Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith

The problem, as I see it, is that one is following a trail of math and physics to arrive at the farthest regression that we can measure. Granted we know with reasonable certainty that math and physics work and they work very well for what they show us. Keep in mind, however, that you are attempting to provide evidence for a time long before humanity was even around. Thus the source of confirmation, our minds, and reasoning, did not even exist at the time described by the math. Apologists often say that one reason that humans don't like thinking/imagining an infinite eternal God is partially because they have no way to put such a concept in a box, or problem, or theory. God cannot be quantified nor understood...nay not even measured. based on this simple math logic, God is not proven to exist. The maths provide us assurance as well as evidence. They allow us to feel certain of our calculations...een though we are calculating a reality that predated our minds. Of course, time is finite. Anything that can be quantified takes time to quantify. Without time, there could be no proof...for no individual, computer, or thesis could even be compiled. In conclusion, I would say that at best, evidenced points of regression are comforting, whereas eternal, abstract, unquantifiable points give humans an uneasy feeling.

In other words, something that exists is something quantifiable or measurable according to your definition. It's like dark matter. They had to quantify it somehow before they could say that it existed. Which is why logicians often are atheists. God as a concept is unquantifiable. I always thought that defining the regression as an uncaused first cause eliminated the need to ask what came before. And its sorta silly for humans, existing so late on the scale, to attempt to quantify infinity.

It figures that you would say and believe this. You deify human wisdom. You act as if we are better candidates for being creators than God is.Dont you see the error in this thinking process? It gives weight to the scripture (from the snake, mind you) that says we shall be as gods. Of course you will have a clever rebuttal...but it seems evident to me that you place human wisdom on a higher plane than any God you could imagine. Furthermore, you even seek to establish the terms of such a God...as if God works for humanity. you say If God can prevent evil or stop it, it is His duty. You forget that He establishes the parameters of His involvement and responsibility. You are, of course, free to reject such a God. My point is that you won't ever humble yourself to seek to understand Him. You keep attempting to define the terms of the contract.

My argument (today, anyway ) is that belief is useful to humanity. Even if humans collectively and consensually decided that it all was made-up, they would still do well to believe in something and someone greater than humanity is currently capable of being. It's like Voltaire said: If God did not exist, it would be necessary to make one up. You said it better elsewhere. I'm not ready to trash the book. You do have a point that our relationship is with God in our head...but I would add the heart. You did get me thinking when you stated that I have cognitive dissonance regarding helping people. If God is real and actual (which I have believed for a long while) then maybe (perhaps) He wants there to be no evidence. Perhaps He wants people to have faith....I'm just working out how this can be beneficial to society rather than your default argument to dump religion globally. My point is that we shouldn't teach future generations not to believe. You seem to think it harms them. I'm arguing that it(belief) does not.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

After reading that quote of Hitchens, I perused his RIP thread that you started and remembered this link you gave me...I watched the entire video. I found it fascinating that they were able to discuss history, philosophy, and human development without once referring to God as a living entity. They were not being smug, however...just matter-of-fact. I found the discussion a bit challenging to follow, as these are very intelligent men.Daniel Dennett is the first on my curiosity list, so I just now (am watching) a 1-hour talk by him titled Daniel Dennett — on our mind, God and other illusions. It is admittedly captivating to listen to him. This is where my inner rebel shines most adamantly and defiantly. 90% of the religious believers whom I know would never entertain such philosophical discussions which present a view of the brain and human consciousness that requires no religious or even spiritual understanding...though at the moment they are discussing autonomous decisions, deterministic behavior vs "free willed" decisions and so on. (35:00 into the video)Another reason that I began watching this stuff is because of your earlier challenge to my arguments saying that I essentially had no clue...no idea how atheists think. Now I'm beginning to get an idea. Edited by Phat, : i watched the video

Logically, the requirements for an atheist and a believer are identical. To one, the source is the mind of Christ Himself, exhorting and encouraging us to change and grow. To the other it is entirely biological and developmental...but the call is the same for both. Ringo taught me this, with his message/messenger argument. I never wanted to admit that he was right...but after watching the Four Horsemen and Dennett videos, I see the logic.

Scientific Arsenal? GDR is our Ambassador Of Unevidenced Beliefs.

Perhaps somewhere along the line someone freely chose it. You cant have free will in a house with all inside and no outside.

My implication was that Heaven is not a democracy. In response to Tangle. You dont really expect Him to allow everyone into heaven and give them the right to ignore Him now do you?

