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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Right Side of the News | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Faith writes: I've got to get out of this madhouse. That you have adverse reactions to facts explains a lot. You never responded to what Hillary Clinton actually said that was posted by PaulK in Message 487, indicating that the short clip of Clinton speaking in your video was misleading. But it doesn't matter what any particular politician wants now or wanted in the past. What matters are the facts on the ground today, and those facts say that we mostly don't need more wall of the type Trump keeps proposing, and especially not wall that would prevent access to our resources, such as the Rio Grande, or that puts our own communities on the wrong side of the wall, as has already happened in some cases, or any of a number of other undesirable outcomes. The latest poll results are in and they contradict your claims. Most Americans blame Trump and the Republicans for the shutdown, and most Americans do not want a Trump-style wall. See Americans blame Trump and GOP much more than Democrats for shutdown, Post-ABC poll finds:
quote: Got that? By a 54-42 percent margin, Americans don't want more wall. And by a 53-29 percent margin, Americans blame Trump and the Republicans for the shutdown. The wall has nothing to do with funding the government. There is no budget debate at present. Everyone thinks we should spend the money to open the government. The only thing standing in the way of opening the government is Trump's demand for a wall, which has nothing to do with funding the government. It's just Trump's unique style of negotiating, also known as extortion. McConnell should grow a spine and schedule a vote in the Senate on the bills being passed in the House to open the government. Trump will veto it and then the House and Senate will override the veto by a wide margin, even though a 2/3 majority is required. Once the government is open there can be a debate about what is really needed for border security. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Fox News reports today that Trump doubles down on border wall, as polls show voters turning against his shutdown strategy:
quote: Summarizing, 63% of voters think the government should be reopened, and that a shutdown shouldn't be used to force wall funding. 56% of voters blame Trump and Congressional Republicans for the shutdown, compared to 36% who blame Democrats. The Quinnipiac poll backs up what an earlier Washington Post-ABC News poll found. The only good news for wall huggers? Support for a wall has grown to 42%, though I couldn't find how the question was phrased. Does that 42% support a Trump-style concrete wall, or a steel slat wall, or just a barrier. Do they support walls everywhere or just in places where they make sense? --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
From Fox News (British Prime Minister Theresa May suffers devastating defeat on key Brexit vote):
quote: Let me repeat the end of that last sentence: "The largest defeat for a prime minister in the history of the House of Commons." Brexit was a stupid idea, but just like here in the US where 30%-40% of the American people support a vindictive buffoon/moron, some significant percentage of the people in the UK don't like being dictated to by the EU. They're idiots. Britain stood to lose trillions of pounds over the long haul. For one thing Britain is currently the financial center of the EU, a position which brings it billions of pounds every year, and that would go away. For another trade within the EU brings a benefit worth more billions of pounds. For another the EU is an economic and trading powerhouse on a par with the US and China. Being an EU member allows easy travel within all of Europe. In return they have to follow a bunch of rules regarding things like immigration and annual budgets and so forth. The politicians who told Britains that leaving the EU would cost little while freeing Britain from the threat of outside influences were liars and thieves. If the costs had been honestly communicated up front Brexit never would have passed. If sanity reigns then Parliament will schedule another Brexit vote, but sanity is in as short supply there as it is here. There's no way to tell what will happen next, and another Brexit vote doesn't even seem like one of the likely alternatives. But let me quote one of the idiot liars, Jacob Rees Mogg, speaking about the consequences of crashing out of the EU with no deal:
quote: Yeah, right. Stay tuned. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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Faith writes: So in Message 2718 of the Trump Bashing Thread Percy applauds George Will for his colorful trashing of Trump. Applauds? You did see that I called it "most harsh," right? You do know that George is a staunch conservative, right? You *did* read the opinion piece, right, and therefore saw the places were he was critical of liberals, such as when he referred to "the unsustainable trajectory of the entitlement state" or that his "media detractors...have sunk to his level of insufferable self-satisfaction by preening about their superiority to someone they consider morally horrifying and intellectually cretinous." What you also didn't do is mount any defense of Trump against George's characterizations.
