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Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1494 of 1677 (847233)
01-19-2019 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1492 by ringo
01-19-2019 3:26 PM


Re: No comparison with Tourette's
I bet you don't even know what is meant by the supposed "structural similarities." In any case that misses the point. Tourette syndrome involves sudden spasmodic movements and the blurting out of words, neither of which is found in tongues speaking. The "gift" of tongues is usually a string of sounds that repeat, Tourettes is usually just a word or a few words and no repeat, and in the speaker's own language. The speaker can control when the tongues speaking starts and when it stops though not the sounds themselves, but Tourette's just happens out of the blue and can't be controlled.
There is no MEANINGFUL comparison with Tourette syndrome.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1492 by ringo, posted 01-19-2019 3:26 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1514 by ringo, posted 01-20-2019 1:21 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1496 of 1677 (847237)
01-19-2019 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1495 by GDR
01-19-2019 5:19 PM


Re: A Philosophical Rabbit Trail
If you want to get a balanced view from both sides I would recommend this book which is a debate between N T Wright and Marcus Borg.... Or here is a you tube debate between Wright and Dom Crossan
Um, what "both sides" could you mean here? Exactly what sort of "balance" is Phat to find between a heretic and a heretic, between the heretic Wright and a revisionist in the case of Crossan or a "progressive" in the case of Borg? Eh? Of course Phat gravitates to the anti-traditional anyway -- I find it very hard to get through any of the writings of the heretics like Bart Ehrman myself -- and Phat's rejection of Bible inerrancy doesn't bode well for his ever choosing the traditional theology anyway... but hm, isn't the debate in question between that traditional view and any of the heretics, revisionists, progressives and etc.?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1495 by GDR, posted 01-19-2019 5:19 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1499 by GDR, posted 01-19-2019 7:17 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1497 of 1677 (847238)
01-19-2019 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1487 by Tangle
01-19-2019 12:57 PM


Re: experience with demon-possessed man
Gosh, it seems to me that if separate voices are heard, especially by more than one normally sane person, voices expressing clear things in English from the region of a person's abdomen, say, rather than a voice from his own mouth, it seems eminently rational to conclude that this is not a normal communication from that person, nor a rumbling stomach due to indigestion, nor a hallucination etc etc etc. Rationality means judging things correctly according to accurate perception, but what you are really talking about is not rationality but imposing a bias on perception.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1487 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2019 12:57 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1505 by Tangle, posted 01-20-2019 4:08 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1498 of 1677 (847240)
01-19-2019 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1486 by Granny Magda
01-19-2019 12:53 PM


Re: experience with demon-possessed man
That's exactly how it sounds when someone speaks in multiple voices. High pitched, echoing and as if coming from elsewhere. It's an old-as-the-hills stage trick. Check it out, there are plenty of videos of the phenomenon.
What a coincidence then, since there was obviously no stage trick that Phat experienced. I also heard a chipmunky voice once, commenting on my belief in Jesus Christ, but it didn't have an echoing quality. It sounded like it came from the air a few feet from me. Another time I heard a deeper voice that did echo, like it was inside a steel drum. Actually it sounded echoey for a moment and then it suddenly died, as if suddenly snuffed out in a vacuum, which was an unnatural effect too. It was telling me to pray for someone everyone knew to pray for anyway. It was so clearly demonic it made me laugh. They often like to sound "Christian" so Christians might befriend them instead of hating them.
I'm sure nobody else would have heard these voices, that I was hearing them with a spiritual faculty and not my physical ears, but in the case of demon-possession anyone can hear them.
With unbelievers, of course, just the fact that they are supernatural beings is enough to seduce them into whatever little projects they would like to impose on gullible people, like the "Urantia" stuff, or "The Seth Books" or many other demon-inspired "teachings" including, I am sure, all the various Christian heresies.
ABE: Oh yeah, one I forgot: Oprah's favorite "A Course in Miracles." There are lots more I know I'm forgetting. Them demons are always at work trying to trip up silly humanity, and they succeed only too well. If they don't get you with a stupid treatise on fake supernatural explanations they'll get you with something "scientific" that denies the supernatural. Smart little devils.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1486 by Granny Magda, posted 01-19-2019 12:53 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1536 by Granny Magda, posted 01-21-2019 11:24 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1500 of 1677 (847248)
01-19-2019 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1499 by GDR
01-19-2019 7:17 PM


