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Author | Topic: Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
All that "evidence" of yours is bogus revisionist crap.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: I admit that your lies are abundant, but they aren’t evidence of God. Ranting and raving against the truth simply proves your irrationality.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Your "evidence" comes from unbelieving "scholars" who had a bias against the supernatural. That makes it all revisionist crap to be thrown in the trash. The Bible as traditionally understood is correct. Moses wrote and oversaw the writing of the Torah/Pentateuch and there was no gap of hundreds of years between its events and the writing since he was there during it all. You are the liar and the irrational ranter, both.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Ad hominem attacks do nothing to disprove the facts. It’s odd though that you think that the Bible is the creation of unbelieving "scholars" who had a bias against the supernatural. But it’s hardly the first time you’ve made claims like that.
quote: If we throw the Book of Exodus in the trash as revisionist crap, where does that leave your case? Even when we talk about the historical and archaeological evidence you are going to need more than ad hominem to justify your claims.
quote: Except when you don’t like it, as we saw in the case of God hardening the Pharaoh’s heart - also in Exodus.
quote: According to traditions of unknown origin which are hardly sufficient to answer the internal evidence of the books themselves.
quote: Well that’s another lie and a pretty irrational one since everyone can read your posts and see it’s a lie. A bit rant-ish too.
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
tangle writes: My argument (today, anyway ) is that belief is useful to humanity. Even if humans collectively and consensually decided that it all was made-up, they would still do well to believe in something and someone greater than humanity is currently capable of being. It's like Voltaire said: If God did not exist, it would be necessary to make one up.
What is the point of making stuff up that you know to be made up? What would I do with my made up god? Get on my knees and worship it? That's bonkers.(...)What you're essentially asking us to do is go back to our childhood and imagine Father Christmas is real and discuss him as though he was. To us that is just bloody silly. We've grown up. The relationship you guys talk of is like the relationship some children have with their imaginary friend. It seems real to them but the adults know they'll grow out of it. You said it better elsewhere.
Tangle writes: I'm not ready to trash the book. You do have a point that our relationship is with God in our head...but I would add the heart. You did get me thinking when you stated that I have cognitive dissonance regarding helping people. If God is real and actual (which I have believed for a long while) then maybe (perhaps) He wants there to be no evidence. Perhaps He wants people to have faith....I'm just working out how this can be beneficial to society rather than your default argument to dump religion globally.
Can I suggest that you abandon all attempts to reconcile the utter bollox written in that bloody book and just get on with loving your god? Maybe have a quiet word with GDR. Your relationship is with the thing in your head that you call God not the fiction in the book. tangle, to GDR writes: My point is that we shouldn't teach future generations not to believe. You seem to think it harms them. I'm arguing that it(belief) does not. I realize it wouldn't change your mind, you'd simply invent a solution. But it would influence future generation's minds. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Percy writes: I get that Percy, but my point is that it is the same argument whether you talk about a regression of gods or processes. It's still turtles all the way down.
It would have been far more appropriate for you to repeat your reply to Tangle in your previous message, that it's a given you don't understand this. A regression involves time and is a series of "befores" - if there is no time there can be no regression. Percy writes: I have dealt with that numerous times and yes, suffering is a difficult question for a Christian to answer. I'll repeat what I've said before. Firstly a loving compassionate god is a far better explanation for why there are creatures who are able to love altruistically and minimize suffering than are blind processes. I think that we have agreed that deep down people realize that the golden rule should be foundational to humanity whether they actually live it out or not. "Why" is not a science question unless you mean it in the sense of, "What caused this to happen?" If you do mean it in this latter sense then observational evidence has spawned several promising theories. But if you do actually mean "why" then that places you on exceptionally weak ground, since you can't answer any of the "why" questions for religion, such as why a loving and compassionate God allows innocent babies to suffer and die. Concerning the suffering caused by humans is concerned, and you've heard a thousand times. you can't have the ability to choose to love sacrificially if you can't choose to love the self even to the detriment of others. Entropy seems to be a necessity for a world with onlty one direction of time which results in natural disasters. Also from from a Christian stand point, this isn't the end and that with new creation there will a world where the wolf lies down with the lamb and there is no suffering.
