavior) and feels pain (aversive stimulus)," but it could as easily be described as "A child touches a hot stove (behavior) and no longer has a pain-free finger (reinforcing stimulus removed)."
In the same way, one example of negative punishment is "A child kicks a peer (behavior), and is removed from his/her favorite activity (reinforcing stimulus removed)," but it could as easily be described as "A child kicks a peer (behavior), and is made to sit and watch other children have fun (aversive stimulus)."
Every few years new fads arise how best to raise children. They deserve as much attention as horoscopes. A long while back there was a book called All I Really Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarten. The main point I took from it is that most of the answers to life's problems are based on simple principles we're already very familiar with.
Apologies if I'm out of context, just ignore.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Stile, posted 12-21-2018 2:15 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by riVeRraT, posted 12-22-2018 3:32 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 246 of 444 (846575)
01-09-2019 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by DrJones*
01-08-2019 4:28 PM


Re: No one?
DrJones* writes:
The Jewish community of Philadelphia would disagree with you.
Pittsburgh?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by DrJones*, posted 01-08-2019 4:28 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by DrJones*, posted 01-09-2019 12:02 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(4)
Message 249 of 444 (846579)
01-09-2019 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Faith
01-08-2019 5:45 PM


Faith writes:
And yes, research IS too hard for me.
Quite obviously. Why should anyone pay attention to anything you say?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Faith, posted 01-08-2019 5:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Faith, posted 01-09-2019 10:35 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 264 of 444 (846597)
01-09-2019 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by Faith
01-09-2019 10:35 AM


Faith writes:
Percy writes:
Faith writes:
AZPaul3 writes:
Faith writes:
There is no such violence by the right wing and if you've offered any evidence it's behind a link and I'm not going there. Quote it. Not generalities, specifics.
...
But, you are well able to do your own research.
And yes, research IS too hard for me.
Quite obviously. Why should anyone pay attention to anything you say?
I don't know, Percy, if you don't want to pay attention, don't. I won't miss your input.
You've missed the point and lost track of the discussion, which I've reconstructed above. You claim there's no violence by the right wing and declared that you weren't going to follow a link. AZPaul3 responded by saying that you're well able to do your own research. You replied, "Research IS too hard for me." If you're unable to find evidence for your views (the absence of right wing violence), why should anyone pay attention to anything you say?
But the topic here is doing research for my opposition, not for my own points.
You're just making up excuses. No one is asking you to do their research for them, but you do have to provide support for your own points, namely that there's no right wing violence. You're instead constructing excuses for why you're unable to provide any support for your claims.
I can only guess what link you're referring to since you quote nothing and didn't even reply to anyone specifically in your Message 224, but if it was 3 more Proud Boys members arrested for violent NYC brawl from Ramoss's Message 222 then here's an excerpt:
quote:
NEW YORK Three more members of the far-right group known as the Proud Boys were arrested and charged on Monday, more than a week after a violent brawl on the streets of Manhattan. The New York Police Department had already arrested two other Proud Boy members in connection to the melee.
...
...charges of riot and assault...A third man...has been charged with gang assault, assault, riot and criminal possession of a weapon.
Gee, riot, assault, possession of a weapon. This right wing group sounds pretty violent.
I hope everyone in the discussion objects to violence as a means of achieving political objectives.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Faith, posted 01-09-2019 10:35 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by AZPaul3, posted 01-09-2019 12:34 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 270 by Faith, posted 01-09-2019 4:28 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 295 of 444 (846651)
01-09-2019 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by Faith
01-09-2019 4:28 PM


Faith writes:
Percy writes:
Faith writes:
And yes, research IS too hard for me.
Quite obviously. Why should anyone pay attention to anything you say?
As I said, if you don't want to pay attention I won't miss you.
Are you really this dense? Let me put it another way. How do you expect to have any credibility if you can't support anything you say? If research is too hard for you then you shouldn't be here, but it does explain why you've been unable to bring any facts to the discussion. And I see you're back in "insulting hypocritical one-liner" mode again.
Your claim that there is "no such violence by the right wing" has been rebutted nine ways from Sunday, and obviously since you say you'd "get more out of busting a Leftist's nose" than a Nazi's you're a violent right-winger yourself.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Faith, posted 01-09-2019 4:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 9:17 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 296 of 444 (846652)
01-09-2019 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by Faith
01-09-2019 4:27 PM


