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Author Topic:   Did Jesus Declare All Food Clean?
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 16 of 88 (846731)
01-11-2019 12:32 AM


Mark chapter 7 is not the same as Matthew chapter 15 in an important respect.
The Big difference is in a FEW added words in Mark 7.
(I am going from memory in this Greek words part and am probably a bit off)
KATHARTA PANTA AT BROMATA ("purging/cleansing all meats")
The King James says "Purging all foods" in Mark 7, and it very probably means "CLEANSING all foods".
It is absent in Matthew 15.
Matthew 15 simply has the NOTHING FROM OUTSIDE CAN DEFILE A PERSON (Like Mark 7 also says).
The evangelical Tyndale Commentary (which I cannot quote at this time) says that the NOTHING FROM OUTSIDE could simply be a Semitic construction that does not mean what it sounds like in English.
(EXAMPLE TO ILLUSTRATE: The superlative "bigger" in Semitic is used by saying "Goliath is bigger FROM David" and it means "bigger THAN")
Here is the Steven Mason commentary on Mark 7.
His work is Early Christian Reader.
(The Greek word used in Matthew 15 and Mark 7, which is translated "traditions" in English, is the exact same Greek word Josephus used to describe the ORAL LAW teachings that the Pharisees used, which was a "law" very much opposed by the Saducees/Zadokites who only followed the written LAW OF MOSES or Torah)
quote:
Mason
p.307 ( mark)
7:15-23 This section is only tangentially related to what precedes. There Jesus rejected the Pharisees’ special tradition as a human tradition. Here he is in dialogue with biblical laws, observed by Jews around the Roman world, concerning suitable food; the divine commandments explicitly declare unclean several varieties of bird, seafood, and land animal (Deut. 14:1-21). Jesus’ reported words do not necessarily reject these laws. His formulation there is nothing outside a person that by going in can defile, but the things that come out are what defile is a typically Semitic construction whose approximate meaning is that what comes out of a person is much more important than what goes in. Compare the prophets’ call for mercy, not sacrifice (Hos. 6:6), which was not an appeal to end divinely mandated sacrifice but an insistence that mercy was more urgent and that only sacrifice in conjunction with mercy was acceptable.
.
7:19 he declared all foods clean The author understands Jesus’ statement there is nothing outside thatcan defile in an absolute way, rather than in the relative sense typical of Semitic speechThis is by no means a necessary deduction, and it was not followed my Matthew, which retains Jesus’ words, but drops Mark’s interpretation and also presents Jesus as requiring scrupulous observance of Moses’ laws (15:17-18; see 5:17-21). In the controversies that ensued, as far as we know, no one cited the precedent of Jesus himself. It appears, then, the author of Mark has read back into Jesus’ lifetime the practices of his own Gentile community.
Here is an evangelical commentary.
See some selected notes for Mark 7
quote:
The New American Commentary
Mark
James Brooks
(Broadman Press, 1991)
.
Back flap
interpretation that emphasizes the theological unity of each book and of Scripture as a whole;
Blurb on back flap
basic is the foundational commitment of the authors to the full trustworthiness of Scripture.
-George Brushaber, Executive Editor
Christianity Today
.
SIDE FLAP (DUST COVER)
The New American Commentary assumes the inerrancy of Scripture
....
p.28
7. Date
The tradition that circulated in the early church dated the writing of Mark’s Gospel either shortly before or shortly after Peter’s death in A.D. 64 or 65. Although a large segment of contemporary scholarship disregards the tradition, there is widespread agreement that Mark was written between A.D. 65 and 75. Crucial in the minds of most is the relationship of Mark to the Neronian persecution in Rome during A.D. 64-65 and/or to the Jewish revolt against Rome between A.D. 66 and 70 (actually the last resistance at Masada was not crushed until A.D. 73 or 74). The Gospel mentions neither, but it is difficult to evaluate the significance of this because the remainder of the New Testament is silent also, even though some of the books almost certainly were written after these events.
This commentary regards the allusions to persecutions (e.g. 8:34-38; 10:38-40) as too general for Mark to have been written in Rome after the outbreak of the Neronian persecution, an event that must have dominated the church there for at least a decade after A.D. 64-65. The Gospel reflects apprehension of persecution or other trouble, but it does not reflect a persecution in progress or one in the very recent past. Also, quite apart from any supernatural insight on his part, there is no reason Jesus could not have predicted the persecution of his followers. This commentary does not take chap. 13 to indicate that the Jewish revolt had begun. If these presuppositions are correct, and if Mark was written in Rome as seems most likely, it must have been written shortly before the beginning of the persecution of Nero and therefore in A.D. 63 or the first half of A.D. 64. If in fact Peter had any input, an earlier [p.30] date is not likely because it is improbable that he went to Rome before A.D. 62(he is not mentioned in the Prison Epistles-Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, and Philemon-which probably were written from Rome between A.D. 60 and 62; nor is he mentioned in Paul’s letter to Rome about A.D. 56-57).
.
P.113
[ Mark 7]
Although the major concern of this section is that Jesus rejected the oral interpretation of the written law, something more appears in the third account (vv. 14-23). Jesus seems to have rejected one aspect of the Mosaic law, that of ritual cleanness. The early church struggled with what should be its attitude toward the Mosaic law in general and food laws in particular, and this was a reason for Mark’s treatment of the subject.
Mark probably intended this section on scribal tradition as a transition and as an introduction to Jesus’ ministry to Gentiles beyond the traditional boundaries of Palestine (7:24-8:10). With the stranglehold of Jewish tradition broken, the gospel could go out to all people; and Christianity could become a universal religion.
.
[niv text 7:2 hands that were unclean7:5 eating their food with ‘unclean hands’? ]
.
p.114
7:2 The scribes and Pharisees were not concerned with hygiene but with ritual purity. Mark clarified that by explaining the word unclean for his Gentile readers who were not familiar with Jewish practices. In classical Greek the word translated unclean meant public as opposed to private, and that meaning is found in the LXX (the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament). In 1 Macc 1:47,62, however, it means ritually unclean, and that is certainly the meaning here. In the Old Testament ritual washings were imposed primarily upon the priests (e.g., Exod 30:17-21; 40:12), but apparently by the first century the scribes and Pharisees had begun to practice them and to attempt to impose them on all Jews (cf. v. 3).
p.115
.
The Mishna tractate Yadaim (meaning Hands) deals with ritual washings but does not enlighten the present passage. The interpreter must confess his or her inability to determine the matter. Some factors, however, point to minor defilement, which requires a superficial washing as opposed to major defilement, which requires total immersion (cf. v. 4).
The tradition of the elders is simply the oral, scribal interpretation of the written, Mosaic law. This tradition was later (ca. A.D. 220) collected and reduced to writing in the Mishna. The elders were scribes, Pharisees, leaders of synagogues, and revered persons in general.
.
[ NIV TEXT These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me 7 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’]
7:6-7 The quotation is from Isa 29:13 LXX, which differs slightly from the Hebrew text. The point attributed to Jesus is best made in the Greek rather than the Hebrew version of Isaiah, but it is not absent from the Hebrew text. The basic point of both versions of Isaiah is that external observance is no substitute for inward piety. A more serious problem is whether Jesus the Palestinian Jew would have known and used the Septuagint. Quite frankly the LXX wording of the quotation may be due to Mark rather than Jesus. Jesus no doubt quoted the verse in Aramaic; Mark had to use some translation. As a result of the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, however, it is now known that several [p. 116] different Hebrew texts circulated in first-century Palestine. Jesus may have used the one that earlier had been used as the basis of the LXX rather than the LXX itself.
....
p.117
7:14 The main passages that treat Jewish food laws are Lev 11 and Deut 14:1-21. The early church had difficulty deciding what to do with these laws and other questions about food (Acts 10:1-11:18; 15:1-29; Rom 14; 1 Cor 8:1-11:1; Gal 2:11-14; Col 2:20-23). Mark found in the material available to him some teaching of Jesus about the matter. It is not as clear as the modern reader might think, or it would have settled the question, which obviously it did not. Although the statement in v. 15 is called a
.
p.118
7:18-19 Food merely goes first into the stomach and then into the latrine (so the Greek text; cf. into the drain, NEB, REB and into the sewer, NRSV, which, however, are anachronisms).
.
One Greek manuscript of medium quality has into the bowl.
[earlier on p. 118]
.
The parenthetical statement at the end of v. 19 is Mark’s understanding of the ultimate significance of Jesus’ teaching, not what Jesus said at the time. There is, however, nothing in the Greek text corresponding to the NIV’s insertion In saying this, Jesus declared. It says simply but very awkwardly cleansing all foods, and it is barely possible that the reference is not to the intention of Jesus’ teaching but to food ultimately being disposed of in a latrine, namely, that all foods are equal in the end.
It should be pointed out that the interpretation that the Mark 7 words (using the word Kathar) mean CLEANSING (as opposed to purging) all foods are from the idea that Mark added to the words of Jesus. If scholars actually assumed that the words were the words of Jesus, then the weight would shift toward the REMOVING/PURGING interpretation.
Mark wrote after 60 A.D.
Jesus spoke in the 20s.
Fundamentalist (pork eaters!) Christians don't understand that the scholarly assumption for a CLEANSING translation comes from the idea that "Mark" added words a half a century later. (I can offer examples to back up my point IF people don't think that I have actually read the scholars enough to make such a claim)

