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Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1366 of 1677 (847004)
01-15-2019 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1359 by Tangle
01-14-2019 10:26 AM


Re: Suffering with a loving God
tangle writes:
If he can make heaven without evil there's absolutely no need to have it here.
Perhaps somewhere along the line someone freely chose it. You cant have free will in a house with all inside and no outside.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1359 by Tangle, posted 01-14-2019 10:26 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1367 by Stile, posted 01-15-2019 9:44 AM Phat has replied
 Message 1374 by Tangle, posted 01-15-2019 11:28 AM Phat has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 1367 of 1677 (847005)
01-15-2019 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1366 by Phat
01-15-2019 9:31 AM


Re: Suffering with a loving God
Phat writes:
You cant have free will in a house with all inside and no outside.
Why not?
Why can't I freely choose to use the top floor bathroom or the basement one?
Why can't I freely choose to get closer and (possibly) love the woman in the family room while I stay away from the ones I don't like so much in the foyer?
Why can't I freely choose to build electronics in the den vs. swimming in the indoor pool?
Are you saying that because I can't choose to go outside I can't make any decisions at all? How... unimaginative.
That, seems to me, is like saying because I can't choose to breathe underwater then I can't make any decisions at all. But... we do make plenty of decisions without being able to breathe underwater... so this is obviously not true.
And if we can keep free-will, and especially the free-will to choose good, without requiring all-possible evil decisions... why not do that?
What possible connection is there between some terrible person choosing to punch someone else in the face to my choice to freely decide to love my wife over other women at the bar?
If I was physically unable to decide to punch people in the face, I would still have the ability to freely choose to love my wife over the other women at the bar.
Do you seriously not see this separation?
"All-evil" is not required in order to make good, meaningful decisions.
Besides - we already don't have access to all-evil. I can't decide to suddenly wipe out half-the-planet by the snap of my fingers. Such power is not possible for us. Does that mean we don't have free-will? Of course not. That's just silly.
This idea of "evil is required to have good!" is flatly false. It really shows nothing more than a lack of imagination.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1366 by Phat, posted 01-15-2019 9:31 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1368 by Phat, posted 01-15-2019 10:05 AM Stile has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1368 of 1677 (847006)
01-15-2019 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1367 by Stile
01-15-2019 9:44 AM


Re: Suffering with a loving God
My implication was that Heaven is not a democracy. In response to Tangle. You dont really expect Him to allow everyone into heaven and give them the right to ignore Him now do you?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1367 by Stile, posted 01-15-2019 9:44 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1369 by Stile, posted 01-15-2019 10:09 AM Phat has replied
 Message 1370 by AZPaul3, posted 01-15-2019 10:10 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 1369 of 1677 (847007)
01-15-2019 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1368 by Phat
01-15-2019 10:05 AM


Re: Suffering with a loving God
Phat writes:
You don't really expect Him to allow everyone into heaven and give them the right to ignore Him now do you?
I don't really "expect" anything of a God (other than to be more-powerful or otherwise "better" than humans.)
But, in answer as to if it's possible or not:
Why not?
I would.
Are you saying that I have more self-esteem than God?
Edited by Stile, : Typo here, typo there, everywhere a typo!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1368 by Phat, posted 01-15-2019 10:05 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1371 by Phat, posted 01-15-2019 10:22 AM Stile has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1370 of 1677 (847008)
01-15-2019 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1368 by Phat
01-15-2019 10:05 AM


Re: Suffering with a loving God
You dont really expect Him to allow everyone into heaven and give them the right to ignore Him now do you?
Well, actually ... yes.
An infinitely loving god would not hesitate to do so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1368 by Phat, posted 01-15-2019 10:05 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1371 of 1677 (847009)
01-15-2019 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1369 by Stile
01-15-2019 10:09 AM