Faith writes:
I could punch a Nazi too, but these days I'd get more out of busting a Leftist's nose. Unfortunately I'd just break my hand, but even that might be satisfying enough.
After the 1988 presidential election where Democrat Michael Dukakis lost to Republican George Herbert Walker Bush, conservative columnist George Will wrote:
quote:
How many times does the electorate have to hit the Democratic Party across the bridge of the nose with a crowbar before the party gets the point? Remarkable beast, that party. Its nose wears out crowbars.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Faith, posted 01-09-2019 4:27 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 311 of 444 (846741)
01-11-2019 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 301 by Faith
01-10-2019 9:17 AM


Faith writes:
Credibility with you isn't high on my list of priorities.
Credibility just plain isn't on your priority list, not with me or anybody. Just click on your Faith Posts Only link and examine your pathetic recent posts. Taken together they are remarkably fact free, error ridden, and insult laden.
Your claim that there is "no such violence by the right wing" has been rebutted nine ways from Sunday, and obviously since you say you'd "get more out of busting a Leftist's nose" than a Nazi's you're a violent right-winger yourself.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 9:17 AM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 312 of 444 (846742)
01-11-2019 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 307 by Faith
01-10-2019 8:32 PM


Faith writes:
I trust the inescapable Leftist media to keep me informed of their lies. It's pretty reliable on that score most of the time.
Yet every time you've been asked to back up this claim of lies in the mainstream media you've come up empty. Why should anyone believe you, anymore than they should believe Trump's claims about the border.
But again THERE IS NO RIGHT WING ACTION AT ALL COMPARABLE TO ANTIFA OR ANY OF THE UNPROVOKED ATTACKS ON MERE TRUMP SUPPORTERS MINDING THEIR OWN BUSINESS SINCE HE WAS ELECTED. Dragging people out of their cars to beat them up, beating up people attending lectures on university campuses, assaulting people in the streets, making a ruckus and banging on the door of a right wing talk show host (Tucker Carlson.)
I don't think anyone here is endorsing Antifa tactics, and if anyone is then I think all here should oppose their views. But no Antifa action can compare to Charlottesville. When the right wing resorted to murder, mayhem, mauling, maiming, mangling, mutilation, crippling and disfigurement they kind of raised the bar. No left wing violence has been able to come close.
ORDINARY PEOPLE BEING ATTACKED MERELY FOR VOTING FOR TRUMP.
You give no reference, but for the record I hope I speak for everyone here in decrying violence against people for their political views.
I'm tired of pointing out these things only to get answered by a barrage of irrelevant counter accusations that don't even acknowledge what I said.
You've said very little that is fact based. Don't take my word for it - read your own messages.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Fix grammar, last para.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 8:32 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by Faith, posted 01-11-2019 8:35 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 313 of 444 (846744)
01-11-2019 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 310 by Faith
01-11-2019 12:03 AM


Re: Troll
Faith writes:
Oh it's not for lacking Leftist input that I embrace the Right, that's for sure. There's no avoiding the Left, it's been giving me ulcers for decades now with its Cultural Marxist Political Correctness that is utterly destroying America and everything good. It is so demonically horrific I often can't bear to hear any of the current news.
What you're calling "Cultural Marxist Political Correctness" is actually compassion and caring. I'm talking about those, regardless of political affiliation or lack thereof, who oppose family separation, who have compassion for those trying to escape abuse, violence and extreme poverty, who want fair treatment for those brought to America as young children, who want adequate medical care universally available, and who want people judged by the content of their character and not by the color of their skin or their gender identification.
I'm certainly no troll, thanks for that much.
You've become increasingly a troll over the past couple years.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by Faith, posted 01-11-2019 12:03 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by Faith, posted 01-11-2019 8:46 AM Percy has replied
 Message 316 by Faith, posted 01-11-2019 8:53 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 322 of 444 (846767)
01-11-2019 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by Faith
01-11-2019 8:35 AM