Percy writes: I believe with only subjective evidence that we are an emergent property within a much greater reality. For us time flows in only one direction but in the greater reality of which we are only 4.5% time and space are infinite. You haven't actually described any evidence. My evidence that the Big Bang is real is that antenna and satellite probes detect electromagnetic radiation of just the right temperature required by theory. You can read all about the evidence for the cosmic microwave background radiation at Wikipedia or at a huge number of other sources on the Internet. Please provide some equivalently hard evidence that your God is real. Or answer any of a number of other questions you've avoided, such as does your God exist within time or outside time, and what is your evidence? I have no evidence for that but it forms a way of understanding things which fits with both my Christian understanding as well as with my ultra minimal understanding of relativity and QM.
Percy writes: No I didn't. I meant it is the same sense as I would use the term Christian, atheist, secular humanist etc.
Let us not play games. You used the word "materialist" in a pejorative manner, as if materialists and spiritualists were at odds with spiritualists having the superior viewpoint. I replied that you are as much a materialist as everyone else, in other words, that we are all, by necessity, materialists because we live in the real world.Percy writes: Even Paul wrote that we can see God in the physical world. IMHO it only makes sense it learn from all the sources that we have, whether it be holy books, philosophy or science. Ultimately the absolute truth has to have all of this in harmony. But the more fundamental question, and another one that you've avoided thus far, is why you're trying to tie your immaterial spiritual beliefs to evidence from the material world. I haven't had a lot of time to deal with EvC lately and the next couple of weeks is going to be the same. Sorry if I don't get back to everyone.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: My argument (today, anyway) is that belief is useful to humanity. Well that assertion is deserving of its own thread. I'm not sure, but I accept generally that people appear to have a need for something like purpose. If you start a thread I'll join in.
You do have a point that our relationship is with God in our head...but I would add the heart. I suspect you mean that metaphorically but you shouldn't mix up heads and hearts like they're different things. You surely know that everything you know and feel happens in your head.
If God is real and actual (which I have believed for a long while) then maybe (perhaps) He wants there to be no evidence. Perhaps He wants people to have faith....I'm just working out how this can be beneficial to society rather than your default argument to dump religion globally. It makes no sense to want to leave no evidence but send someone to earth to give all these messages and perform all sorts of circus tricks while he's here. It really is time to stop trying the reconcile ancient mythology with the voices in your head that you think is your god. If you think the voice is your god, why not just talk to him? The religion stuff is bunk and I think you're beginning to see that.
My point is that we shouldn't teach future generations not to believe. You seem to think it harms them. I'm arguing that it(belief) does not. Ok, so let's talk that one through.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Moses was there during the creation? In the Garden of Eden? During the Flood? At the Tower of Babel? At Sodom and Gomorrah? Moses wrote and oversaw the writing of the Torah/Pentateuch and there was no gap of hundreds of years between its events and the writing since he was there during it all.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Sigh. We were talking about the miracles that were given as evidence for God. Sigh.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
You point to the creation as evidence for God. You point to the Flood as evidence for God. You claimed that Moses was there for all of the Torah/Pentateuch and I pointed out that you were wrong. We were talking about the miracles that were given as evidence for God.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Disbelief in the supernatural is hardly a mere ad hominem in relation to "scholars" working on a book known for its supernatural content. It is a flat-out disqualification for the job.
The "internal evidence" you tout so highly is nothing but the subjective imaginings of the bogus "scholars." The rest of your stuff doesn't deserve an answer. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I have never pointed to the Creation or to the Flood as evidence for God that I know of. It is the miracles He performed in the leading of His people that are intended as the evidence.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3
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quote: Of course it is ad hominem since it is directed against the people and not against their arguments. Moreover you have yet to provide any reason to believe that it is true or even relevant. For instance a scholar’s views on the supernatural have no bearing on the absence of useful historical markers in the text of Exodus.
quote: And that is a lie.
quote: And there we see your usual hate of the truth.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Truly Leftists and atheists must be missing some essential part of the brain.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
How - and more important why - would they have happened without God? I have never pointed to the Creation or to the Flood as evidence for God that I know of.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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