Jonah and the whale - It happened!

buzsaw,
You're doin' fine too; stick to your admirable discipline. Don't worry about post #28; those types of attacks are the invariable result of those who refuse to accept the Creator as he is.[This message has been edited by Skeptick, 02-06-2004]

Awesome points, Ken.
My guess is that God opened Sarah's womb even though it was deemed utterly impossible by man. Certainly he could have shut down a whale's normal bodily functions for a few days. But like you already stated, that would make for a hopeless position for the skeptics. (not to be confused with Skeptick).

Guys being chained to a rock and eagles munching on their liver every day, Coyote stealing the Frog Women's vaginas for his own use without harming the frogs, men being turned to stone by seeing snaky-tressed goddesses, bodies of giants being turned into the earth we live on, invisible pink unicorns sneezing the universe into existence last Thursday afternoon, ......I "get it," I just don't put much more literal credence in my examples of myth than in yours, Buz.

I wrote some additional commentary recently at another forum:1. Additional "pouch commentary":Here is what ANONYMOUS wrote:"Would there be breathable air in the stomach?Macloskie (1942) argued that the whale has to expel superfluous water from its mouth after receiving food. In the process a creature trapped in the mouth might reach the laryngeal pouch below the larynx. The pouch is big enough to hold a human who would, in addition, use the whale’s own air supply and have no worries about digestive juices. The Bible phrase "belly of the fish" should not count against this hypothesis since ancient peoples did not distinguish as many internal organs as we do today. In other words the entire front (=ventral surface) of a fish or whale might be referred to as the "belly"."Here is some additional commentary from myself:Was there an infection or disease in regards to the pouch flap? Was the congential birth defect in pouch the puch flap opening? Did God assist in opening the pouch flap? We must remember that there is a distinct possibility the whale was dying since vomiting up food is one sympton of dying whale. This may have been a unhealthy whale. Did Jonah have a knife to cut it open?2. Regarding other matters:God protected the men who were thrown into the blazing furnace in the book of Daniel. Therefore, one could conclude that if there were stomach acidity problems or air problems or other problems God could intervene (God having whale open its mouth more often, etc etc). But again, I am not at all sure God would have had to intervene. The story of Jonah is not a NFL game where there is play by play observation and commentary. Nor is there instant reply. In short, details were not provided.

Hi,Could I divert your attention to the topic?Do you have any intention of supoprting your claim that 'It happened'?You are not really moving the debate forward, this continuual posting of chatter from other websites is intensely boring.Brian.

If you want to say that Jonah survived because of a miracle of God, I think I'll grant you that as being OK. But that does not seem to be the case.If your trying to sell that, outside of a Godly miracle, someone can survive as such, then I think your going to have a might hard sell. I don't think even small children would buy it.Most of all, how is taking the story as anything but a miracle of God, build support for the Bible.Moose

To minnemooseus (the previous poster to the string):It is a time honored tradition in debate that he who asserts must prove. You asserted that a man could not survive in a whale. You never addressed the points in the gentleman's essay nor did you address my commentary which gives further support that a man may be able to survive in a whale for the time indicated in the essay nor did you address the historical support I gave for the Book of Jonah which would lend credence that Jonah specifically survived in a sea creature for the time given by the book of Jonah. You took a shortcut and like many shortcuts you paid a price for it.Sincerely,Ken<[This message has been edited by kendemyer, 02-20-2004]

You have also asserted that 'it happened' , yet you have not provided a single shred of evidence that 'it happened'. Your silence is only slightly less embarrassing than your ignorance.Brian.

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You asserted that a man could not survive in a whale.

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OK - For the sake of this discussion, I'll concede that a man could survive in a whale (for 3 days wasn't it), without the intervention of a miracle of God. I really don't care, one way or the other.BUT, I would think that the essence of the Jonah and the whale story, is that God laid a miracle on Jonah. Science can accept that man exists, whales exist, and that a whale could have swallowed a man. As far as I'm concerned, it is not sciences business to either confirm or deny a miracle by God, that Jonah survived this event.YOU sure seem to be the one removing God from the equation. YOU sure seem to be the one who is denying a miracle by God, by trying to support the whale story as a plausible scientific reality.This action, coming from someone of your beliefs, makes no sense to me.MoosePs: Please use the little reply button at the base of the individual message, if you are replying to that message. Just like I am here.{Edited to add the "ps", which I had ommited when I did the copy from the Microcoft Word document - Moose}[This message has been edited by minnemooseus, 02-08-2004]

And then there is Jonah. He provides an example of the storms sent by the unconscious and their consequent archetypal reconstellation in the whale when prophetic calling is evaded (Jonah 1-2). Jeremiah had similarly tried to evade his initial calling, protesting to God that he was only a boy (Jeremiah 1:6). Isaiah’s initial excuse was his unworthiness being a man of unclean lips (Isaiah 6:5). And Moses in prophetic reluctance protested disability, complaining: I have never been eloquent ... I am slow of speech and slow of tongue (Exodus 4:10).

Dear Readers:I posted replies to the string giving science, historical and philosophical/theological reasons why Jonah could have survived in a sea creature. I plan on doing more research and getting additional resources. My position is that it did happened and how much divine intervention was given I do not know.Sincerely,Ken[This message has been edited by kendemyer, 02-20-2004]

Hi, Let me see, you are positive that this happened yet you admit that you haven't even fully researched this?This kind of reminds me of a joke I heard about what the difference is between a scientist and a fundamentalist Christian. The scientist looks at the evidence and then comes to a conclusion, the fundy has his conclusion and then goes looking for evidence. You may never arrive at the truth Ken if you take the fundy approach.Good luck anyway.Brian.

Dear Brian:We already had the discussion regarding moral certainty and absolute certainty. Plus I did give historical support for the Jonah account. In addition, there have been plenty of scientists both past and present who are or have been Christians. We must also remember that the scientific method was not originated by some individual during the skeptical period of Greek philosophy but was founded by Francis Bacon who believed in the resurrrection. See Science and Christianity at http://www.ldolphin.org/bumbulis/[This message has been edited by kendemyer, 02-20-2004]

I think, that if the "Jonah and the Whale" is invoked as a miracle by God, science has no argument against it.If no miracle in invoked, what's the point of the story being in the Bible?I say, let it be a Godly miracle, and lay this topic to rest.Moose

Hi Moose,I totally agree.Ken is trying to find a natural explanation for a miraculous event, it looks like a lack of faith from where I am sitting.But this has been an incredibly boring topic, Ken's persistent refusal to answer people's replies makes me wonder what the point of the thread actually was.Brian.