Faith writes:
Oh what evasion.
Yes, exactly. What evasion?
Antifa should be soundly denounced and put in prison...
I think law enforcement is up to the task when anyone commits any crimes, including Antifa members, Proud Boy members, etc.
...and "not endorsing their tactics" is meaningless,...
Then you have a poor understanding of the English language, or also possible, the lying conservative media has pumped you into a mindless rage that hinders your ability to think coherently.
...and just trotting out irrelevant right wing violence in response is basically denial.
Why is right wing murder and violence against those they disagree with politically irrelevant?
Stop depending on the usual media outlets, it's corrupt Leftism that's poisoning your mind.
First, I get my news from a variety of sources. See, for example, my recent Message 433 about an article from Fox News, and my recent Message 2693 about an article from the conservative Washington Examiner. If anyone's mind has been poisoned and inflamed it is yours, as is clear from the hatred and vitriol in your rhetoric.
Second, to convince people you must offer evidence. The only evidence you're providing so far is that you're very good at spewing hatred and vitriol.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Faith, posted 01-11-2019 8:35 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by Faith, posted 01-11-2019 2:43 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 326 of 444 (846783)
01-11-2019 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by Faith
01-11-2019 8:46 AM


Re: PC dupes are destroying America
Faith writes:
\What a Bleeding Heart Leftist dupe you are.
As I've told you many times, Faith, I am not a leftist. I'm an independent. I've voted for people from both parties. But there's nothing illegitimate about honest political views, whether of the left or the right, though your particular right-wing views are not legitimate because they're based upon lies, misunderstandings, fear and hate.
And caring about people does not make one a bleeding heart dupe. It makes one a human being.
No it is not compassion, it's an imposition on American citizens who should not have to take care of people who are in our country illegally,...
You are wrong. We provide little care for illegal immigrants. In general illegal immigrants are not eligible for assistance programs. Even most legal permanent residents aren't eligible. The attraction of America is safety and work, so most illegals work and don't need government assistance, not that they could get it anyway.
...and they wouldn't be here except for the refusal to take effective measures to keep them out because the Left wants them here to overrun the country and in fact destroy it so they can have political power.
You are wrong again. Most illegal immigrants enter legally and then overstay their visas. A much lesser number arrive via illegal border crossings.
There are Leftist organizations that ENCOURAGE these people to come here and become dependent on Americans who cannot afford the burden and shouldn't have to.
You were already wrong about this, see above about illegal immigrants not being eligible for most assistance programs.
And escaping abuse is NOT the motive,...
You are wrong yet again. The reasons most often given on asylum applications are abuse and persecution.
...they get more abused on their hard journey here than in their home nations,...
The journey is fraught with danger, so what is one to do? Endure the abuse at home, or flee north and risk abuse on the journey?
...and extreme poverty has never been a reason for us to accept immigrants, what a ridiculous idea.
Nobody said poverty was a valid reason on asylum applications. What was said is that poverty is one reason why people want to come to the United States, the land of opportunity.
People who come here should be minimally able to support themselves.
Since illegal immigrants are willing to take jobs many Americans don't want, such as cleaning houses, landscaping, fruit picking and so forth, once here and embedded in an ethnic community they usually have little trouble supporting themselves.
What about AMERICAN POOR PEOPLE?
Unlike illegal immigrants, the poor qualify for most assistance programs, though I don't believe we're doing enough to help the poor, especially those in economically depressed regions. Making sure adequate healthcare is available to all the poor would be a good improvement.
There should be more than enough jobs for those able to work because there are more job openings at present than there are unemployed, though these job openings are not evenly distributed, I refer you back to the aforementioned economically depressed regions.
There are plenty of those and they don't get half the benefits these noncitizens get because of Leftist political corruption.
You are wrong yet again. How, exactly, are you imagining that illegal immigrants qualify for assistance, especially without calling themselves to the attention of the immigration service.
And of course you pull the bogus PC racist card,...
If you don't want racism mentioned then stop acting like a racist. I also mentioned the LGBT issue.
...what a useful idiot you are. WAKE UP.
Once again you have managed to write an entire message without saying almost anything true.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Faith, posted 01-11-2019 8:46 AM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 328 of 444 (846788)
01-11-2019 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by Faith
01-11-2019 9:41 AM