You can see how the dogma developed. The whole idea of a rebellion in heaven was symbolic yet apt. Just look at our current squabbles in government by a two party system. By definition, Gods Spirit would be the ruling faction, shared by all. If Heaven was meant to be a democracy, Lucidfer could have stayed there and been the opposing party! ...but this is all silly and hypothetical.I figured you guys would challenge the autonomy of a Deity. Cant you accept the fact that a Deity would know more about how things must be than any created angels or humans? (The counter-argument would assert that humans created the concept of the deity and could therefore also make up the parameters.)

You guys won this one again! I just had a nap and a dream. I am losing touch with "the truth"! I need to surrender in order to get it back or i will end up lost and bitter like Faith. And whats really humbling is that God is using atheists to correct me!

What you, I, or ringo would do does not measure up to what God may do, may know, and why he would do it. The basis of this argument is in response to a hypothetical question why (I claim) that God would never create a Heaven where people could ignore(or more properly do their own thing) in the confines of such a place. Certain places have certain rules and expectations. People are free to challenge such rules, but the owner or president of such places also has the right to set certain standards.You claim it is a matter of self-esteem. ringo apparently agrees. All that I am suggesting is that the behavior of this satan character would go against the standards established for heaven. Whether God chooses to vaporize him, boot him out the front door, or ignore him is up to God alone. Stile claims that a weak God would lack self-esteem and fear the competition. (im addressing ringo)Then AZPaul3 adds: Thus we are all defining the character of this "God of Heaven".Getting back to the standards....it seems clear that Heaven and free will do not go together. Otherwise, not all of the saints would sing praises for eternity. jar used to joking say that he could imagine no worse hell than a heaven where people did nothing but grovel and sing exultations 24/7!

OK I will describe it again as I remember it. At this time, roughly 1995, I was involved in a charismatic church of believers which had an energetic and exciting time surrounding it. They cast demons from people and I personally witnessed several such performances (sorta like Benny Hinn staged) in the early days after I was saved.(thats another story, but the subjective experience was real to me).I lived alone in a one bedroom apartment in a building of roughly 40 units. One of my friends from church had moved in with me and stayed in the living room area of the apartment. His family has been Holy Rollers for many years. His Mom "saved" him when he was ten... He is similar to you in his belief that Gods reality overrides all science and evidence and secular wisdom. Of course, both of us were witnesses of these deliverances, and of this night it is understood to this day that it actually happened as we thought it had then.Here is how it was described by me in another thread a couple years ago. Feel free to ask me any questions.

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I guess that I will jump in on this one! My motive is not to try and prove or disprove anything, but merely to recount a firsthand experience. About five years ago, I and my friends were active in fellowship and communion with other Christian Believers. We were praying together in agreement, and we were becoming at peace with our relationships to each other, the world in general, and God as we knew Him. One night, I was asleep. My roomie came home with two friends. At 2 a.m. they were praying in the other room. I then heard a commotion and shouting! I observed that an electrical feeling was present in the air and that my hair on my arms was standing on end. I also became very restless and an inner unction to pray was felt.
Afterward, going out to see what the commotion was, I saw one of the guys with deep blood red eyes biting himself and emitting deep growls.
Several explanations came to my mind for why this was happening.
1) Bad acid.
2) Trying to get attention
3) mentally ill. Or...my last explanation? Perhaps supernatural.
Mind you, I was still a skeptic. One of the others spoke to him and said that "we plead the blood of Jesus over you!" Out of this guy came what may have been several different voices at once. There were no tricks. No wires. I am certain of the authenticity of this moment.
These voices cryed out "The Blood! No! No!" Now I know that you all think that I was fooled, and I cannot claim that I wanted to believe that this was true at that time either. I WAS scared! Scared because I felt not in control. Yet I knew that what I heard was a real event and it sounded very otherworldly! Everyone was genuinely shook up. This was one event among several in my life that has caused me to wonder about the supernatural and the possibilities of such as reality.

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It was very unplanned and it did spontaneously occur...at nearly 2 am, IIRC.
Jason ended up going to the army, getting married, not sure where he is at now or if he is a believer. His mental health seemed ok even then, but he himself said that his family had a generational history with the occult. Not sure of the specific details. I do recall him not really knowing what had happened to him...as if he were watching a movie of himself--at the time. We can continue through email or PM here.

No. You failed to connect the dots. You merged several stories together. Its not as black and white as you think. But I get the mental health angle...I studied psychology for 3 years at college. But as I have pointed out before, those of you who demand evidence have ruled out the possibility of anything more. Believers have not...based on subjective experience. So I will say that it *could* be explained, but not that it *must* be explained any differently.