The thing is Trump's supporters don't care about such things, don't care about his style at all, and the more he's put down for such irrelevancies the more people rally to his support. In recognition of the actual facts, such as that Trump's base is not expanding, George puts it a bit differently:
quote: Moving on:
Trump cares about what we care about,... Well, as I just quoted George saying, Trump's base "remains oblivious to his likely contempt for them." I think what 800,000 federal workers care about, many of whom apparently live paycheck to paycheck, is figuring out how they're going to survive the shutdown. Obviously Trump doesn't care about them. The wall is not going to help TSA workers or IRS workers or air traffic controllers feed their families or pay the rent.
...he really truly cares about restoring America's greatness in the world after Obama's attempts to destroy it,... Most of the world thinks Trump a buffoon way out of his depth who is being played a fool by Putin and Kim Jong Un.
...he cares about the President's job of protecting American citizens,... Yeah, he cares so much about you you can't even afford your medicine.
...and his faults don't rise to any level yet that challenges our trust in his dedication to these things. Just because you're turning a blind eye to his "faults" (far too weak a term for qualities like dishonesty, xenophobia, misogyny and racism, to mention a few) doesn't mean they aren't real.
These are what matter, and if they continue to matter this is what will continue to keep him in the position of the strongest opposition to the Loony Left we've ever had. If it weren't for Giuliani, Dotty Donald would be the looniest person in government.
The Left has been working feverishly to invent calumnies against him for more than two years now. Yes, we know you've had your head in the sand for a while now.
We know it is all lying propaganda,... Yet every time you're asked to describe this "lying propaganda" without lying yourself you come up dry. Your posts have been remarkably fact free, brimming with ad hominem, disdain and error and not much else.
That will be the end of America but we've been expecting it for years anyway. Some are predicting civil war but I don't see the conservative side having that mentality myself. We survived Nixon, and hopefully we'll survive Trump. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Faith writes: Not sure why it matters that you found the piece too harsh either. I didn't call it "too harsh." I called it "the most harsh I ever recall him writing." I called this to your attention because you said I "applauded" the piece, which is just you being wrong yet again.
And yes I know Will is a "conservative." "So what?" to that too. It means Will's criticisms are not based upon political differences.
I don't care what anyone has to say about what they dislike about Trump's character. Will is yet another conservative calling attention to Trump's character shortcomings, which you are turning a blind eye to. From your next Message 520:
We survived Nixon, and hopefully we'll survive Trump. I don't think we've even actually survived Obama. Trump is a finger in the dike but the damage is great and the incessant pounding of lies and propaganda by Trump's enemies could well finish us off. These are just more fact-free messages from you, long on complaints and totally free of any facts. I notice you didn't respond to how Trump doesn't care about you or the 800,000 unpaid federal workers, indicative of just one of his many character flaws that you somehow don't seem to recognize. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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Faith writes: I didn't get that you were criticizing Will for being so harsh. I wasn't neither applauding nor criticizing Will. I was just noting that his piece was "the most harsh I ever recall him writing." I have now quoted portions criticizing both Trump and liberals. The piece was fairly balanced in its criticisms. You might try reading it sometime, here's the link again: The shabbiest U.S. president ever is an inexpressibly sad specimen You tend to embrace all kinds of harsh stuff against Trump so that wouldn't occur to me. I only criticize Trump for acts that deserve criticism, such as those involving racism, bigotry, misogyny, xenophobia, appointing scoundrels and lying. I probably forgot a few. If you'd like me to again provide examples of Trump exhibiting these qualities you need only ask.
And his being a conservative is meaningless since Trump has lots of "conservative" enemies. Confusing the criticism is that Trump isn't a conservative. He shares a few positions with conservatives, such as anti-abortion, less regulation and lower taxes, but most of his positions are anti-conservative. For instance, he's anti-free trade, anti-NATO, and anti-low deficits. If you're a genuine conservative, what is there in Trump that you like?
Will is just another. They are willing to destroy him over what I consider to be irrelevancies, as I already said, which will destroy the only hope we've had in decades for the continuation of America. What do you see in Trump that is hopeful?