Faith writes:
JonF writes:
Charlottesville murder.
Thanks for confirming that you can't name a single antifa incident that meets your criteria, and you can't even acknowledge the right wing murderer at Charlottesville.
I named many...
I must have missed the post where named many Antifa incidents. I see a couple vague, unspecific and unreferenced mentions in your Message 240, but that's it. In any case, no one is endorsing Antifa. You can criticize Antifa all you like and we'll be right there with you. It's your claim that there's no corresponding right-wing violence that we're asking you to support, even though we've reminded you about the Proud Boys and Charlottesville.
...and I don't believe the Charlottesville incident was premeditated.
And you would be wrong yet again. James Fields was convicted of first degree murder, for which premeditation is required.
In any case they weren't there for violence, as Antifa always is.
There you go with the pronouns again. "They" meaning who? The Unite the Right protesters? A number were in attendance with the intention of instigating violence. See, for example, The alt-right is going on trial in Charlottesville. The Sines v. Kessler lawsuit charging the Unite the Right organizers with intentionally inciting violence is still wending its way through the courts, see the docket history to get a rough idea of current status.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by Faith, posted 01-11-2019 9:41 AM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 329 of 444 (846790)
01-11-2019 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by Faith
01-11-2019 2:43 PM


Faith writes:
I do hate Leftist ideology and propaganda with a purple passion for its virulent destructive hatred of everything good.
But you see compassion for your fellow human beings as "virulent destructive hatred." Your views are irrational and unsupported by evidence. You've fallen hook, line and sinker for the right-wing media's campaign of lies and hate.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Faith, posted 01-11-2019 2:43 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by Faith, posted 01-11-2019 6:55 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 336 of 444 (846825)
01-12-2019 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 330 by Faith
01-11-2019 6:55 PM


Faith writes:
No, I see bogus counterfeit fake phony trumped-up CLAIMS of compassion that are not real but are just used to smear conservative concerns about the actual realities of the situation.
You're calling the concern people express for human suffering phony because you experience no such feelings yourself and because you have no actual defense for Trump's deplorable policies. You have no knowledge of "the actual realities of the situation." Everything you say is stuff made up by the lying right-wing media.
The Left couldn't care less about these people, it's all politics with them.
I hope everyone of all political persuasions sincerely cares about the plight of those fleeing abuse and persecution.
If the people weren't encouraged to come here by Leftist liars, if we had a real barrier and a real system for dealing with the problem, they WOULDN'T come here and therefore they wouldn't be exposed to the dangers that call for compassion.
Repetition of false information won't make it true. Most illegal immigrants have overstayed their visas, not committed illegal border crossings.
I don't "fall for" any of this, I'm not an irrational sucker like you are.
You pretty much are an "irrational sucker." That you swallow whole the lies told to you is why your posts rarely contain anything that is actually true. What they mostly contain is hate and disparagement and disgust.
Perhaps you could volunteer to take in a family from say Guatemala who speak no English, at best one of them has a fifth grade education, they have a tubercular baby and all the kids have the H1N1 flu and various parasites and infections and the father has a criminal record in his own country, they are starving and need to be completely dependent on your support.
This is what your right-wing masters have brainwashed you to believe.
And they would represent probably a majority of people in their country who aren't going to get your compassion unless you want us to bring all of them to you as well as well as the miserable poor of all the other nations in the world.
The United States should be a beacon of hope to the oppressed of the world.
Why do you hate Americans so much you want to do this to us?
Helping those less fortunate than ourselves enriches us.
Why do the Leftists hate this country that much? Why don't you all spend your time trying to do something about the miserable conditions they come from instead of burdening us with them? Yes, this is indeed virulent hatred of everything reasonable and good. Leftism is pure evil.
I think right-wing propaganda has knocked your mind all akilter.
And yes you are a Leftist.
Why do you think concern for others is a quality exclusive to those on the left?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by Faith, posted 01-11-2019 6:55 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 337 of 444 (846832)
01-12-2019 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 332 by Faith
01-11-2019 7:30 PM


