Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith

I feel certain that any one of us could have passed a psychological assessment---had it not be based on the claims we experienced that night.But for the sake of a sane argument, I won't say that you are wrong. All I know is that I was reasonably fooled quite convincingly.Add By Edit: This is where Faith and I likely would part company regarding our beliefs. She would argue that since demons are mentioned in the Bible there is no reason to think that they are not real.I would likely commit the unpardonable sin of questioning the Bible. But I won't take the position that most of you take and doubt it. Nor would I doubt that Jesus is alive and that God is real.We all choose where to take our stand. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

all my line of questioning was leading towards is what behavior was expected in this hypothetical Heaven we are talking about. I maintain that there is a certain protocol...which is why the dogma has satan being cast from heaven already. Of course, even that is up for discussion...Job has him walking to and fro elsewhere..(Job 1:7" From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.").but he does show up for the board meetings. For the purpose of my question, what are the acceptable forms of behavior in Heaven? Can we do our own thing (freewill in heaven?) or...more likely...do we play by club rules...willingly?

Yes, and that is what keeps alive my belief that I experienced something paranormal. There were no hidden microphones or tape recorders. My friends were not on drugs nor was I. They did not trick me...I can read a person whom I know and determine that. So like Faith says, where did the otherworldly sound of a chorus of voices...clearly heard by me...come from?

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about
Wiki calls it Glossolalia. I had it once--its a random pattern of jibberish that becomes known by the user and repeated in response to what is taught in the religion. Supposedly only angels know it. I'm sure there is a biological linguistic explanation---I wouldn't worry about it too much. The demons, on the other hand...I wouldn't fear them if one is a believer, but realize that...like a common cold...they can make you uncomfortable...especially if the sin they feed is one you like.

Because you assume that God need not be in charge. The whole point of the club is to surrender to Him...Or are you arguing for eternal free will without the builder's interference?

Let me explain the story more fully. Jason(the victim of the oppression perhaps), Mike (my roomie and the one whose Mom was charismatic) and Eddie(who was with them) were at a youth event. They were hanging out together and, at this time, were not prone to known episodes of either mental illness or practical jokes. In fact, having observed the three young men's behavior both before and after the event, I saw no evidence in their character that they had blatantly lied to me, made anything up, or had hidden voiceboxes.
(In fact, they would also state to this day that what they had experienced was unexplainable, though they likely would say it was demonic) In addition to that, the circumstances surrounding the event were more than normally bizarre. To this day I have never experienced any (other) unknown event with that power! It was close to 1 am. The buildings residents were sound asleep, as was I. I woke up suddenly with a strange urge to pray. So I reluctantly did, even though I was groggy and knew not what to pray about....as I was praying, in the other part of the house suddenly there were shouts. loud...I mean LOUD! Even if it were staged, there is no way these boys would have started such a ruckus at 1 am, when the police could easily have been called. At the same time as the shouting started, I felt this strange static electrical feeling over and around my body. I thought WTF? and got up to investigate. In the other room, two of the boys were shouting at the third one, who was growling and biting himself. His eyes were the reddest I had ever seen....blood red...more than stoner red...and again, none of them were doing drugs---these were young men addicted to charismania. So I'll give you the vague possibility that they were simply attempting to imitate what they had seen other charismaniacs do...but let me emphasize that they were so loud and serious at what was now 130 or 2 am that I just watched...Truthfully, demons were not my first explanation...I too thought mental illness, a bad burrito, drugs...anything more normal. At that moment, Mike (who was trying to be the exorcist) plead the Blood of Jesus over Jason, whereupon multiple high pitched voices emanated...there is NO WAY that such voices could be imitated, nor such sounds even produced with what we had and knew. As soon as I "heard" what I was certain were multiple voices---in the pitch of the chipmunks---saying "The Blood? No! No! Not the Blood!" I felt a wave of fear and realization wash over me. At that moment, 1 year into the charismatic environment at an otherwise "normal" church, I realized that the voices were real and they were NOT coming from any of us. Which meant that whatever it was was real...which was not what I was afraid of, by the way. I was afraid at that moment that what this meant was that the Bible...bizarre as its stories sometimes sound---was literally real and that demons were a reality.Now...Ive had many years to reflect on this never to be forgotten incident. I have become more rational in my thinking, out of respect for what education and rational critical thinking can do...but I'll never forget that experience. It was easier to dismiss what I had seen a couple of times at church...people being prayed over, manifesting bizarre behavior (yet never any voices such as I heard) and throwing up. I get that lots of charismatic religion is faked. One other time a church I was at attempted to imitate the Toronto Blessing Holy Laughter phenon/cult. I recall nearly everyone in the room laughing except me. I simply did not feel the urge nor any need to imitate the crowd behavior.So I'm not easily convinced of anything. I won't rule out that any other explanations could be better than my supernatural one. But I won't ever forget that night...not as long as I live.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

