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Author Topic:   Violence in the Bible and the Quran
Faith
Member
Posts: 32899
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 46 of 76 (846718)
01-10-2019 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by ooh-child
01-10-2019 12:43 PM


Re: Biblical slavery
Sorry I meant economic necessity in the sense of having to become a slave to pay off a debt. That was the common reason in ancient Israel and it is not at all the same kind of "economic necessity" you are talking about. There was no violence involved in becoming a slave to pay off a debt they had no other way to pay, and Mosaic Law put term limits to their servitude. Not really comparable to the slavery in the American South. You may be right that they justified it on the basis of the Bible but there is really little actual comparison between the situations.

Slavery caused by military conquest could be called violent, but then the whole thing involving military conquest is violent.

And again this is really a different subject.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 32899
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 47 of 76 (846719)
01-10-2019 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Coragyps
01-10-2019 1:34 PM


Re: Biblical slavery
Yes, apparently there was a lot of such misuse of the Bible to justify slavery in the South. But it WAS a misuse. For one thing in the South it wasn't just slavery it was racism which had no part in the circumstances in ancient Israel. For another difference, people were stolen to be slaves in the South, often sold into slavery by their own people, and for yet another the Mosaic Law required the release of the slave after a given period of time.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 32899
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 48 of 76 (846721)
01-10-2019 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Stile
01-10-2019 12:03 PM


Your "facts" are not facts.
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 Message 49 by Stile, posted 01-11-2019 9:49 AM Faith has responded

    
Stile
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Posts: 3844
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 49 of 76 (846751)
01-11-2019 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Faith
01-10-2019 9:24 PM


Faith writes:

Your "facts" are not facts.

I do not understand how this statement makes any sense.

Are you talking about these facts:


  1. Both holy books contain descriptions of violence.
  2. Both religions have minor groups that use the descriptions of violence in the books as support for their violent actions.
  3. Both religions have majority groups that denounce the use of the books as support for any/all violent actions.

Because you've been instrumental in showing how each one is specifically a true fact.

Again, the words you string together simply do not correspond to the objective reality around you. Please try again.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 9:24 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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ooh-child
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Posts: 240
Joined: 04-10-2009
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 50 of 76 (846765)
01-11-2019 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Faith
01-10-2019 9:13 PM


Re: Biblical slavery
And again this is really a different subject.

Why? Check the title of this thread. Slavery as described biblically certainly reads as violent in many cases. And Southerners used these passages to justify their cruelty.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 9:13 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 01-11-2019 2:04 PM ooh-child has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32899
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 51 of 76 (846769)
01-11-2019 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by ooh-child
01-11-2019 1:31 PM


Re: Biblical slavery
Slavery is not the subject but if you insist on it: just as with the actual violence we are discussing, the historical biblical context does not give justification for it now, and Paul's recommendation to a Christian slave owner to release his Christian slave sets this new tone, which was the basis for Christian abolition of slavery in our time.

However, Muslims continue enslaving people to this day, although I have no idea if there is justification in their "holy" books as there is for murdering Jews and Christians and polytheists. And any other "infidel" who rejects Allah. Perhaps they don't need to bother with such niceties as a command from Allah to make slaves of people.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 56 by ringo, posted 01-12-2019 11:30 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32899
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 52 of 76 (846771)
01-11-2019 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Stile
01-11-2019 9:49 AM


You are SO confused, Or willfully obtuse. Your "facts" are not facts.
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Stile
Member
Posts: 3844
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 53 of 76 (846774)
01-11-2019 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Faith
01-11-2019 2:10 PM


Faith writes:

You are SO confused, Or willfully obtuse. Your "facts" are not facts.

Can you explain why or how?

Every time you say something doesn't exist or is wrong, I show you that the actual event does exist, or is right.

It seems all you have is empty words.
And I have is the ability to show parts of reality that prove these "facts" to be entirely factual.

I don't understand how any reasonable person could possibly interpret them in any other way.
But, please, expand your response and describe just how it is you interpret facts as "not facts."


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Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 32899
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 54 of 76 (846777)
01-11-2019 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Stile
01-11-2019 2:31 PM


I explained it all at least three times. If that isn't enough for you that's your fault. It's quite clear. Your "facts" are not facts.
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ooh-child
Member
Posts: 240
Joined: 04-10-2009
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 55 of 76 (846782)
01-11-2019 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Faith
01-11-2019 2:04 PM


Re: Biblical slavery
So, in your eyes, slavery isn't actually violent. Good to know. I guess when Jesus talked about beating disobedient slaves that wasn't violent?

https://biblehub.com/luke/12-47.htm

And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.


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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 17281
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 56 of 76 (846830)
01-12-2019 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Faith
01-11-2019 2:04 PM


Re: Biblical slavery
Faith writes:

... Paul's recommendation to a Christian slave owner to release his Christian slave sets this new tone....


To release his Christian slaves? Why wouldn't the Golden Rule apply to all slaves?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 58 by Faith, posted 01-12-2019 1:51 PM ringo has responded

  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5398
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 57 of 76 (846835)
01-12-2019 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by ringo
01-12-2019 11:30 AM


Re: Biblical slavery
As per the examples in Mosaic laws that gave completely different rules for Hebrew vs. Gentile slaves. Captives were permanent slaves, as I recall it.
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Faith
Member
Posts: 32899
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 58 of 76 (846836)
01-12-2019 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by ringo
01-12-2019 11:30 AM


Re: Biblical slavery
There was one slave involved, who was a Christian and with Paul at the time. Paul wrote to his owner, also a Christian whom he knew, to suggest that he set him free. It's there to be a model for whomever. They had both become Christians and Paul was a Christian leader.
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Faith
Member
Posts: 32899
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 59 of 76 (846837)
01-12-2019 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Coragyps
01-12-2019 1:12 PM


Re: Biblical slavery
I think the slave and his owner may both have been Greek, but I'd have to check. Slavery existed universally in those days.
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Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 32899
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 60 of 76 (846838)
01-12-2019 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by ooh-child
01-11-2019 3:09 PM


Re: Biblical slavery
You'd rather he shot him?
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