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Author Topic:   IS THERE A TRUE CHURCH IN THE WORLD TODAY?
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 6 of 53 (83372)
02-05-2004 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Mammuthus
02-05-2004 4:14 AM


It's Belief
You're missing Stephen's point.
And if your myth does not exist, wishing that he does has no influence on that reality either. You have no way of testing or falsifying that he or Vishnu or a giant sentient toilet bowl cleaner are the omnipotent power in the universe. I see no reason to subscribe to such beliefs.
We are not wishing that he does, he has proved himself to us personally because we opened our minds to him. You prove Stephens point about the Bible with that response.
Since I don't beleive in god..why would I believe I am one?
His point is, you think that you decide what reality is, and therefore what you decide - goes. If you close yourself off to God then you don't get a response from him. Then, you lead life on YOUR terms being the boss or god of it.
You say there is no point to asking God because he doesn't exist. Jesus said that you must first believe so your point is at best - a poor one.
If you cannot put your own righteoussness away (own opinion) and ask AND believe, then I can confidently tell you that you will never be heard by God if you don't do this. A desperate prayer or self - righteouss prayer would be:
"God, why don't you do this why don't you do that, If you exist prove it to me - I want a scientific thesis and want it my own way, why didn't you answer my prayers for help"
Those prayers do not work, only a believing prayer works.
If you gave up your own righteoussnes and BELIEVE then you WILL recieve, but you have admitted the unbelief. Which I'm afraid - as Stephen said, is entirely explained in the Bible. Your position is explained in the Bible - easily.
" If they don't believe Moses, they wont believe one rose from the dead "
You seem to have no concept of what faith is.
P.S. Sorry if I appear robust, but getting this point about belief, across to people, is harder than dancing on a pinheaded platform in a blackhole.
[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 02-05-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Mammuthus, posted 02-05-2004 4:14 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Mammuthus, posted 02-09-2004 9:00 AM mike the wiz has replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 10 of 53 (84672)
02-09-2004 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Mammuthus
02-09-2004 9:00 AM


Re: It's Belief
Got news for ya...everybody decides for themselves what reality is whether they are religious or not.
So I wanted my brother to die because I decide reality?
However, unlike what you claim for a god, I am every minute of every day subject to events and circumstances which I cannot control..
However, you do have the ability to make decisions that affect your actions. You can for example choose to rob a bank and blow the dough, or work for your fortune and give it to the poor.
Ah, the old my magic stick allows me to see the things you can't see arguement?
Pardon?
have no sense of science, literature, or history.
What has this got to do with belief? (scratches head).
think it is harder for you to understand those of us without faith than it is for me to understand irrational belief
If my prayers are answered when I believe how am I irrational?
Actually I do understand hard of heart self-righteous unbelievers. Now we've got that out of our systems maybe we can talk.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Mammuthus, posted 02-09-2004 9:00 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Mammuthus, posted 02-09-2004 10:21 AM mike the wiz has replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 12 of 53 (84689)
02-09-2004 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Mammuthus
02-09-2004 10:21 AM


That you make this statement shows that you do not and that you are not particularly interested in divesting yourself of your prejudice.
Though what I said seemed harsh it comes from a biblical doctrine. I am not prejudice, and/or no more than you are towards me. You have also made assumptions about me which is why I said pardon?
The hard of heart - those who God knows are unbelievers ( Christ made parables for these people )
Self -Righteouss - Though it sounds harsh (like an insult) it infact simply means what I was talking about - leaning on our own interpretation of life, and being the boss of it, saying things like "why did you do this that and the other God" and making your own laws to follow. So, I only say this with knowledge of what it means (filthy rags) etc.
We have different beliefs yet your brother is dead in both of them.
That's right, we both seem able to discern reality. But we don't decide it, as if I did he would still be alive.
Without having a good educational background you will never be able to distinguish completely irrational belief based on lies about the histories of the belief system you adhere to
Who says I have no educational background?
Though you rightly say "belief system" I independently came to conclusions without any religious input. So - when I believed, God then kind of proved himself to me. I don't think this is irrational though, because I wasn't seeing what I wanted to see, sometimes with logic, one must deduce that what is happening seems to be the truth. YET I understand if this is NOT scientific proof, though I have not came to my conclusions irrationally.
Good things happen to me and I don't pray. Bad things happen and I don't pray. Good things happen to you when you pray. Bad things happen to you when you pray. But more importantly, I find it more irrational to base one's life on a literal interpretation of a book written by men
You are confusing things. I know good and bad things happen to us both. However, when you pray for a specific thing and recieve it - well, what would you conclude Mammuthus?
I do not base my life on Creationism, I base my life on God.
I find the religious to be even more arbitrary and variable in their beliefs than non-believers.
I apologize if I seemed a bit harsh on the unbeliever, I love unbelievers probably more than believers in some cases. I am not religious and all of my relatives claim they are unbelievers - so, I live with them and understand them yet in all the gap between them and me is vast.
[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 02-09-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Mammuthus, posted 02-09-2004 10:21 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Mammuthus, posted 02-09-2004 11:34 AM mike the wiz has replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 14 of 53 (84710)
02-09-2004 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Mammuthus
02-09-2004 11:34 AM


Which brings us back to my not believing or claiming I am god. I just see no reason personally to believe that some extraneous supernatural force is required to explain the randomness of life. You apparently do.
Okay, fair enough Mammuthus - I will concede that you are not claiming to be God.
You have been on the site long enough now to watch other creationists who pop onto the site. You see the same litany of scientific misconceptions, mischaracterizations, and falsehoods over and over again.
Correct. I know that Creationism is not all science like the ToE. Infact I do see Creationists say some silly things. The fact is as long as I don't say those things I'm happy - as I think personally - old earth - young earth - evolution - Neither bothers me, infact if there's another bizarre way Creation came about then that wouldn't bother me either. I am creationist as in, I believe in Creation - How that Creation came about doesn't bother me much.
You have made a crucial step in segregating you faith from methodological naturalism i.e. science. They will never overlap. And a mature relgious belief should not result in a conflict between the two. That you are recognizing this is very good.
Well, I'm glad you apreciate that. Yes, I don't really see the Bible as a science book anymore and I don't really argue against science at all.
I prayed and sometimes what I wished for happened and sometimes not. It is no different for me now. If I wish for something I have a chance that it will happen and a chance it won't. Like flipping a coin.
I see what you are saying but some things are a bit spookier. If you ask for a very specific sequence of events and they happen independent of your own input, what would you conclude Mammuthus?
As to basing life on creationism, I don't think I am accusing you of that. But if you base your entire belief on the concepts that science can either support or refute your faith (as most creationists do) then you will do justice to neither.
To be honest I now know that difference, infact if I wake up tomorrow and support evolution I wouldn't feel any different from the previous day concerning my belief in God. But in this topic I am eager to get you to pray because I think it is about belief and I think it can be proven to you personally but maybe not scientifically.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Mammuthus, posted 02-09-2004 11:34 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Mammuthus, posted 02-09-2004 12:12 PM mike the wiz has not replied

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