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by candle2, posted 01-13-2019 10:14 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 17 of 88 (846733)
01-11-2019 1:05 AM


Old Syriac had a "purging" translation
Here are my zip drive notes. for Mark 7:19
quote:
MARK 7:19
-Willis Barnstone-
Since it doesn’t enter the heart but the stomach
And goes into the sewer, purging all foods.
-Old Syriac-
BECAUSE IT ENTERETH NOT INTO HIS HEART, BUT INTO THE BELLY
AND IS CAST OUT, AND ALL MEAT IS PURGED
NRSV (?) (Robinson, Mason)
SINCE IT ENTERS, NOT INTO THE HEART BUT THE STOMACH,
AND GOES OUT INTO THE SEWER? (THUS HE DECLARED ALL FOODS CLEAN)
RSV
Since it enters, not his heart but his stomach,
And so passes on? b (Thus he declared all foods clean)
b Or is evacuated
-NIV-
For it doesn’t go into his heart but into his stomach,
And then out of his body. (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean)
The Old Syriac translation was an English translation from the 19th century I think.
(The Old Syriac was nothing more than a translation of the standard Greek Matthew, but the significance is in the fact that Semitic idioms were common across the Semitic world, so they had an understanding of what certain sayings meant, even if they were taking a GREEK text back to Semitic)
(The Old Syriac - TRANSLATIONS from Greek - might have had the added advantage of being in AN AREA THAT POSSESSED actual traditions and/or Hebrew/Aramaic texts that are no longer extant, but were present around the early to mid 3rd century A.D.)

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by candle2, posted 01-12-2019 11:29 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 19 of 88 (846871)
01-12-2019 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by candle2
01-12-2019 11:29 AM