Re: A Philosophical Rabbit Trail
I'm not "afraid" of reading the heretics, they just bore me to death with their idiotic ideas.
Well at least you reject some of the heretics, but Wright is a heretic himself.
Since I follow Reformation-based thinkers I know I'm not getting that wrong.
I find Jesus to be very sharply in focus among Reformation thinkers.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1499 by GDR, posted 01-19-2019 7:17 PM GDR has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1501 of 1677 (847250)
01-19-2019 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1499 by GDR
01-19-2019 7:17 PM


N T Wright
Here's Phil Johnson of Grace to You on N T Wright. Johnson is one of the Reformation guys I like a lot. If you don't want to read the whole thing just read the last few paragraphs to get the gist of his argument:
What’s Wrong with Wright: Examining the New Perspective on Paul by Phil Johnson
abe: I'd include a quote except I can't decide where to start. I'm not even sure where the last few paragraphs I suggested you read should begin, just that Johnson does state important objections to Wright in the last paragraphs. But also in paragraphs above the last few. I guess whatever you read will convey some of the argument anyway. I have to read it again myself but he shows that Wright undoes pretty much all the major tenets of orthodox Christianity, such as justification by faith alone, such as the penal substitution understanding of the atonement etc. etc. etc.
Sounds to me like he basically invented his own Christianity, and that would fit with what I see in most of what you write: that's not Christianity, it's some kind of heretical rewritten fake Christianity, maybe mostly from Wright, I don't know, maybe made up partly by you.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1499 by GDR, posted 01-19-2019 7:17 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1502 by GDR, posted 01-20-2019 1:21 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1503 of 1677 (847256)
01-20-2019 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1502 by GDR
01-20-2019 1:21 AM


Re: N T Wright
Is all that in the article?
Johnson is true to the Reformation itself, nothing American about it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1502 by GDR, posted 01-20-2019 1:21 AM GDR has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1504 of 1677 (847257)
01-20-2019 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1502 by GDR
01-20-2019 1:21 AM


Re: N T Wright
Double take:
"In the US?" Are you at all familiar with the Calvinists of the UK of earlier generations? Charles Spurgeon? Martyn Lloyd Jones? J C Ryle? John Owen? And a whole slew of others, many who might not call themselves Calvinists but nevertheless share that theology.
Justification IS "all about personal salvation," it's the Gospel, the Good News, "the power of God unto salvation to all who believe..." as Paul put it. If we aren't saved we aren't able to do anything of any value to the Kingdom of God.
Wright is simply a heretic, period.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1502 by GDR, posted 01-20-2019 1:21 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1510 by GDR, posted 01-20-2019 10:57 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1506 of 1677 (847266)
01-20-2019 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1505 by Tangle
01-20-2019 4:08 AM


Re: experience with demon-possessed man
These things were commonplace before the world got rational, requiring various Christian and other cultist practitioners to create rituals to deal with them. But, as always, they never, ever occur where they can be actually studied objectively. And reported occurrences are now rare - for the obvious reason that we now know that there's no such thing as demon posession.
This is really just a belief system invented out of whole cloth that utterly denies the facts as observed, even described here. You have to ignore half of what has been said, or force it into an interpretive scheme it doesn't fit at all, to say what you are saying. What "rituals" anyway? None that I know of. If you DID study these things objectively you would very rapidly discover how wrong you are (and then you could experience being treated like an idiot and a throwback to a primitive irrational time), but instead this whole fiction is presented as if it were fact without any study whatever, purely wishful thinking, while those who have witnessed things that don't fit your preconceived explanations are dismissed as crazy. All a wild conjecture treated as reality. THAT's what's crazy.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1505 by Tangle, posted 01-20-2019 4:08 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1507 by Phat, posted 01-20-2019 9:38 AM Faith has replied
 Message 1515 by Tangle, posted 01-20-2019 1:26 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1509 of 1677 (847274)
01-20-2019 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1507 by Phat
01-20-2019 9:38 AM