And your messages are usually fact-free opinion stuff too, big deal. That's the best you can come up with, an untrue, "Oh yeah! Well so do you!" My messages are full of facts, usually garnered from news articles (not opinion pieces), and often from Fox News so that "head in the sand" conservatives like yourself can't repeat your constant lie of Fake News. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Faith writes: You only criticize what deserves being criticized? Not quoting what I said and instead giving your own truncated version gives a strong misimpression of my meaning. When you say things that create in people's mind an untrue impression, that is lying. Here, again, is what I actually said in Message 523:
Percy in Message 523: You next say:
So much for facts, it's all opinion. As you can see, I offered to again provide (because they've been provided before over and over again) the evidence showing how we know Trump is a racist, bigoted, misogynist, xenophobic, lying scoundrel. Would you like me to do that? I'll even use Fox News as my source, assuming their old stuff is searchable. --PercyEdited by Percy, : Restore message link that had become plain text.
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Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Faith writes: ...all nothing but Leftist Political Correctness... Still unable to muster any facts, eh. Still operating under the delusion, like your hero, that name-calling constitutes informed rebuttal.
...protection against dangerous immigrants... We all believe government should serve as a bulwark against dangers, no argument there. But illegal immigration has been declining steadily over the past couple decades, and there's no indication that those entering the US illegally are any more dangerous than in the past. To the extent that there is a humanitarian crisis on our southern border, Trump created it himself.
...and what else, his affairs with women? I didn't mention Trump's infidelities, though I think most people are surprised that evangelicals are so blasé. Mike Pence won't even be alone with a woman, yet his morality seems to have no problem with Trump.
He's never said one word to justify these accusations. Trump thought his affairs important enough to keep quiet that he paid out nearly $300,000, that we know of.
Faith writes: So, again, your idea that you criticize only what deserves to be criticized is a big fat self delusion. Oh, I think everyone but you thinks that racism, misogyny, xenophobia, appointing scoundrels, lying, depriving federal employees of their salaries, attacking American institutions, committing campaign finance violations, obstructing justice, fraudulently attaining office, and treason all deserve criticism, and more. You expressed no interest, but the facts can again be presented to you upon request. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Faith writes: No there are no actual facts, it's all innuendo. Didn't Trump call Nazis and White Supremacists "very nice people?" Let me see if I can find the exact quote. Ah, yes, here it is: "You also had people that were very fine people, on both sides." He's referring, of course, to the Nazis and White Supremacists who marched in Charlottesville. Here's a YouTube video of him saying those exact words:
So it would appear to be a fact. And there are other facts supporting Trump's racism going back decades, such as his efforts to avoid renting his apartments to blacks, his advocacy of the death penalty for the black and Latino Central Park Five (who turned out to be innocent), his reference to Mexican immigrants as criminals and rapists, accusing Haitian immigrants as all having AIDS, his criticism of a Hispanic judge who ruled against him, his Muslim travel ban, his "Obama not born in America" campaign, his criticisms and neglection of Puerto Rico after its devastation by Hurricane Maria, his endorsement of Roy Moore for Senator from Alabama, and his use of the term Pocahontas as a term of disparagement. Would you like the facts behind the other criticisms? They've been provided before, but if you'd like to see them again you need only ask. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Your posts are remarkably free of links to corroborating information, even about things that are true.
Faith writes: Over the last couple of weeks I'd been hearing radio news reports on a series of murders of elderly people in the general area I live in,... I assume you're talking about this: Murder charges expected against illegal immigrant in killings Nobody denies that some illegal immigrants are criminals, just like some Americans are criminals. But the evidence we do have says that illegal immigrants commit crimes at a lesser rate than Americans.
Thousands of family members of Americans killed by illegals turned out about a week ago, interviewed by Sean Hannity, not reported in the main media for some reason. Given that maybe at most 10,000 Americans are killed each year by people completely unknown to them, in order for your claim about Hannity's reporting to be true most of them must have been killed by illegal immigrants. Surely even you must understand how impossibly unlikely this is.