Augustine debates Manicheans over the Gospel of Matthew, Romans 14, 1 Corinthians 10
quote:
Some rely on Mark 7:18-19 to support their claim that Christians can now eat
unclean (contaminated, polluted, unhealthy) meat.
However, the issue in Mark 7 isn't about clean/unclean meat, but unwashed
hands.
It should be clear, to everyone with an open mind, that Mark 7 is about the
Purification of food by the body's digestive process, and it's elimination of
minor impurities as the result of unwashed hands.
The Pharisees, like Jesus, ate only clean meat. This was not what they were debating. It was never an issue for them.
This is an old debate. (though the 2 sides centered around different options, but at any rate they are not much debated today)
(I do think that "Mark", or later additions to "Mark" by editors, meant that all food - meat - was allowed to be eaten. The context makes that interpretation pretty certain. It is all CLEAN. Jesus, the man, however was simply opposing certain TRADITIONS about purification. I don't think Jesus ate meat at all - after some point in his life. His brother, James, seems to have been a pre-Christian Nazarene, and they did not eat meat.)
Paul said that the clean/unclean issue isn't the basis for the requirement to totally stop eating meat. See Romans 14.
I say this is an old debate, because we actually have texts that cover arguments from 1600 years ago.
Augustine's untranslated texts (into English) are finally being translated. He responded to a late 3rd/early 4th century Manichean, Adimantus. That was just now translated, and can only be found in one place (nowhere online, but I will quote from it). I believe he also covered these issues against the Manichean Fortunatum or Fortunatus( also difficult to find in English), but I forget.
The debate doesn't really exist today.
But in the early centuries (and to some extent, into the 13th to 14 century with the Cathars 1st millennium boom in Europe), the debate was between the Roman Catholic position (kill and eat anything, any way you can) and the Jewish Christian position (total vegetarianism). I am unaware of any Christian position, in the debates, that allowed (for example) cow meat but did not allow pig meat.
quote:
It
Hand washing for the Pharisees was highly ritualistic, and they attempted to
force their beliefs on Jesus, but He rejected them.
1 Cor 3:16-17 tells us that we are the temple of God, and that God will destroy
those who defile the temple.
Eating unclean meat is no different than smoking or drinking to excess.
Isa 66:15-17 is a prophecy about the 2nd coming of Christ, and at that time
eating swine meat is still an abomination.
Read Rev 18:2 about unclean birds.
When God led Israel out of Egypt, after 430 years in captivity, He had to
reintroduce them to His laws. His laws had existed from the beginning and
Anyone who follows Him must submit to these laws. There is no difference
between Jews and Greeks.
Chapter 65 ends here in verse 25
quote:
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock:
and dust shall be the serpent's meat.
They shall not hurt nor destroy
in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.
Pig meat might not be so different from cow flesh.
See chapter 66.
Verse 3.
quote:
3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man;
he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck;
he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood;
he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol.
Yea, they have chosen their own ways,
and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
There were 2 positions:
The Roman Catholic position (which you seem to roughly identify with when you say "Eating unclean meat is no different than smoking or drinking to excess" though there might be a slight variation in your view)
The early century Jewish Christian position (total vegetarianism as a grave moral issue)
Where to find the Jewish Christian voice from antiquity is very tough. The closest (only?) way is to see Augustine's response to Manicheans (an early-mid 3rd century Gnostic offshoot of a Jewish Christian group that began around 100-116 A.D.). But Augustine didn't exactly quote and respond to the best arguments, plus he twisted many,while ignoring many more arguments.
His works are the best we have for debates however.
Some have only NOW been translated into English.
Like:
contra Adminantum, Manichaei discipulum
Answer to Adimantus, a disciple of Mani
In the new book, "The Manichean Debate, Volume 1; Volume 19"
(I did not know, a while back, that there were no translations of certain Augustine texts that were not public domain, until I noticed that I was reading a google book that had Augustine quotations which I was unfamiliar with. I scrambled around looking for an answer until I read reviews that explained that these are translations of never-translated Augustine texts)
From the introduction:
quote:
p.163
Introduction
Augustine tells us that, while he was still a priest, there came into his hands a work of Adimantus, who was a disciple of Mani. There is no reason not to take Augustine's use of the word "disciple" in the strict sense. Hence, Adimantus would most probably have been one of the twelve immediate disciples of Mani, the one whom Faustus of Milevis called "most learned" and "a man who should alone be studied after out blessed father, Mani". In his Answer to an Enemy of the Law and the Prophets Augustine tells us that Adimantus had the first name Addas. He was sent by Mani to Egypt to preach the Manichean religion, and from there it seems that his writing made its way to Augustine in Hippo Regius.
Deuteronomy had permitted people to kill animals and to eat them according to the desire of their hearts. Adimantus claimed that the gospel and the apostle Paul were opposed to this. Augustine states that Deuteronomy was not permitting the Jewish people to eat to the point of overindulgence. Adimantus quoted the apostle's words about not eating meat and drinking wine. Augustine accuses him of tking a single verse out of its context and quotes all of Romans 14. For the apostles did not, like the Manicheans, think that meat and wine were unclean but clearly stated that all foods were clean, though he advocated abstinence in order to control concupiscence and to avoid giving scandal to a weaker brother.
Augustine is puzzled that Adimantus opposed the apostle's words about not partaking of the table of the Lord and the table of demons to the passage in Deuteronomy about killing and eating animals, since the later passage had nothing to do with sacrifices. He again quotes at length from the apostle, this time from the First Letter to the Corinthians, to show that Paul was speaking of meat offered to idols. Finally, he explains that the animals that were called unclean in the Old Testament could symbolize various kinds of unclean or sinful human beings (chapter 14).
Adimantus found that the prohibition in Leviticus against eating various unclean animals was contrary to the words of Jesus, that nothing entering a man's mouth defiled him. Auguistine expresses his amazement that Adimantus would use these words of Jesus immediately after having claimed that meant and wine were unclean. Then Augustine argues that the unclean animals which the Jewish people were forbidden to eat symbolize the sorts of human conduct that the Church rejects as unclean and are not absorbed into her body. Adimantus claimed that Jesus had said to the crowds that nothing that entered a man's mouth defiled him, but that he forbade his disciples to eat meat...
The text of Augustine starts on p. 174 of the work.
quote:
Revisions I, 22 (21)
P.174
Answer to Adimantus, a Disciple of Mani
1. At the same time there came into my hands certain Discussions of Adimantus, who had been a disciple of Mani. He composed these Discussions against the law and the prophets, having tried to show that the gospel and the apostolic writings were as it were contrary to them. I replied to him, citing his words and giving my response. I completed the work in one volume, and in it I replied to certain questions not once but twice, because my first response had been lost and was then found after I had replied the second time. To be sure, I resolved some of the same questions in sermons addressed to the people of the Church. I have still not replied to others. Some remained that were passed over because of other more urgent matters as well as thoughtfulness.
.
p.190-194
On the words that one should not eat blood because blood is the soul of the flesh. The Manicheans oppose this statement of the old law the statement of the Lord in the gospel that we should not fear those who kill the body but cannot harm the soul. And they argue, saying, If blood is the soul, how can people fail to have power over it, since they do many things with blood, whether collecting it an setting before dogs and birds as food or spilling it and mixing it with filth and mud? After all, people can without difficulty do these and countless other things with blood. And so they ask insultingly how, if blood is the soul, a person's killer cannot harm the soul since he has such great power over the person's blood. They also add the words of the apostle Paul, For flesh and blood shall not possess the kingdom of God ( I Cor 15:50), and they say, If blood is the soul, as Moses says, no soul will be found to attain the kingdom of God.
To this slander the response ought to obliged to show where it is written in the books of the old law that the human soul is blood. For they will nowhere find this in that scripture, which those wretches will never be permitted to understand as long as they try to tear it to shreds. But if nothing of the sort is said there about the human soul, why does it matter to us if the soul of an animal either can be slain by a killer of cannot possess the kingdom of God? But these men are too concerned about the souls of animals. For, though the souls of human beings are rational, these people still think that those souls return in animals. For this reason they think that the heavenly kingdoms have been closed to them if they agree that they have been closed to the soul of animals.
12,2. Why is it that Adimantus, one of the disciples of Mani, whom they mention as a great teacher of that sect, has dared to insult the people of the Jews, then, because according to their idea that the soul is blood, the souls of their parents have partly been devoured by serpents, partly consumed by fire, and partly dried up in deserts and on the most rugged mountains. But even if anyone granted that this was true, he would not prove that those whom he chose to insult were guilty of any crime. For they did not in some way harm the souls of their parents, to which he said all this happens in accord with their idea. Hence, they feel grief over this, but not guilt.
But what will Adimantus himself do in keeping with his own opinion, according to which he believed that even rational souls, that is, the souls of human beings, can be stuffed into the bodies of wild animals? What, then, will he do about the great crime of wearing down a slow beast with blows or an excited one with reins, if his father's soul should happen to be in it? I do not want to mention that he could kill his parents in the midst of lice and fleas, for they do not refrain from the slaying of these. What good does it do them, after all, that they sometimes deny that human souls return in these very tiny living things? For they deny this so that they will not be held guilty of so many killings or be forced to spare lice and fleas and bedbugs and to endure such annoyances from them without any freedom to kill them! After all, they have a lot to explain as to why a human soul can return in a little fox and cannot return in a weasel, though the cub of the little fox is perhaps even smaller than a large weasel. Then, if it can return in a weasel, why can it not return in a mouse? And if it can return in a mouse, why can it not return in a lizard? And if it can return in a lizard, why can it not return in a locust? Then in a bee, then in a fly, then in a bedbug, and finally even in flea or in anything else that might be much smaller. They do not find anywhere to set a limit, and in this way their consciences are overwhelmed by countless crimes of murder on behalf of this silly belief.
12,3. For from the words of scripture that the blood of an animal is its soul, apart from what I said above, namely, that it is no concern of mine what happens to the soul of an animal, I can also interpret the commandment as a sign that was given. After all, the Lord did not hesitate to say, This is my body (Mt 26:26), when he gave us a sign of his body.
12,4. But as for the words of the apostle, Flesh and blood shall not possess the kingdom of God, it is also stated in the law: My spirit will not remain in them because they are flesh (Gn 6:3). And in the old books a future reward is promised many times to the souls of the righteous. But the apostle nonetheless wanted to convey what sort of body the righteous will have as a result of the change in the resurrection, because they will not marry or take wives, but they will be like the angels in heaven (Mt 22:30). Since he wanted to convey this future change of the bodies of the saints, then, the apostle said, For I say to you, brothers, that flesh and blood shall not possess the kingdom of God. This can be discovered not from one statement that has been singled out and quoted in order to deceive but from the study of the whole letter, or rather from just reading it, for the matter is not obscure.
For in this sense, he says, This corruptibility must don incorruptibility, and this mortality must don immortality (1 Cor 15:53). That he says this of the body is very evident from what went before, when he says, Not all flesh is the same; the flesh of human beings is other than that of animals; the flesh of birds and of fish is also different. And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of heavenly bodies is other than the glory of earthly ones. The glory of the sun is other than the glory of the moon and other than the glory of the stars. For star differs from star in glory. So too will be the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption; it will rise in incorruption. It is sown in ignominy; it will rise in glory. It is sown in weakness: it will rise in power. An animal body is sown; a spiritual body will rise. If the body is animal, it is also spiritual, as scripture says, The first man, Adam, became a living soul; the last Adam will become a life-giving spirit. But what is spiritual is not first, but what is animal; what is spiritual comes afterward. The first man is earthly from the earth; the second man is heavenly from heaven. The earthly are like the earthly man; the heavenly are like the heavenly man. And as we have donned the image of the earthly man, let us also don the image of him who is from heaven. But I say this, my brothers, because flesh and blood cannot possess the kingdom of God as their inheritance nor can corruption possess incorruption as its inheritance (I Cor 15:39-50). Surely it is already clear why the apostle said this. Why, then, does this fellow out of a shameful deceit cite only this last verse and pass over in silence the previous ones, by which people could correctly understand what the Manicheans misinterpret? For, because the body of the Lord was raised up to heaven after the resurrection in order to receive a heavenly transformation for that heavenly dwelling, and because we are commanded to hope for this also on the last day, the apostle said, The earthly are like the earthly man, that is, mortal, and the heavenly are like the heavenly man, that is, immortal not only in their souls but also in their bodies. Hence, he had also said above that the glory of heavenly bodies is other than the glory of earthly ones. But the fact that he said that the body will be spiritual in the resurrection should not lead us to think that it will not be a body but a spirit. Rather, he says that the body will be subject in every way to the spirit without any corruption or death. After all, we ought not to think that the body we now have is not a body but a soul because he refers to the body as animal. Therefore, just as it is now said to be an animal body because it is subject to the soul but cannoy yet be called spiritual because it is not yet fully subject to the spirit as long as it can suffer corruption, so it will then be called spiritual when it will be unable to resist the spirit and eternity because of some corruption.
12,5. Or is it still seems insufficiently proven that the apostle made this statement on account of the change that lies ahead, when he said, Flesh and blood cannot possess the kingdom of God as an inheritance, nor will corruption possess incorruption as an inheritance (1 Cor 15:50), pay attention to what he immediately adds: see, I tell you a mystery. We shall all indeed arise, but we shall not all be changed, in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will rise incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (I Cor 15:51-52) Then he goes on to say what I quoted a little before to show the sort of change this will be. Indeed, he immediately says, For it is necessary that this corruptible body put on incorruptibility and that this mortal body put on immortality ( I Cor 15:53). From this, then, you see that flesh and blood will not possess the kingdom of God because, when it dons incorruptibility and immortality, it will no longer be flesh and blood but will be changed into a human body. We have taken the opportunity to comment on this, because the Manicheans also attack this statement very much, since they deny the resurrection of the body. Fore the present question was not posed concerning the body but concerning the soul, which they think is understood in the law in such a way that it is thought to be blood, though we do not understand it in that way at all. But though we are not concerned about the souls of animals, with which we do not share reason, we still say that what the law says — namely that blood should be poured out and not taken as food because the blood is the soul — was stated there as a sign, like many other things And almost all the sacraments of those scriptures are full of figures and signs of the future proclamation that has now been revealed through our Lore Jesus Christ.
P.200-203
Let the Manicheans pay attention to this and see how it was said in Deuteronomy: Kill according to the desire of your soul, and eat every sort of meat in accord with the pleasure that the Lord has given you. After all, the fact that the Jews were given a commandment about not eating certain meats that are called unclean can signify unclean human beings who were represented in the old scriptures by symbols. For, just as that ox whose mouth scripture forbids us to muzzle when it is grinding wheat signifies the evangelist, as the apostle explains with perfect clarity, so those foods that were forbidden signify certain forms of uncleaness on the part of human beings, which are not admitted into the society of the body of Christ, that is, into the solid and everlasting Church. For it is as plain as can be that, with regard to food, absolutely nothing is unclean, but it is bad for a person who eats something and causes scandal.
15, 1. On the words in Leviticus: Separate the unclean from the clean, and let no one eat the meat of a camel, a donkey, a rabbit, a pig, an eagle, a falcon, a crow, a vulture, and so forth. Nowhere can the soul of this man, who raises as objections passages from the two Testaments as if they were opposed and contrary to each other, be more clearly proved to be utterly full of deceit and fraud than in this passage, where he mentioned that one should abstain from the meats of some animals.For he believed that he should set over against this idea the passage in the gospel where the Lord says, Nothing that enters into a man makes him unclean, but the things that come out of him make him unclean (Mt 15:11). If he did this in ignorance, there is nothing more blind, but if he did it knowingly, there is nothing more wicked. Had he himself not a little before quoted the testimony of the apostle who said, It is good, my brothers, not to eat meat or to drink wine (Rom 14:21), when he wanted something from the New Testament to opposes the Old, where it said, Kill according to the desire of your soul, and eat every sort of meat (Dt 12:15)? How, then, is he now pleased at the statement of the Lord where he says that there is nothing that enters into a man that makes him unclean but that the things that come out of a man make him unclean? Where will he hide from this statement? Where will he flee? Let him tell me. For, out of a perverse and superstitious pretense at abstinence, he commands people to flee from the uncleanness of meat and to separate it from the foods of the holy. Surely, after all, if it is true that the things that enter into a man do not make him unclean, the Manicheans make a big mistake when they say that people eat unclean foods when they eat meat. But if such foods are unclean, what will they do about this testimony drawn from evangelical and divine authority, where the Lord says that a man is not made unclean by the things that enter into him but by those that come out of him? And will they perhaps say, as they are accustomed to say when the authority of the scriptures puts pressure on them, that this passage was inserted into the gospel by those who corrupted the scriptures? Why, the, does Adimantus use this chapter as an authority and try to attack the Old Testament from a source by which he himself is knocked down? For any Catholic Christian, who reverences and understands both scriptures, will reply to him that these Testaments are not opposed, because the passages concerning the meat of certain animals, which God commanded a people who were still carnal not to eat, were put there to signify human conduct that the Church, which is the body of the Lord, cannot accept into the solid and everlasting bond of its unity. For she rejects them like unclean food and does not absorb them into her innermost parts.
Thus all those commandments imposed upon a carnal people foretold the future discipline of a spiritual people and, for this reason, do not contradict the statement of the Lord in which he says with complete truth that a man is not made unclean by the things that enter into him. For those words impose burdens upon slaves, while these words shake the yoke of slavery from those who are now free.Nonetheless, those words were uttered so that the burdens borne by slaves would foretell the faith of a free people. For, as the apostle says, all these things happened to them as symbols on account of us, upon whom the end of the ages has come (I Cor 10:11). If, therefore, the things that they endured happened symbolically, they accepted symbolically what they were commanded.
15, 2. When, therefore, I give these answers and show in this way that these two passages from the individual Testaments are not contradictory once they are compared, what is this fellow going to do?
....
Peter said to him in reply, Explain this parable to us (Mt. 15:15). And showing most clearly that it was not a parable but plain language, he said to them, Are you still without understanding? Do you not understand that everything that enters the mouth goes to the belly and is passed to the toilet? But what comes out of the mouth comes from the heart, an those things make a man unclean. For from the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false testimony, and blasphemies. These are what make a man unclean. To eat without washing one's hands does not make a man unclean. (Mt 15:16-20)
The Jews raised the question about unwashed hands, and the Lord used that as an occasion to make a general statement about the things that enter the mouth and go to the belly and are passed into the toilet, that is, about our food.
....
15,3. Perhaps one of them might say: "Explain to us, then, what is signified by the meat of a pig, a camel, a rabbit, a hawk, a crow and the others, from which the law commanded us to abstain." I do not want to, because it would take too long. But I suppose that I cannot. Does it follow then that no one can? And there are already countless volumes in which these things are explained. To refute these people it is enough for us that not I but the apostle says that those observances are a foreshadowing of what was to come.
Of the 4 European Gospels, Matthew was the Gospel that had the most authority to the Jewish Christians.
(Mark had zero authority among the Jewish Christians, and the Gospel of John had absolutely no authority, though Manicheans , as Gnostics, might not have opposed it so much, many Gnostics loved it)
But there was a Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, which had a high authority.
But, as to the ancient debates, this is as close as I can come to an actual debate.
Putting aside the inheritance of Jewish-Christian vegetarianism,it seems that Manicheans saw the spiritual (no eating meat!) as something to practice IN THE FLESH. Not just now, but RIGHT NOW. (not that any Manicheans are around anymore). Augustine paid lip service to being "spiritual" as opposed to "carnal", but it wasn't much more than empty wordsmithing IMO. Augustine could say Paul opposed eating meat only to avoid "scandal", and Augustine would indeed claim to be faithful to Paul, but it still did not stop him from making fun of Manicheans fearing their dead relative's souls were in the bodies of slaughtered animals. And it did certainly did not stop Augustine from killing the animals. The same Augustine that loved to steal from his parents "larder" as a child.
(Nice to see that the early 5th century still had some actual debate though. By the time Augustine died, during the 431 siege of Carthage by the Goths, the diversity was quickly being exterminated, despite the coming Gothic tolerance)