Re: experience with demon-possessed man
Percy, ringo, tangle and perhaps PaulK all think a similar way.
Of course they would, Phat, they are all unbelievers who lack the regenerated spirit necessary to understating the things of God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1507 by Phat, posted 01-20-2019 9:38 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1512 of 1677 (847278)
01-20-2019 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1510 by GDR
01-20-2019 10:57 AM


Re: N T Wright
That's the thing, GDR, the truth is the truth, that's why there is a dogma, that's why we have Confessions of Faith and Creeds, Christian truth is not a matter of opinion, it's a body of knowledge given us by God. There are some variations in understanding of course since we are human, but the basics are a matter of established truth. So yes we have absolute answers, or at least we know it's a matter requiring absolute answers and after two thousand years of theological work we know a brand new way of understanding scripture is just somebody's arrogant claim to know more than all those theologians down the centuries. Wright actively contradicts the basic tenets of Christian faith. I think he should be officially excommunicated from Orthodoxy myself. He can go on pushing his heresy and you can belong to it, but it isn't Christianity.
You say that you hold true to reformation thinking. I would disagree but that is not the point. After the resurrection of Jesus the first Christians, and primarily Paul, were the first theologians working out what it all meant. The reformation came about as the Bible began to be translated into other languages and became accessible to a much larger audience and was not simply in the hands of the church. As a result the progressive revelation of God took a large leap forward.
What do you think the Church is? It's all the theologians and priests which included all the Reformers, and their work showed that the Roman Church that had claimed the right to determine truth was in violation of God's word. They hammered out what the scripture actually says and reestablished the Church on a scriptural footing. The Reformers read scripture in Latin and in the original languages. Luther MADE the translation into German, it didn't already exist so it had nothing to do with shaping his Reformation doctrines which you seem to be implying.
Since that time we have had numerous theologians and Christian thinkers continuing to advance our understanding.
Not much advancing going on that I can see, mostly undermining.
One of the big gains has occurred in the last century with the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
The Old Testament texts found among the Dead Sea Scrolls are just about exactly identical with our Old Testament text today, not in any way a change from that text.
With the internet there is so much more information available to Christian thinkers and so much more opportunity to hammer things out in debate.
Not at all. A huge array of documents was available to the earliest theologians who hammered out the orthodox view and separated the wheat from the chaff, the truth from the heresies. Changes after that wree mostly refinements, nothing new, and anything actually new today really isn't, it's just old heresies recycled for an arrogant new set of "scholars."
Our understanding of the first century Jewish world has grown enormously since the time of the reformation. There have been huge insights into how the Jewish audience that Jesus the Jew was addressing would have understood by what Jesus was saying and doing.
No, Paul was as knowledgeable a Jew as you could find, he knew Judaism inside and out, and this claim that he'd been misunderstood is a vile lie. We have all we need to have of insight into the Jewish mind in the scriptures themselves, a lot of it from Paul who was as he himself says as committed a Jew as you'd ever find, and he spelled it all out clearly enough for all the theologians who worked on it to grasp. We don't neeed some new apologetic for Judaism. Today's orthodox Jews teach just what the Pharisees taught in Jesus' day, I've had lengthy conversions with one of them. Wright is an underminer of the truth.
The progressive revelation has taken, and is taking, another huge leap forward and you are still stuck in an offshoot of reformation theology scared silly about letting in any new light.
It's more like it nauseates me to see truth undermined. Scripture certainly shows a progressive revelation, but what that means is that more light is shed over time on the same facts and tenets that existed from the beginning. Nothing new in the sense of different from the first revelations is given, it's simply greater exposure of the depths and ramifications of the same truths. Dedicated exegetes may still find new depths, but they will never find anything that contradicts the "faith once given to the saints."
Wright arrogantly claims to find such differences. He's a heretic.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1510 by GDR, posted 01-20-2019 10:57 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1521 by GDR, posted 01-20-2019 6:48 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1522 of 1677 (847301)
01-20-2019 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1521 by GDR
01-20-2019 6:48 PM