I'm all for logic, but I have not yet concluded that everything taught is necessarily superstitious or fantasy. Granted the power of logic compels me to consider such abnormal explanations as unlikely...but perhaps the need to believe keeps me from concluding that all is superstition (regarding God, Jesus,the Holy Spirit, and other possible demons, devils and wannabe spirits.)Faith takes a harder stance than I do in that she believes the Bible alone of all books is truth. My stance as of now is that I am unafraid to question it. I take my stand on the idea that God exists, God is Spirit, and that Jesus represents Gods human link to us...Jesus is Gods human character. I asked Him into my heart in 1993 and this started a whole other perspective on life for me. I used to believe in 100% Biblical Inerrancy and Literalism, but I began to question them. Granted these may be illogical thoughts, but I'm not ready to write the belief off as ancient superstition and myth. Critics would say that I resist compelling logic. As for our(EvC Christians) attitudes and character, I can only speak for myself. I would be more than willing to give up a belief in demons...why give "them" any power or credit? The same cannot be said for my belief in God. I pray that He enlighten all of us both through the power of logic and the power of love.The reason some people get snappy and bitter towards you and other detractors is that they are hurting in life anyway...struggling with various diseases, aches, and pains. I am one week away from a Vitrectomy and a couple weeks of recovery. Faith may feel as if you don't respect her belief, her intelligence, nor her right to believe..irrational though it may seem to you. Keep thinking of Faith as a gentle soul, and you may yet be the exorcist that God sent. Thinking of her as hateful and harpy will only feed the thing that separates her from the rest of you. At our core, none of us are perfect no matter how many college diplomas we possess.Thats my 2 cents. Edited by Phat, : added jabberwocky Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

There is actually such a song?

A second set of eyes is helpful, though not necessarily qualified. I won't attempt to defend my subjective experience as anything supernatural. It was unexplainable. The chipmunk voices sounded as if they came from an echo chamber, and there was also lots of other sounds with them. It most definitely was not as if a voice actor were hiding behind the couch. Also at that precise moment, I had a strong urge to surrender...but not to bow at the feet of the voices! I realized---at the moment I heard what I heard...that the experience was confirmation of what I already believed anyway. This is why its hard to discuss such things with reasonable yet naive people. You want me to throw away all of my conclusions...indeed belief itself...in the name of a form of rationality backed by NOTHING.

You know the drill. You were in churches half your life. I know you don't have the ability to watch the video, but for the rest of you, this is likely similar to the type of tongue talking that we have seen in church. Personally, it does not impress or influence me any more than a prayer spoken in English does...but my point is that it can be started and stopped by the one praying...it is not at all like Tourettes.
https://youtu.be/vsrwgd7rnR0?t=303
Start at 5:00 to skip the mumbo jumbo Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Cant read that preview...but you cant watch my video so we are even. All I'm saying is that tongues can be controlled. Personally, I am unimpressed by them...but wont belittle them...I have a few friends raised with that belief...Lately Ive been studying the opposing views than my own. I ordered a book by Bart Ehrman. Misquoting Jesus and am forcing myself to confront it. You and i discussed dualing evidence earlier...perhaps in another thread, and I found that strictly speaking my side has no real evidence apart from the subjective experience of we the believers.I see why you concluded that God was fiction yet embraced the message.I cannot stop believing that God exists. I have considered it and refused to do it.I believe that humans will collectively go that direction and that logic, reason, and reality will confirm the decision as best for humanity.But I believe that humanity needs God.And you, a thorn in the flesh that you are, have convicted me with your command (that jesus told me in the book) to go feed people and give them spare change.But that action alone gives me personally little comfort. If I died doing the right thing, what good would it do me? At best I am remembered as one who lived generously and with integrity. But I am still dead and gone.So I might ask why eternal life is such a silly concept to chase? mortality is depressing.

Percy, ringo, tangle and perhaps PaulK all think a similar way. They would argue that the Resurrection never happened simply because "resurrections don't happen". They would argue that there is no such thing as God or other lesser created spirits because of the same reason: Lack of evidence that is replicable and objectively documentable. The arguments that they don't seem to understand are not based on evidence apart from the subjective experience of many Christians. And of course, they will argue that "how can a Christian claim to have the one true truth and claim exclusivity from the other myriad number of religions"?Granted, these arguments are admittedly more objectively logical from the standpoint of an educated unbeliever. Tangle claims to have "outgrown" Christianity and places it on a par with Santa Claus myths. He does bring up a point that much of organized religion is obviously made up or at least embellished.So my question to you is this: Based on all that you have studied, all that you know about human nature, sin, and your subjective experience of salvation (I had one also) why did God do it the way that He did?My answer to that is as follows:God allowed satans alternative reality to exist...for a time. We are in that time, and there will come a time when he is locked up (according to mythos and dogma) and unleashed again 1000 years later. The symbolism seems to imply that allowing satan to even exist is part of the overall plan for humanity and for future progress and universal ambassadorship. Humanity would not even make it without God.Our responsibility is immense, however.First, we have to use the gift he gave us and learn to get along with each other, then and only then will we be ready to encounter other civilizations. The world is still in the early stages of emotional and spiritual maturity. The fight goes on until we graduate.Tangle would argue that we will graduate once we get rid of religious dogma.
I would argue that humanity still has a way to go before being trusted to seed a galaxy. But lest you scold me, I'll pray about it as I do other more personal things. I'm still learning---as a believer.And that brings up my last point. How can anyone argue that God makes mistakes, should be accountable to humanity, and could be improved? Would it not make sense that Gods flow is perfect?Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Perhaps they dont want to be known. I know you will argue that "perhaps they dont exist!" So on we go.

I believe that there is a truth behind the mythos. Knows what, exactly? I know what I experienced. I draw no conclusions, including your null hypothesis.Even in todays enlightened society, there is a lot that *we* don't know.What is so childish of a concept as a Creator of all seen and unseen who exists at some level? You gaffers would be much more impressed with alien slime found on Saturn or some voyager spacecraft....only because evidence confirmed it to your minds. This whole idea of evidence....methinks God purposefully wants to avoid being pinned down by it.Tim Minchin expresses it eloquently. Based on my experience, I cannot in good conscience stop believing.

this one looks somewhat staged but is in general what ive seen at church. I myself am skeptical of the crowd behavior. My event was more personal and in my. Opinion not staged.