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LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 21 of 88 (846942)
01-13-2019 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by candle2
01-13-2019 10:14 AM


Romans 14
You might want to quote the entire chapter of Romans 14, and comment on the text as you go.
(also note that the point goes a bit into chapter 15)
Paul did say that he is convinced by Jesus that nothing is clean or unclean in itself. (14:14? I am going by memory)
The Manicheans were an offshoot of Jewish Christians (Elkesaites to be specific), and Paul was generally disliked by Jewish Christians, but the (Egyptian) Mani Codex has (Greek) Manichean text, which seems to be based on the the words of Mani (?), that very much indicates a lot of gratitude towards the apostle Paul.
Manicheans were familiar with Paul and respected him very much.
Manicheans saw (what we now divide up as Romans "14") Romans 14 as being about straight vegetarianism.
I don't know how much time Jewish Christians (Nazarenes, Nazoreans, Ebionites, Elkesaites, etc.) spent exegeting Paul, as there aren't really the texts available to enlighten the situation. The closest hint is in the texts of Jerome, who himself spent time in Palestine and he did read texts from the Hebrew libraries of the Nazarenes.
Jerome, like the Manicheans, also quoted Romans 14:21 to support vegetarianism as a requirement of Christians, though I feel the entire chapter needs to be quoted to see the point.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by candle2, posted 01-14-2019 2:40 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 22 of 88 (846949)
01-13-2019 8:55 PM


KREAS is a rarely used word by Paul (Roman 14:21, 1 Cor 8:13 only)
Romans 14:21 is the verse that was used by Manicheans, which we are aware of thanks to Augustine's attempt to shred the religion he abandoned (to save his life in the Roman Empire).
Strong's Greek: 2907. (kreas) -- flesh
quote:
Strong's Concordance
kreas: flesh
Original Word: κρέας, έως, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: kreas
Phonetic Spelling: (kreh'-as)
Definition: flesh
Usage: flesh; plur: pieces of flesh, kinds of flesh.
....
Englishman's Concordance
Romans 14:21 N-ANP
GRK: μὴ φαγεῖν κρέα μηδὲ πιεῖν
NAS: It is good not to eat meat or to drink
KJV: neither to eat flesh, nor to drink
INT: not to eat meat nor drink
1 Corinthians 8:13 N-ANP
GRK: μὴ φάγω κρέα εἰς τὸν
NAS: eat meat again, so
KJV: no flesh while the world standeth,
INT: not should I eat meat to the
Strong's Greek 2907
2 Occurrences
κρέα 2 Occ.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2907: κρέας
κρέας, τό (cf. Latincaro, cruor; Curtius, 74), plural κρέα (cf. Winers Grammar, 65 (63); (Buttmann, 15 (13))); (from Homer down); the Sept. very often for בָּשָׂר; (the) flesh (of a sacrificed animal): Romans 14:21; 1 Corinthians 8:13.
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
flesh, meat
Perhaps a primary word; (butcher's) meat -- flesh.
Forms and Transliterations
κρεα κρέα κρέας κρέατα κρεών krea kra
Hebrew BaSaR is often translated, in the Septuagint, using this word Paul rarely used.
But understand this important point:
The Roman Catholic sweep (under the rug) is all we have, tradition wise, when it comes to giving Paul's specific words their due weight.
Manicheans (also known, ironically enough, as Kathars, to their contemporary Roman Catholic Europeans in the 11th to 14th centuries THOUGH CATHARS SEEM TO BE A DIFFERENT ANCIENT GROUP) left no interpretive traditions that had any extant mark in "Christianity" - as we have known it for the last 500-700 years.
(Ethiopian Christians aside, the only traditional restrictions on meat among "Christians" will be the Lent practices)
But Paul's words are still there (is there any THERE there for 21st century Christians to notice?).
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