Re: Suffering with a loving God
You can see how the dogma developed. The whole idea of a rebellion in heaven was symbolic yet apt. Just look at our current squabbles in government by a two party system. By definition, Gods Spirit would be the ruling faction, shared by all. If Heaven was meant to be a democracy, Lucidfer could have stayed there and been the opposing party! ...but this is all silly and hypothetical.
I figured you guys would challenge the autonomy of a Deity. Cant you accept the fact that a Deity would know more about how things must be than any created angels or humans? (The counter-argument would assert that humans created the concept of the deity and could therefore also make up the parameters.)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1369 by Stile, posted 01-15-2019 10:09 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1372 by Stile, posted 01-15-2019 10:29 AM Phat has replied
 Message 1373 by ringo, posted 01-15-2019 11:25 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 1372 of 1677 (847010)
01-15-2019 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1371 by Phat
01-15-2019 10:22 AM


Re: Suffering with a loving God
Phat writes:
Cant you accept the fact that a Deity would know more about how things must be than any created angels or humans?
Of course.
I don't see how this is in conflict with a God who has enough self-esteem to not care if some people ignore Him?
If God creates "the best" place... why must He also only allow those who fan-boy all over Him?
Why can't God create "the best" place as well as not caring if some people ignore Him? - That's what I would do.
(The counter-argument would assert that humans created the concept of the deity and could therefore also make up the parameters.)
This is not the counter-argument.
The counter-argument is that a God who's self-esteem is below that of a high school rookie doesn't seem like much of a God.
Edited by Stile, : More typos are proof that I am not God...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1371 by Phat, posted 01-15-2019 10:22 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1391 by Phat, posted 01-17-2019 6:55 PM Stile has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1373 of 1677 (847012)
01-15-2019 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1371 by Phat
01-15-2019 10:22 AM


Re: Suffering with a loving God
Phat writes:
I figured you guys would challenge the autonomy of a Deity.
You're the one who's challenging the autonomy of the Deity by suggesting that He would have trouble handling the "Satan" character.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1371 by Phat, posted 01-15-2019 10:22 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1374 of 1677 (847013)
01-15-2019 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1366 by Phat
01-15-2019 9:31 AM


Re: Suffering with a loving God
Phat writes:
Perhaps somewhere along the line someone freely chose it. You cant have free will in a house with all inside and no outside.
I don't remember chosing free will, do you? Or are you saying that some random egit 100,000 years ago chose it so we all have to have it?
Seems a pretty dumb thing to do; choose the freedom to nick stuff from shops instead of perfect happiness and lack of suffering forever. Seem likely to you?
Is there free will in heaven?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1366 by Phat, posted 01-15-2019 9:31 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1375 by Phat, posted 01-15-2019 12:27 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1375 of 1677 (847014)
01-15-2019 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1374 by Tangle
01-15-2019 11:28 AM


Re: Suffering with a loving God
You guys won this one again! I just had a nap and a dream. I am losing touch with "the truth"! I need to surrender in order to get it back or i will end up lost and bitter like Faith. And whats really humbling is that God is using atheists to correct me!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1374 by Tangle, posted 01-15-2019 11:28 AM Tangle has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1376 of 1677 (847027)
01-15-2019 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1332 by Percy
01-12-2019 9:41 AM