Re: N T Wright
GDR writes However you accept the changes that came with the reformation. The point of the new perspective that is the reformation today is about going back to the original meanings of what was written and we are now better able to understand what was written and there is much greater ability to share thoughts and ideas.
Utter nonsense. Erasmus was an excellent translator, so was Luther, so was Tyndale, so were the King James translators. And no greater ability to share anything today either.
GDR writes Frankly, to use your term, it nauseates me how someone like yourself can turn the God of love, forgiveness, mercy and sacrifice that we see embodied by Jesus, into a god that commits and commands genocides and advocates public stonings.
That brand of Christianity is the worst heresy I can think of. It boils down to the fundamental sin of calling that which is evil good, and then attributing it to God.
Nope, the God of love, and He really is love, did all those things because He is love, because His severe justice is love. And this is orthodox traditional Christianity while your fleshly wimp stuff is not.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1521 by GDR, posted 01-20-2019 6:48 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1527 by GDR, posted 01-20-2019 10:05 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1523 of 1677 (847302)
01-20-2019 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1515 by Tangle
01-20-2019 1:26 PM


Re: experience with demon-possessed man
What "rituals" anyway? None that I know of.
Excorcism. Of course you've heard of it.
You must be thinking of some weird Roman Church thing, because casting out demons is not a ritual in any other context, in fact it is different for each situation.
As for evidence I claim what Phat described is evidence that you willfully ignore without cause. However, I am checking out some sources for myself and if I run across an actual casting out on video I'll post it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1515 by Tangle, posted 01-20-2019 1:26 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1530 by Tangle, posted 01-21-2019 3:33 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1524 of 1677 (847303)
01-20-2019 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1514 by ringo
01-20-2019 1:21 PM


Re: No comparison with Tourette's
Scripture says we can even control prophecy so that we can choose when to state it and when not to, and prophecy is given by the Holy Spirit so you are wrong that we can't control His gifts. Besides, He inspired all the prophecies of the Bible, who had to write it all down. As for tongues, I don't believe it is from the Holy Spirit anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1514 by ringo, posted 01-20-2019 1:21 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1525 by Phat, posted 01-20-2019 8:07 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1534 by ringo, posted 01-21-2019 10:41 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1526 of 1677 (847307)
01-20-2019 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1525 by Phat
01-20-2019 8:07 PM


Re: No comparison with Tourette's
That video just confirms for me that the charismatic context is not trustworthy. The woman yelling "come out" doesn't seem to have a clue what she's doing. People who have studied demonic possession and deal with it responsibly take it a lot more seriously than that. They know it can be pretty complicated. It involves sin that has to be confessed and repented of, and people may leave out important information, not necessarily intentionally but it makes a difference in whether they are really delivered or not. It's not a simple thing of just yelling "come out" at a person. According to Karl Payne, the Baptist pastor who has spent years dealing with these things, you have to take into account that demons are ranked in a hierarchy of authority, having to answer to ranks above themselves and not having to answer to somebody just yelling "get out." I don't have his book but I've been watching some videos of him. Very down to earth kind of guy, no showman, very serious and thoughtful. So I don't trust anything in that video.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1525 by Phat, posted 01-20-2019 8:07 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1531 by Phat, posted 01-21-2019 3:47 AM Faith has not replied

  
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