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 Message 24 by candle2, posted 01-14-2019 4:15 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 25 of 88 (846996)
01-14-2019 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by candle2
01-14-2019 2:40 PM


Re: Romans 14
quote:
In your support for eating contaminated/polluted meat, you are using the
same basic verses and philosophy that I used for several decades.
Even when I became absolutely (beyond a shadow of doubt) convinced that
eating scavengers was a sin, it took me a good while to give them up.
I was saying that Mark 7:19 was supportive of that.
(Today's extant Greek text Matthew) Matthew 15 was not.
(Both were Greek/Roman authored texts, and did not represent the circle of Jesus)
(I feel the evidence leans in the direction which SUGGESTS the early - as in post-Easter - Christians were vegetarian, and also never ate pork)
I also see this modern day "scavenger" projection as having ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with any ancient debates (so far as I know, the issue of pigs and parasites is a modern European Christian imposition on the Biblical text of Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14), and it really has no Biblical place in this discussion (except for the problem that people somehow keep bringing it up)
You are getting ahead of yourself by the way (by the way = "btw").
quote:
Today, those of us who won't eat pork or other continated meat are lucky.
My wife cooks turkey ham, and several have stated that it is as good as any
ham they have had.
Also excellent is turkey bacon; turkey balogna; turkey spam; and, turkey sausage.
Aside from fish, most people in the early Christian world never could afford (or find a way) to eat any of these meats.
However, rich Christians like Augustine sure loved all meats, and dug right in.
AND DO NOTE:
"Continated" is not a Biblical concept.
You are regurgitating a very modern concept when it comes to taboo meat.
The Augustine debate with Adimantus shows that the early Christian concern (among the Jewish Christians) was concern for animals lives and (gasp) "souls", which the Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholics didn't care one wit about. The European mutation of the Jesus religion will only allow modern day projections to be the debate, but take note of the actual ancient debate which had the Jewish Christian position on the one hand (concern for animal's lives), and the Roman Empire "Christianity" (granted it had earlier pre-Constantine precedents for sure) on the other.
quote:
The reason God forbids those He loves (and he loves us all) is that scavengers
omnivores, carnivores, creeping things, and animals of prey are highlyd contaminated and toxic.
These animals are no different today than they were then.
There is nothing in your above comment that has anything to do with the views of Jesus and Paul back "then".
There is nothing in your above comments that has anything to do with the Israelites who wrote Leviticus and Deuteronomy (or Isaiah 65, Is. 66., etc.) back "then".
"Scavengers" and "contaminated" (with parasites) and "toxic" simply did were not a part of the ancient people's consciousness.
Jerome (the guy who authored the 382 Vulgate, which was essentially the canon before the 397 Council of Carthage) felt it was a sin to eat meat, but he also recommended Christians avoid vegetables that made people fart - like broccoli and related vegetables, though the latter wasn't a sin issue.
quote:
Just as some vegetation was not designed for human consumption,
the same goes for animals.
I've heard some say that now we are living under grace, which frees us from the
dietary laws. However, there' s not one single case in the OT where someone earned eternal life. It has always been a matter of God's grace.
To you, not being "designed for human consumption" meant something totally different from the Israelite authors of the Torah, as well as the later Jewish Christians.
Where is "eternal life" mentioned in the Old Testament? Show me 2 places.
And Christian documents say different things about what is allowed to be eaten.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

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LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 26 of 88 (846997)
01-14-2019 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by candle2
01-14-2019 4:15 PM


Re: KREAS is a rarely used word by Paul (Roman 14:21, 1 Cor 8:13 only)
quote:
Unclean animals have there place in the world, but it's not on the dinner plate.
....
New golf courses under construction oftentimes use hogs to root out and eat
poisonous snakes.
Swine have so much toxins in their bodies that a way is needed to get rid of it.
Their digestive system is nowhere adequate for this task.
So, did you do a google search to investigate the position of Jerome and the Manicheans on Romans 14:21?
Jerome did say "poison of the flesh", but he did not mean it in the way you are (projecting) saying.
(try to apply your comments to the actual Romans 14:21 KREAS issue if you are not)
But, let us put aside the early Christian views, and look at the Law of Moses, or the Torah.
Tuna and Salmon eat other fish, and they are loaded with mercury (relative to sardines and anchovies which are forage fishes and essentially eat plant life).
They are large fish, and that seems to play a role.
(Many Tuna are high in mercury, and there is a growing awareness of the risks of these fish, though they used to be describes as lower mercury type of fish compared to Sharks and Swordfish).
But Tuna ans Sardines are both "clean", according to the old Law of Moses.
Explain.

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LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


(1)
Message 39 of 88 (847175)
01-18-2019 10:56 PM


Is a chicken a scavenger?
I don't know if this will be ignored by Candle, but here is why I ask.
I put ARE CHICKENS SCAVENGERS into google.I already know that chickens will eat ANY type of meat, even chicken meat, when they scavenge.
Here are a few links from google.
quote:
Billions of village or backyard, mainly scavenging, chickens are found in almost all developing countries throughout the world. In many African countries, village chickens make up 70-80% of the national flock.
Page not found - Poultry Hub Australia
Special scavenging breeds have been developed, as the above link shows.
Here is a Kosher discussion.
quote:
this section would therefore be a short discussion of the chicken, which is universally accepted as kosher.
Records indicate that chickens were domesticated and eaten in Israel as early as the seventh century BCE, although following the fall of the Roman Empire chickens predominantly reverted to the role of indigenous scavengers until the agriculture renaissance of the 19th century.
There is little question that a chicken is a kosher bird regardless of its breed (see Darkei T'shuva YD 82:24). Just like scientifically they are all chickens, so too halachically.
https://www.kashrut.com/articles/turk_part5/
The chicken is a scavenging animal, right?
Any comments or answers on this one?

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by candle2, posted 01-19-2019 5:53 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 40 of 88 (847176)
01-18-2019 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by AZPaul3
01-18-2019 6:51 AM


Re: What Would Jesus Declare In 2019?
[quoe]
Can't argue against that. He/she/it did get into scavengers, bottom feeders, garbage eaters, etc. as reasons, which just so happen to correspond to the reasons of the ancient priests. [/quote]
The Rabbinical commentary included observations about the proscribed birds (Leviticus 11, Deuteronomy 14) being birds of prey. There is a difference between a scavenger and a bird of prey (the Bald Eagle is a scavenger, while an Owl is a bird of prey).
I asked him for evidence to back up his claim about diseases and scavenging.
Candle refused to respond to my question.
(One would think he could take SOMETHING from the ancient records, even if it was highly selective and misleading)

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LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 41 of 88 (847177)
01-18-2019 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by AZPaul3
01-17-2019 7:17 PM


What does Jewish tradition show? (the reasons are unknown according to tradition)
quote:
In the ancient world there were major issues with pork and other meats being difficult to keep from contaminants both of the animal and of the meat after slaughter. The resulting dietary restrictions were quite prudent at the time and should surprise no one that they made their way into the prevailing religious memes in a population.
Even Maimonides said that (medieval Spanish?) people don't consider Pork to be harmful to health.
quote:
The Health and Hygiene Explanation
Biblical law's regulation of food exists to protect the health of the Israelite people. This is one of the most persistent explanations of the biblical food regulations, and scholars who attempt to offer an alternative explanation will often first try to refute the health hypothesis. Philo,48 a Jewish philosopher who lived in Alexandria during the first century, holds that Moses protected the health of the Israelites by choosing to prohibit the most delicious meats:
[Moses] has forbidden with all his might all animals, whether of the land, or of the water, or that fly through the air, which are most fleshy and fat, and calculated to excite treacherous pleasure, well knowing that such, attracting as with a bait that most slavish of all the outward senses, namely, taste, produce insatiability, an incurable evil to both souls and bodies, for insatiability produces indigestion, which is the origin and source of all diseases and weaknesses.
The health and hygiene rationale claims other distinguished proponents such as Maimonides and
Nahmanides.50 Maimonides, a physician as well as a biblical scholar, proposes in Guide for the
Perplexed that health reasons are the motivation behind many of the biblical food regulations:
I maintain that the food which is forbidden by the Law is unwholesome. There is nothing among the forbidden kinds of food whose injurious character is doubted, except pork (Lev. xi. 7), and fat (ibid. vii. 23). But also in these cases the doubt is not justified. For pork contains more moisture than necessary [for human food], and too much of superfluous matter. . . . The fat of the intestines makes us full, interrupts our digestion, and produces cold and thick blood; it is more fit for fuel [than for human food]. Blood (Lev. xvii. 12), and
48 Philo of Alexandria lived from ca. 20 B.C.E. - ca. 50 C.E.
Food Regulation in Biblical Law
So much for an easy answer.
But the brainwashing continues.