Faith writes:
No, lots of these people arrive sick,...
You've been listening to the propaganda of your right-wing handlers again.
...and it's irrelevant how many are criminals,...
No, of course it's not irrelevant. No one wants criminals entering the country. And no one is for illegal immigration. Having compassion for the unfortunate is not synonymous with encouraging immigration. But whether it's migrants at legal points of entry or illegal immigrants apprehended on the US side of the border, they're all allowed to request asylum.
...there are thousands of murders of Americans by illegals,...
Who made this one up for you? There are only about 17,000 murders in the country annually. Are you seriously claiming that a significant percentage of murders are committed by illegal immigrants, who represent only 3% of the population? They must be a very busy group.
...and the gang called MS-13 has committed many murders.
Only about 35 murders per year are attributed to MS-13. (I’ve Been Reporting on MS-13 for a Year. Here Are the 5 Things Trump Gets Most Wrong.)
And Americans will do those jobs if paid enough. Require that they be paid enough;...
So you're advocating raising the minimum wage? I think that's wonderful.
...exploiting the illegals and depriving Americans of jobs is corruption that needs to go.
There are already more job openings than people to fill them.
Aid to Central America goes to the corrupt governments and doesn't get to the people anyway.
You're right, corrupt governments are a genuine problem that makes improving the quality of life for their citizens very difficult for foreign countries. I doubt there are any easy answers.
WHAT iS WRONG WITH REQUIRING PEOPLE WHO WANT TO COME HERE TO MEET OUR STANDARDS AND DO IT RIGHT? WHAT'S WITH YOU CRAZY LAWLESS LEFTISTS?
What is wrong with having both compassion and respect for the law at the same time? A mother with a listless and unresponsive baby presents at the Tijuana border crossing where migrants are supposed to wait in Mexico until it's their turn to apply for asylum. What to do? Turn her away and possibly let the baby die? Or let her in to begin the asylum process on humanitarian grounds and give the baby immediate medical attention? The answer is obvious, you let her in, and such humanitarian action is embodied in American law, statute 212(d)(5)(A) of the Immigration and Nationality Act.
ABE: Oh, and "asylum seekers" is a big fraud. They are coming here for work and the usual opportunities they don't have at home as they always have.
There are treaties establishing the rights of asylum seekers, and the US is signatory. There is a formal process for reviewing applications for asylum. I couldn't find exact figures, but it looks like it averages around 50% of applications granted each year. In actual numbers it seems to average around 23,000.
The great majority are young men, the women and children get pushed in front of the cameras but it's the young men as usual who are coming for jobs.
As I've been saying, we have more jobs than people to fill them, and immigrants are willing to accept jobs Americans don't want. If they work on the books then they pay taxes, and they can't take advantage of any assistance services.
It's too bad their countries are so corrupt and don't care about their own people.
Yes, that's too bad. We should try to help, assuming we can figure effective approaches that are truly helpful.
Too bad they are ruled by bosses who want to keep their power and deprive the people.
You mean like Wisconsin?
THAT's the problem. The US does take care of the people which is why everybody wants to come here. The US also does a LOT for the poor of the rest of the world, but there's a limit for pete's sake.
Well, yes, of course there are limits, but that doesn't mean we don't have compassion. That doesn't mean we try to make the unfortunate even less fortunate. We have a humanitarian crisis deep in Central America, and the effects extend all the way north to our southern border. This is such a severe and significant problem that it has caused a political stalemate resulting in closure of a third of our government. Turning our back on migrants is not the solution.
The US should work toward making the rest of the western hemisphere as desirable a place to live as the US - that's how we'll really solve the illegal immigration problem.
One more thing you might think about as you collect your monthly Social Security check. Social Security is expected to be solvent until somewhere around 2032, at which point benefits will be reduced. This is because the US is suffering a demographic problem where, as the Baby Boom generation hits retirement age, fewer and fewer workers must pay for more and more retirees. The fertility rate continues to drop, so there's no solution there. But an influx of young immigrants, both individuals and families, would help Social Security a great deal.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by Faith, posted 01-11-2019 7:30 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by Faith, posted 01-12-2019 3:07 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 341 by Faith, posted 01-12-2019 3:29 PM Percy has replied

  
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