I have a couple of minutes and I would like to go off on a bit of a tangent.
I am not at home and I can not get the usual brackets etc on to work on this foreign language computer. I can not get anything but the basic letters.
AdminPhat writes:
I'll help.
percy writes:
A regression involves time and is a series of "befores" - if there is no time there can be no regression.
I actually did get that the first time and I agree. My point was that if you are going to invoke that rule nor a non-theistic position then a theist should be able to invoke the same. If it is not turtles all the way down for the non-theistic position then it is the same for the theistic position.
Also, I would like to bring up Paleys argument about the evolution of the eye. I accept the evolutionary answer that the eye could evolve with a series of mutations rather than requiring the whole eye to be complete from day one.
It seems to me however that we should look at that more deeply. If evolution is a mindless process that has resulted in the creatures we have today, and that it all started without any cellular life, how would a blind process know that the sense of vision was something that existed at all in order to begin the evolutionary process that resulted in vision being a reality? The same is true for the evolutionary processes for any of our senses.
Also, you said in another post when I mentioned the observer effect that even though there was no one there to measure or observe anything that the rocks etc of our world would still exist. How do you know that or is it simply something you believe. If you know it then how do you know it?
There is the age-old question that if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it does it still make a sound. Assuming that there is no conscious life around I would say no it does not. It is not a sound until it is perceived as sound. It is only an increased movement of airwaves. Possibly it is the same for observing rocks.
Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed quotes
Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1332 by Percy, posted 01-12-2019 9:41 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1378 by AZPaul3, posted 01-15-2019 10:09 PM GDR has replied
 Message 1381 by Percy, posted 01-16-2019 7:47 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1377 of 1677 (847028)
01-15-2019 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1363 by Percy
01-14-2019 6:25 PM


Re: Suffering with a loving God
Again it is primarily only the letters that correspond with what is on the keyboard on this computer, so I am limited to pretty much that.
Percy writes:
My mother grew up on a farm not too distant from Calgary.
Mine did too except it was a ranch in the Irricana area just NE of Calgary.
Percy writes:
But you can't really believe this since it makes no sense to alleviate any suffering in this world if all will be made right in the next.
Why not? If I am right that there is a next world where there will be perfect justice it makes perfect sense to do our best to make that a reality in the present. Jesus told us to pray thy kingdom come on Earth as in Heaven.
Percy writes:
Are you maybe thinking more of your own reward?
That is not my motive. It is my belief, which is also scriptural, is that it is not about what we do but about how our hearts desire that we live our lives. Do we truly believe that sacrificial love is what we desire or we all about the self? We have all lived in different circumstances and some are able to respond to their hearts belief in sacrificial love more than others. As Jesus said. to whom much is given much is expected.
Percy writes:
Or are you maybe just filling in a religious explanation for the normal human impulse to relieve suffering?
That is a bit of a chicken and egg question. As a Christian, I go with the impulse coming from God whereas an atheist would go with your statement. It is a philosophical question and our answers are all subjective.
Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed quotes

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1363 by Percy, posted 01-14-2019 6:25 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1382 by Percy, posted 01-16-2019 9:47 AM GDR has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1378 of 1677 (847029)
01-15-2019 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1376 by GDR
01-15-2019 8:50 PM


If evolution is a mindless process that has resulted in the creatures we have today, and that it all started without any cellular life, how would a blind process know that the sense of vision was something that existed at all in order to begin the evolutionary process that resulted in vision being a reality.
GDR, really. I think you actually already know.
Light from our star is energy. Powerful energy. Photons do strange and wonderful things to chemistry. Early microbes were not confined to the dark. Any strange and wonderful things that happened to even a small portion of a microbe's chemistry that could be used as a tripwire for when whatever kind of light was present or not, is just sitting there asking, sorta, to be stumbled and bumbled into something useful ... like a light detector. Modification and reproduction do the rest. Octopus eyes. The best on the planet.
And the vast majority of the various convergent evolutionary paths of Earth eyes respond most effectively to the same rather narrow range of light frequencies. Just so happens that narrow range corresponds directly to the frequencies of our star's most prolific electromagnetic outputs.
No majik necessary. Just chemistry.
Also you said in another post when I mentioned the observer effect that even though there was no one there to measure or observe anything that the rocks etc of our world would still exist. How do you know that or is it simply something you believe. If you know it then how do you know it.
If I understand you right the observer effect, as you call it, is part of the Copenhagen interpretation of Quantum Mechanics. An observer collapses the wave function of a superposition. The part most folks miss, thank you pop-culture science news, is that ANY macro object (a dust mote) interacting with any particle is an "observer" thus collapsing the function.
There is the age old question that if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it does it still make a sound. Assuming that there is no conscious life around I would say no it does not. It is not a sound until it is perceived as sound. It is only an increased movement of air waves. Possibly it is the same for observing rocks.
Sorry. Yes there is a sound, whether it is perceived or not. The vibrating waves of air molecules still vibrate at the same frequencies, travel the same paths and echo off the same hills whether any equipment is there to observe them or not. The physical operations are the same. For a falling tree in a forest it is physically impossible for the vibrations to not be produced and propagate. Saying this is not "sound" because it is not "heard" is a semantical absurdity with a badly forced philosophical goal.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1376 by GDR, posted 01-15-2019 8:50 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1379 by GDR, posted 01-15-2019 11:14 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1379 of 1677 (847030)
01-15-2019 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1378 by AZPaul3
01-15-2019 10:09 PM