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LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 43 of 88 (847186)
01-19-2019 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by candle2
01-19-2019 9:09 AM


Re: What Would Jesus Declare up to Louis Pasteur's anthrax vaccine?
Candle will ignore this on
(like he ignores everything else)
quote:
Globally, at least 2,000 cases occur a year with about two cases a year in the United States. Skin infections represent more than 95% of cases. ... Until the 20th century, anthrax infections killed hundreds of thousands of people and animals each year. Anthrax has been developed as a weapon by a number of countries.
Anthrax - Wikipedia
Anthrax - Wikipedia
What does it have to do with his bogus theological claim?
quote:
All domestic animals are potentially hazardous to human health. Undercooked beef, for example, is a prolific source of tape worms, which can grow to a length of sixteen to twenty feet inside the human gut, induce a severe case of anemia, and lower the body's resistance to other diseases. Cattle, goat, and sheep transmit the bacterial disease known as brucellosis, whose symptoms include fever, aches, pains, and lassitude. The most dangerous disease transmitted by cattle, sheep, and goats is anthrax, a fairly common disease of both animals and humans in Europe and Asia until the introduction of Louis Pasteur's anthrax vaccine in 1881. Unlike trichinosis, which does not produce symptoms in the majority of infected individuals and rarely has a fatal outcome, anthrax runs a swift course that begins with an outbreak of boils and ends in death.65
....
65 Marvin Harris. Good to Eat: Riddles of Food and Culture ( New York: Simon and Schuster, 1985), 70-71.
Food Regulation in Biblical Law
Still waiting for answers from "candle2".

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LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 55 of 88 (847258)
01-20-2019 1:56 AM