There are a couple other recent stories the Leftwing media got predictably wrong I might as well mention here: the report that Cohen had been instructed by Trump to lie was made up out of whole cloth. Even Mueller felt it necessary to call it "inaccurate," no doubt a euphemism for "bald-faced lie." I covered this already in the The Trump Presidency thread. In Message 2708 I described the BuzzFeed report, and then I walked it back the next day in Message 2717 after Mueller's spokesperson issued the denial. As I said, the article was written by two respected journalists, one a Pulitzer Prize winner. Hopefully we'll hear more about this, but for now it looks like there's still no smoking gun.
Then there was the story of a bunch of mostly white kids wearing MAGA hats racially harassing an old Indian guy. ...Then the story just died when the truth came out. Given that the story is still on the front pages of the Washington Post, the New York Times, the Chicago Tribune and the LA Times, the story has not died. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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Fox News reports that its latest poll shows that most voters blame President Trump for the government shutdown. The poll forms the backdrop for this panel discussion, but few details about the poll are provided:
Although Fox News didn't run a story summarizing the poll, I did find a link to the detailed poll results in one of their stories on another topic. The polls can be found at Latest Fox News Poll. A few of the findings:
There's also ratings for Congress, which at 18% are down recently but higher than a year ago and before. 50% believe the country is worse off today than a year ago, but 34% believe their families are better off. The number of people who believe the economy will be stronger a year from now has dropped nearly 20 percentage points over the past two years, from 55% to 37%. The poll did have one ringer of a question:
The left does not believe we should move away from capitalism, but they do believe that capitalism's more unrestrained qualities require regulation for such things as the environment, fiscal responsibility (e.g., bank reserves), and the tax code (e.g., people paying their fair share). They also think a country as wealthy as ours should insure access to affordable healthcare and a fair shake economically. In other words, by the way it is phrased the question implies things that are not true --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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Faith writes: JonF writes: Jacob Wohl is "a former hedge fund manager and pro-Trump conspiracy theorist, [who] has been connected with the alleged sexual assault claims against special counsel Robert Mueller" (Jacob Wohl: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com). Trump has retweeted him. Here's a recent tweet:
Faith, can you spot the mammoth lie? I can't even read the thing, sorry. Can you read this:
I DON'T BELIEVE YOU. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
The Los Angeles Times reports U.S. officials to start pushing asylum seekers back across the border:
quote: --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
This opinion piece from the Washington Post, Trump has survived so many mistakes ” but the shutdown is his biggest blunder yet enumerates a few of the negative effects of Trump's government shutdown. All the links work for anyone who wants evidence that these are all true:
quote: --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
caffeine writes: The left does not believe we should move away from capitalism Of course there are people who believe we should move away from capitalism. If those people are not part of 'the left' then I have no idea what that term is meant to refer to. You mean Marxists and communists? The people should own the means of production and all that? Seems more like the far left.
A quarter of the respondents to the Fox poll said yes; while more than a third did the previous time they asked it. The question was still ill-phrased and implied things that are not true. Capitalism and socialism are not at opposite ends of some spectrum. They coexist just fine.
'The left' doesn't have beliefs, on account of being a very broad and ill-defined political category made up of millions of very different people with very different political viewpoints. You're defining "the left" in a very broad sense and then insisting that it can only be used in that sense. That's not at all true. In the context of that poll question and of this thread's backdrop of the current political debate between Democrats and Republicans in Washington, "the left" refers to those in favor of things like affordable healthcare for all, a fiscally healthy social security system, a social safety net, regulations supporting a clean environment and action on climate change, etc. I suppose that to varying degrees these can be interpreted as a move toward socialism, but not as a move away from capitalism. There will always be a legitimate debate about where to draw the line of responsibility between government and the private sector. For example, does being for or against having the government run our prisons mean one wants more or less capitalism? Of course not. Those in favor of private sector prisons might give greater weight to the efficiencies of competition in the marketplace providing prisons at lower cost, while those opposed might give greater weight to the social and legal risks presented by an industry motivated to lobby Washington in favor of policies that result in more people being locked up for longer periods of time. --Percy
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