AZPaul3 writes:
GDR, really. I think you actually already know.
Light from our star is energy. Powerful energy. Photons do strange and wonderful things to chemistry. Early microbes were not confined to the dark. Any strange and wonderful things that happened to even a small portion of a microbe's chemistry that could be used as a tripwire for when whatever kind of light was present or not, is just sitting there asking, sorta, to be stumbled and bumbled into something useful ... like a light detector. Modification and reproduction do the rest. Octopus eyes. The best on the planet.
And the vast majority of the various convergent evolutionary paths of Earth eyes respond most effectively to the same rather narrow range of light frequencies. Just so happens that narrow range corresponds directly to the frequencies of our star's most prolific electromagnetic outputs.
No majik necessary. Just chemistry.
Well I wish that I had the knowledge to already know that. It offers an explanation but it does strike me that we had to have exactly right chemistry available and the light had to trigger something that caused light to evolve in a way that produced vision without any knowledge of what vision is. Maybe you are right but it does seem to me that allowing for a pre-existing intelligence is actually a simpler answer.
BTW, I am not arguing for an intelligence that necessarily intervenes in the process as I would accept the idea of an intelligence that set the tripwire, in the beginning, and evolution evolved naturally.
AZPaul3 writes:
If I understand you right the observer effect, as you call it, is part of the Copenhagen interpretation of Quantum Mechanics. An observer collapses the wave function of a superposition. The part most folks miss, thank you pop-culture science news, is that ANY macro object (a dust mote) interacting with any particle is an "observer" thus collapsing the function.
I know that with my very limited knowledge I am on shaky ground here but you have to assume that the dust mote exists if it is not observed. In reality, we have no way of knowing any of this as we are not observing or measuring it.
how do we know?
AZPaul3 writes:
Sorry. Yes there is a sound, whether it is perceived or not. The vibrating waves of air molecules still vibrate at the same frequencies, travel the same paths and echo off the same hills whether any equipment is there to observe them or not. The physical operations are the same. For a falling tree in a forest, it is physically impossible for the vibrations to not be produced and propagate. Saying this is not "sound" because it is not "heard" is a semantical absurdity.
I guess it is semantics but are vibrating waves of air molecules a sound prior to impacting an eardrum or measuring device. For that matter, if there is no conscious observer does the tree even exist in the first place?
Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.
Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.
Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1378 by AZPaul3, posted 01-15-2019 10:09 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1380 by Tangle, posted 01-16-2019 3:32 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 1383 by Stile, posted 01-16-2019 9:49 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 1385 by AZPaul3, posted 01-16-2019 10:13 AM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1380 of 1677 (847033)
01-16-2019 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1379 by GDR
01-15-2019 11:14 PM


GDR writes:
BTW, I am not arguing for an intelligence that necessarily intervenes in the process as I would accept the idea of an intelligence that set the tripwire, in the beginning, and evolution evolved naturally.
And it has been pointed out to you multiple times that evolution can not be the 'mindless process' you (and science) say it is and still have a determinate outcome (ie us).
No matter how hard you and ICANT try, you can't jemmy scientific discover into your beliefs - if for no other reason than you don't actually understand the science you talk about.
And why do you even try?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1379 by GDR, posted 01-15-2019 11:14 PM GDR has not replied

  
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