What is wrong with hand washing (which alone shot up life expectancy by decades)?
Anthrax deaths from animals like cows way outnumber problems from pork and parasites.
quote:
[700 BC was the ancient origins of anthrax? ]
Anthrax is thought to have originated in Egypt and Mesopotamia. Many scholars think that in Moses’ time, during the 10 plagues of Egypt, anthrax may have caused what was known as the fifth plague, described as a sickness affecting horses, cattle, sheep, camels and oxen.
Ancient Greece and Rome were also well acquainted with anthrax, and this is illustrated in many of the ancient writings of the most famous scholars from those times. For example, many scholars think anthrax was depicted by Homer in The Iliad, written around 700 BC, and in poems by Virgil, who lived from 70-19 BC. Some even suggest that anthrax may have contributed to the fall of Rome.
https://www.cdc.gov/anthrax/resources/history/index.html
It hits the Middle East alot, even today.
quote:
....
As a general matter, anthrax spores germinate to produce multiplying vegetative forms only after infecting a living host. That host is most commonly a herbivore which, grazing in an anthrax-contaminated field, ingests the bacillus along with its feed and is then infected through some preexisting gastrointestinal lesion. Once inside the body of a cow, for example, anthrax spores are carried to its lymphatics, where they begin to germinate. The first vegetative bacilli entering the cow's blood stream are effectively filtered by the animal's reticuloendothelial system. But even then the bacilli are releasing toxins, which soon overwhelm the poor beast. As the disease approaches its end stage, the number of anthrax bacteria in a host can double in less than two hours, and this chaotic growth eventually produces massive toxemia that destroys the endothelial cell lining of blood vessels.
....
IS ANTHRAX AS RARE AS THEY SAY? Not in animals it isn't. Cases of livestock anthrax are reported almost every year throughout the world. Spain, Albania, Italy, and Romania suffer significant outbreaks on a regular basis. Turkey, Greece, and Russia are subject to widespread infections. The Middle East and Central Asia comprise an "anthrax belt" in which severe epidemics are commonplace. Chinese livestock are riddled with anthrax in most sections of the country. Australia experienced a major epidemic in early 1997. The disease is endemic in Mexico, Honduras, Nicaragua, and Costa Rica, and hyperendemic in El Salvador, Guatemala, and Peru. Here in the United States, livestock vaccination and antibiotic prophylaxis have become almost routine during the past few decades, and anthrax outbreaks are recorded at nowhere near the levels they were before World War II. But they are not unheard of; Texas has a particular problem, with 56 separate confirmed incidents between 1979 and 1997.
....
HAS NATURALLY OCCURRING ANTHRAX EVER BEEN A SIGNIFICANT HUMAN HEALTH PROBLEM? Yes. Throughout much of recorded history, anthrax has periodically devastated both rural and urban populations. For instance: The mystery has never been solved definitively, but more than a few medical historians have long believed that the 430-427 b.c. "plague of Athens," a famously gruesome, eyewitness account of which appears in Thucydides' "History of the Peloponnesian War," was a bacillus anthracis pandemic. Certain symptoms Thucydides described--fever, bleeding, and "small pustules and ulcers"--are strikingly consistent with a severe form of cutaneous anthrax infection, in which the bacteria enter the body through abrasions on the skin, which then breaks out into ulcerating lesions and large, scabby "eschars." It is from the color and discomfort of these characteristic eschars, incidentally, that the anthrax bacillus derives its scientific name, after the Greek word (anthrakis) for "burning coal." In the third book of "The Georgics," his idealization of rustic life in first-century b.c. Rome, the poet Virgil paused for a moment to acknowledge that anthrax epidemics were a downside, choking "the very stalls with carrion-heaps that rot in hideous corruption" and afflicting any man who dared come near an infected animal with "red blisters and an unclean sweat"--until "his noisome limbs . . . no long tarriance made, the fiery curse his tainted frame devoured." For most of the next two thousand years, anthrax outbreaks swept across huge tracts of land from time to time, killing massive numbers of people in 14th-century Germany and 17th-century Central Europe and Russia, for example. In fact, anthrax remained so central to medical consciousness in the late 19th century that modern microbiology was founded specifically on its study. Anthrax was the first disease for which a microbial etiology was firmly established, by Louis Pasteur in 1876. IS NATURALLY OCCURRING ANTHRAX A SIGNIFICANT HUMAN HEALTH PROBLEM TODAY? Yes and no
https://www.weeklystandard.com/david-tell/all-about-anthrax
Millions of people died each and every year BEFORE 1881.
Pigs are safer to eat, and always were.
Look at the animals that kill people today.
quote:
Top 8 Deadliest & Most Common Types of Foodborne Pathogens
By Stanley Rutledge Posted August 9, 2016 In Food Safety News
Learn how to avoid getting sick every year from the top 8 most common types of foodborne illnesses. The CDC estimates that one in six Americans (48 million people) gets sick from foodborne diseases. Beyond falling ill, 128,000 are hospitalized and 3,000 cases turn deadly.
What they are, how they get into your food, and how to avoid getting sick
At the center of all this devastating sickness and death lie eight of the most common and deadly foodborne pathogens, which the CDC identifies as:
Campylobacter
Clostridium perfringens
E. coli
Listeria monocytogenes
Norovirus
Salmonella
Staphylococcus aureus
Toxoplasma
Campylobacter
Campylobacteriosis is an infectious disease caused by a bacteria called Campylobacter. Most people who become ill with campylobacteriosis get diarrhea, cramping, abdominal pain, and fever within two to five days after exposure. The diarrhea may be bloody and can be accompanied by nausea and vomiting. The illness typically lasts about one week. Some infected people don’t have any symptoms. In those with compromised immune systems, Campylobacter occasionally spreads to the bloodstream and causes a serious life-threatening infection.
Infection occurs most commonly by ingestion of the bacteria via contaminated food or water, particularly raw or undercooked meats (especially poultry) or raw milk, and from contact with pets (especially puppies and kittens), farm animals, and infected infants.
Campylobacter can affect anyone; however, the most vulnerable are very young children (5 years and under) and the elderly.
You can help prevent exposure to Campylobacterand ALL harmful pathogens that cause foodborne illnessby diligently doing many food safety basics like proper hand washing, keeping food prep areas clean, and cooking meats to safe temperatures.
....
Clostridium perfringens
Clostridium perfringens (C. perfringens) is a bacteria found in many environmental sources and in the intestines of humans and animals. C. perfringens is commonly found on raw meat and poultry. It grows best in conditions with very little or no oxygen, and, under ideal conditions, it can multiply very rapidly. Some strains of C. perfringens produce a toxin in the intestine that causes illness.
People infected with C. perfringens develop diarrhea and abdominal cramps within 6 to 24 hours (typically 8 to 12 hours). Symptoms usually begins suddenly and last for less than 24 hours. People infected with C. perfringens usually do not have fever or vomiting.
Everyone is susceptible to becoming ill from C. perfringens. The very young and elderly are most at risk, though, and can experience more severe symptoms that may last for one to two weeks. Complications, including dehydration, may occur in severe cases.
....
E. coli
Escherichia coli (E. coli) are a large and diverse group of bacteria. Although most strains of E. coli are harmless, others can make you sick. Some kinds of E. coli can cause diarrhea while others cause urinary tract infections, respiratory illness, pneumonia, and other illnesses.
Some of the most harmful E. coli strains cause disease by making a toxin called Shiga toxin. These are called Shiga toxin-producing E. coli, or STEC. You might hear these bacteria called verocytotoxic E. coli (VTEC) or enterohemorrhagic E. coli (EHEC); these all refer to the same group of bacteria. The STEC strain E. coli O104:H4 that caused a large outbreak in Europe in 2011 was frequently referred to as EHEC. The most commonly identified STEC in North America is E. coli O157:H7 (often shortened to E. coli O157 or even just O157). When you hear news reports about outbreaks of E. coli infections, they’re usually talking about E. coli O157.
Symptoms of STEC infections vary for each person but often include severe stomach cramps, diarrhea (often bloody), and vomiting. Some types of STEC frequently cause severe disease including hemolytic uremic syndrome (HUS), which is a type of kidney failure. If fever is present, it usually isn’t very high (less than 101˚F). Most people get better within five to seven days. Some infections are very mild, but others are severe or even life-threatening.
People of any age can become infected with E. coli. Very young children and the elderly are more likely to develop severe illness and HUS than others, but even healthy older children and young adults can become seriously ill.
....
Listeria monocytogenes
Listeriosis is a serious infection usually caused by eating food contaminated with the bacteria Listeria monocytogenes.
Someone with listeriosis usually has fever and muscle aches, which are sometimes preceded by diarrhea or other gastrointestinal (GI) symptoms. Almost everyone diagnosed with listeriosis has an invasive infection where the bacteria spreads beyond the GI tract.
Symptoms do vary, though, depending on the infected person.
Pregnant women typically experience fever and other non-specific symptoms like fatigue and aches. However, infections during pregnancy can lead to miscarriage, stillbirth, premature delivery, or life-threatening infection of the newborn. Symptoms in others can include headache, stiff neck, confusion, loss of balance, and convulsions, in addition to fever and muscle aches. In older adults and people with immunocompromised conditions, septicemia and meningitis are the most common clinical presentations.
Listeria primarily affects older adults, pregnant women, newborns, and adults with weakened immune systems. However, people outside of these groups can also get sick.
....
Norovirus
Norovirus is a very contagious virus that can infect anyone. You can get it from an infected person, contaminated food or water, or by touching contaminated surfaces. The virus causes your stomach or intestines or both to get inflamed. This leads you to have stomach pain, nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting. These symptoms can be serious for some people, especially young children and older adults, who are most vulnerable.
....
Salmonella
Salmonella is a bacteria commonly found in raw food products that come from animals such as eggs, egg products, meat, meat products, unpasteurized milk, or other unpasteurized dairy products.
Most people infected with Salmonella develop diarrhea, fever, and abdominal cramps between 12 and 72 hours after infection. The illness usually lasts four to seven days, and most individuals recover without treatment. In some cases, diarrhea may be so severe that the infected person needs to be hospitalized. For these people, the Salmonella infection may spread from the intestines to the blood stream and then to other body sites. This can ultimately cause death unless the person is treated promptly with antibiotics.
People most at risk for a severe Salmonella infection are the elderly, infants, and those with impaired immune systems.
....
Staphylococcus aureus
Staphylococcus aureus (Staph) is a common bacterium found on the skin and in the noses of up to 25% of healthy people and animals. Usually it causes no illness in these healthy people unless it’s transmitted to food products. Staph has potential to be a very harmful pathogen because it can make several types of toxins, many of which are responsible for food poisoning.
Staphylococcal food poisoning is a GI illness. It’s caused by eating foods contaminated with toxins produced by Staph. Food workers who carry Staph and then handle food without washing their hands contaminate foods by direct contact. The bacterium can also be found in unpasteurized milk and cheese products. Staph toxins are resistant to heat, so they can’t be destroyed by cooking. Foods at highest risk of producing toxins from Staph are those that are made by hand and require no cooking like sliced meat, puddings, pastries, and sandwiches.
Staph toxins are fast-acting, sometimes causing illness in as little as 30 minutes after eating contaminated foods; however, symptoms usually develop within one to six hours. People infected typically experience several of the following symptoms: nausea, vomiting, stomach cramps, and diarrhea.
Everyone is at risk for Staph food poisoning.
....
https://stopfoodborneillness.org/...adly-foodborne-pathogens
Looks like washing hands (nevermind European Christians ANTI HAND WASHING Mark 7 text aside)
See this link, below, for specific foods that have brought deaths.
Looks like most of it is from Chicken, Turkey, and Beef.
17 of the Worst Foodborne Illness Outbreaks in U.S. History
quote:
Foodborne illness, or food poisoning, affects about one in six Americans every year. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimates that of these cases, there are 128,000 hospitalizations and 3,000 deaths annually.
You can get food poisoning when your food carries dangerous germs or toxins. Salmonella is the most common known cause of hospitalization due to food poisoning in the United States with over 19,000 cases per year.
This pathogen, along with others, can get into your food through:
improper food handling
unsafe practices on farms
contamination during manufacturing or distributing
contamination in stores
Read about the biggest foodborne outbreaks in recent U.S. history, and learn how to recognize food poisoning and protect yourself from it.
Salmonella outbreaks over time
....
Most people recover from Salmonella infection within four to seven days. Symptoms such as diarrhea, fever, and abdominal cramps usually appear 12 to 72 hours after infection. Treatment includes antidiarrheal medications, antibiotics, and fluids and electrolytes.
2009: PCA peanut butter
The Peanut Corporation of America (PCA) experienced a Salmonella outbreak. According to CDC, 714 people got sick and nine died from PCA’s peanut butter. The company prompted a recall of over 3,600 peanut butter products. PCA is now bankrupt.
2011: Cargill ground turkey
Cargill recalled 36 million pounds of ground turkey when it suspected the meat may have been contaminated with an antibiotic-resistant strain of Salmonella. This outbreak caused at least one death and about 136 illnesses across 34 states.
2013: Foster Farms chicken
California chicken producer Foster Farms was suspected of infecting a total of 634 persons with Salmonella. Incidents spread across 29 states and Puerto Rico, but no deaths were reported. The company issued a voluntary recall on all Foster Farms brand chicken products.
2015: Mexican cucumbers
Salmonella from cucumbers imported from Mexico infected 907 people in 40 states. This outbreak resulted in the hospitalization of more than 200 persons and six deaths.
The cucumbers were distributed by Andrew & Williamson Fresh Produce. The company issued two separate recalls.
....
Escherichia coli outbreaks in food
....
E. coli bacteria normally lives in the intestines of animals and humans. However, infections from certain strains of this bacteria can sicken humans. Symptoms usually develop three to four days after exposure. They include:
diarrhea
bloody stools
abdominal pain
vomiting
fever (occasional)
The strain of E.coli most often associated with outbreaks produces a toxin. The toxin is what causes the illness, so antibiotics are ineffective. According to the CDC, antibiotics and anti-diarrhea medicines may increase risk of complications. Treatment involves rest, fluids, and, in severe cases, hospitalization.
1993: Jack in the Box hamburgers
Four people in Washington and California died from eating contaminated meat from Jack in the Box. Hundreds of other customers also fell ill. This caused a national panic, nearly resulting in the end for the fast-food chain. The outbreak led to stronger government regulations of food handling.
I don't see too many Pork-meat deaths today.
Or yesterday.
Ironic that hand-washing is so vital (I will skip quoting the value of this amazing "advance", though Jewish people have been aware of it for a long time, as even the anti-Jewish Gospels show).
What is so bad about hand-washing anyway?
O yea, Mark 7 says so.

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 57 of 88 (847261)
01-20-2019 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by candle2
01-19-2019 5:53 PM


NEWS The 1 "major violation" in food-born illness case: lack of hand washing
Source of food-borne illness that sickened 38 at Beaumont baby shower is under investigation – Press Enterprise
quote:
Source of food-borne illness that sickened 38 at Beaumont baby shower is under investigation
Some of the food came from a Yucaipa restaurant, whose owner is defending his establishment as clean and safe.
By NIKIE JOHNSON | nijohnson@scng.com |
PUBLISHED: January 18, 2019 at 5:54 pm | UPDATED: January 18, 2019 at 7:22 pm
About three dozen people got sick after attending an event in Beaumont this month, including a 1-year-old who suffered seizures that night, and health officials are investigating what the source may have been and whether all of the symptoms are due to a food-borne illness.
The Fat Greek Restaurant in Yucaipa catered the event, which co-owner Chris Houvardas said was a baby shower. Houvardas insisted his food was not to blame, noting that people at the party brought their own food as well, and that there was a very sick child in attendance. On our side, they did everything the way they’re supposed to do, he said of his staff.
The baby shower took place Jan. 6, and health officials said about 70 people attended. That night and into the next morning, 38 of them became ill with symptoms from nausea and dizziness to diarrhea and vomiting, according to a report by San Bernardino County’s Division of Environmental Health Services that did not identify any of the people involved.
That agency has been investigating the restaurant, while the Disease Control Branch of Riverside County’s health department is interviewing the people who got sick because most of them live in Riverside County. The investigations have not been completed, but they could result in corrective action against the Fat Greek if any issues are found to have contributed to the outbreak, a spokeswoman said.
Several people were sick enough that they went to the emergency room or urgent care. Paramedics were called for the baby who was having seizures.
Whether the seizures were directly connected to the food-borne illness is unclear. Barbara Cole, head of disease control in Riverside County, didn’t have information such as whether the child had a history of seizures, what the doctor’s findings had been or how the child is doing now.
I could not say a little one with a seizure was due to this outbreak, she said.
Like Houvardas, Cole also noted that some of the food eaten at the event was homemade, and said her agency is still evaluating what caused the illness.
A restaurant inspector visited the Fat Greek on Jan. 11 to begin a thorough investigation, including interviewing the operator about how food is prepared and examining equipment.
All of the food tested that day was within a safe temperature range, but the inspector did find that a produce refrigerator was 50 degrees at the bottom rack, which is not within the safe range. However, the operator told the inspector all of the ingredients that needed to be kept cold for the Jan. 6 catered event would have been in a different refrigerator that was working properly.
A graded inspection also was conducted Jan. 11, resulting in a score of 84, a B grade, which San Bernardino County considers generally acceptable. The one major violation was for an employee not washing hands before putting on gloves and making a salad; there also were 10 lesser violations. Online records that go back to 2014 show the restaurant has been inspected seven other times during those years and received all A grades.
Houvardas defended his restaurant’s practices.
I work my butt off to keep a clean place, he said. You could eat off the floor here.
He said all of the food he served that day came from the same supplier he’s used for years and that supplies other area restaurants. He said employees nibbled on some of the food that was left over as they were breaking down the event, and none of them got sick. And no customers who ate the same dishes served at the restaurant over the weekend reported getting sick, he said.
The Fat Greek Restaurant has been in Yucaipa for 13 years, said Houvardas, who described his business as a family affair.
Our reputation, we really try to take care of it, he said.
Cole said her agency investigates one or two food-borne illness outbreaks per year; a recent investigation was into a wedding in San Timoteo Canyon in September where more than 30 people were sickened. However, she said it’s unusual for cases to involve so many patients.
Cole recommended frequent handwashing as a way to avoid getting sick. She also said that food doesn’t taste or seem right, people should stop eating it. And if someone does get sick, they should contact a health care provider so they can be assessed.
The department also conducts outreach with medical professionals to make sure they’re aware of reporting requirements so outbreaks like this one can be discovered and investigated.
Source of food-borne illness that sickened 38 at Beaumont baby shower is under investigation – Press Enterprise
Here is a website that covers the known Rabbinical rules and laws in the sacred texts.
Public health measures derived from the Jewish tradition: II. Washing and cleaning - Hektoen International
(the New Testament record, in Mark 7, involves an oral law tradition that didn't make the final cut when there was a collection and editing of the rules, and IT IS NOT COVERED on this link)
Here is just the first part of the page.
quote:
Public health measures derived from the Jewish tradition: II. Washing and cleaning
Tova Chein,
Mark Epelbaum,
Robert Stern
New York, New York, USA
Introduction
Historically, Jewish contributions to public health measures have not been given adequate attribution. The previous article in this series (Hektoen International, Winter 2016) documented the ancient Jewish recognition of the importance of:
isolation of individuals with an infectious disease (leprosy, and a more probable translation from the Hebrew, small pox), probably the first public health measure in recorded history
tuberculosis as an infectious disorder, transmitted to humans from tuberculous cows.
Biblical text is covered, then the Mishnah and Talmud.
My theory:
The Mark 7 text (which attacked hand washing) might have intimidated the Rabbinical community from including even stricter hand-washing rules in the final WRITTEN Mishnah.
I put "Ignaz Semmelweis WASHING HANDS BIBLICAL" into google, and some creationist Christians are actually attempting to claim that they are in a line of religious-folks that are (somehow) supporters of washing hands, but it goes 100% contrary to the theories of "candle2". He says that the Biblical Torah laws, around issues touching food and food preparation, are simply about human health, and he invokes the New Testament as a support for the laws.
The New Testament rejects the strict hand-washing, for sure. If the theory is that the New Testament writers were God-inspired to consider the food/food preparation laws as HEALTH ONLY ISSUES, then Christianity is falsified scientifically.
(If one considers the New Testament Gospel to be separating the rules considered morally important verses ritualistic, then it is another matter entirely)
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by candle2, posted 01-19-2019 5:53 PM candle2 has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 71 of 88 (847383)
01-22-2019 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by candle2
01-21-2019 9:25 AM


Please clarify your interpretation of Jesus' position on hand washing.
quote:
I"ve made an excellent case, based on the Bible and common sense. I have seen nothing to alter my views in the least
....
For me, the Bible is the final authority.
I might not understand your position, forgive me.
How does hand washing relate to your intrepretation of the Biblical text?
(Keep in mind the hard washing was part of the ORAL LAW, and to make things complicated, the ORAL LAW has, since the time of Jesus, been put into a written SECOND LAW - The Mishnah. But this Oral Tradition of a rule did not make the final cut. THE HAND WASHING THINGY IN MARK 7/MATTHEW 15 WILL NOT BE FOUND IN THE OLD TESTAMENT)
Does Jesus reject hand washing as a worthless practice when it comes to making one healthy?
You said he did not reject the ban on pork eating, right?
(except you say the Mosaic ban on pork was NOT A MORAL COMMAND but some sort of health law? Should I put health law in caps since you seem to feel that there is a previously unknown type of law division in the Torah? "Health Law"?)
There is alot of confusion here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by candle2, posted 01-21-2019 9:25 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by candle2, posted 01-22-2019 7:25 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 77 of 88 (847463)
01-23-2019 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by candle2
01-22-2019 7:25 PM


Re: Please clarify your interpretation of Jesus' position on hand washing.
quote:
Some use Mark 7 and Matthew 15 in an attempt to undermine God's order in Lev. 11 and Deut. 14 against eating unclean animals
More like 99% of Christians, not "some".
Scholars see a difference between the 2 chapters.
quote:
The issue in these chapters is "unwashed hands," not unclean meat.
Mark 7 is about unclean meat (perhaps not Matthew 15).
quote:
Hand washing was a tradition of the Pharisees. It was ceremonially done in a prescribed manner that had nothing to do with sanitation.
You don't know that, and, frankly, nobody does.
quote:
Jesus knows the importance of good hygiene more than any of us.
Aside from your churched claims, what is your proof?
quote:
The Pharisees also had restrictions placed on the Sabbath, which were nothing more than worthless traditions.
Actually, those traditions were based on the entire 2nd-Temple Jewish community seriously and honestly coming to terms with how to implement the Law of Moses (and that was based on precedents from the Solomonic Temple period). The Torah doesn't tell people how to implement the commands.
I will have to point out that the Pharisees cared 1 million times more about the Biblical text than any Christian today (and perhaps more so than the vast majority of Jews today as well).
The Rabbinical traditions came from a community with integrity.
Sincere and genuine.
The real deal.
The real thing.
quote:
For example, they were not allowed to spit on dirt because it was considered tilling. If a lamp was not lit before the Sabbath began it had to remain out. And vice-versa.
The Pharisees were lunatics.
Show me the rabbinical judgments (quote them, and then quote the commentary)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by candle2, posted 01-22-2019 7:25 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by candle2, posted 01-23-2019 1:17 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
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