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Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1501 of 1677 (847250)
01-19-2019 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1499 by GDR
01-19-2019 7:17 PM


N T Wright
Here's Phil Johnson of Grace to You on N T Wright. Johnson is one of the Reformation guys I like a lot. If you don't want to read the whole thing just read the last few paragraphs to get the gist of his argument:
What’s Wrong with Wright: Examining the New Perspective on Paul by Phil Johnson
abe: I'd include a quote except I can't decide where to start. I'm not even sure where the last few paragraphs I suggested you read should begin, just that Johnson does state important objections to Wright in the last paragraphs. But also in paragraphs above the last few. I guess whatever you read will convey some of the argument anyway. I have to read it again myself but he shows that Wright undoes pretty much all the major tenets of orthodox Christianity, such as justification by faith alone, such as the penal substitution understanding of the atonement etc. etc. etc.
Sounds to me like he basically invented his own Christianity, and that would fit with what I see in most of what you write: that's not Christianity, it's some kind of heretical rewritten fake Christianity, maybe mostly from Wright, I don't know, maybe made up partly by you.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1499 by GDR, posted 01-19-2019 7:17 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1502 by GDR, posted 01-20-2019 1:21 AM Faith has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1502 of 1677 (847255)
01-20-2019 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1501 by Faith
01-19-2019 7:55 PM


Re: N T Wright
OK I read the whole thing. People like yourself, Phil Johnson, Piper and others have taken the Calvin message and twisted it with a specific theology that is primarily held in the US. It is a theology that takes justification and makes it all about personal salvation.
The primary focus for Johnson is personal salvation. Who is saved and who is not. Who is in and who is out. It goes further and essentially declares who is in and who is out.
It downplays the whole Kingdom message that calls us to do the kingdom work of spreading the love, forgiveness, mercy etc to the world. He then claims that thinking along those lines is salvation by works, thus again not being able to get beyond his primary focus of who is in and who is not. He completely misses the point. We are called to that as a vocation.
Personal salvation is a by product of that because when we do take that on as vocation our hearts are changed so that we take on the heart of God and have faith not in a specific doctrine, but faith and trust in the call of God that we should hold to a life that finds joy in sacrificial love.
So much of your style of evangelism is about having formulations that provide absolute answers. The whole notion of penal substitution is so misconstrued by Johnson. To simply say that Jesus died for the sins of the world is not enough. Why do we have to worry about who is in and who is out. If it is for the world then it includes everyone. He died as an act of faith in answer to the Hebrew Scriptures, and through prayer, and trusting that the Father that He prayed to would somehow vindicate His life and message. God did that with His resurrection.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1501 by Faith, posted 01-19-2019 7:55 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1503 by Faith, posted 01-20-2019 1:26 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 1504 by Faith, posted 01-20-2019 1:51 AM GDR has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1503 of 1677 (847256)
01-20-2019 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1502 by GDR
01-20-2019 1:21 AM


Re: N T Wright
Is all that in the article?
Johnson is true to the Reformation itself, nothing American about it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1502 by GDR, posted 01-20-2019 1:21 AM GDR has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1504 of 1677 (847257)
01-20-2019 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1502 by GDR
01-20-2019 1:21 AM


Re: N T Wright
Double take:
"In the US?" Are you at all familiar with the Calvinists of the UK of earlier generations? Charles Spurgeon? Martyn Lloyd Jones? J C Ryle? John Owen? And a whole slew of others, many who might not call themselves Calvinists but nevertheless share that theology.
Justification IS "all about personal salvation," it's the Gospel, the Good News, "the power of God unto salvation to all who believe..." as Paul put it. If we aren't saved we aren't able to do anything of any value to the Kingdom of God.
Wright is simply a heretic, period.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1502 by GDR, posted 01-20-2019 1:21 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1510 by GDR, posted 01-20-2019 10:57 AM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 1505 of 1677 (847260)
01-20-2019 4:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1497 by Faith
01-19-2019 5:48 PM


Re: experience with demon-possessed man
Faith writes:
Gosh, it seems to me that if separate voices are heard, especially by more than one normally sane person, voices expressing clear things in English from the region of a person's abdomen, say, rather than a voice from his own mouth, it seems eminently rational to conclude that this is not a normal communication from that person, nor a rumbling stomach due to indigestion, nor a hallucination etc etc etc. Rationality means judging things correctly according to accurate perception, but what you are really talking about is not rationality but imposing a bias on perception.
These things were commonplace before the world got rational, requiring various Christian and other cultist practitioners to create rituals to deal with them. But, as always, they never, ever occur where they can be actually studied objectively. And reported occurrences are now rare - for the obvious reason that we now know that there's no such thing as demon posession.
It's more superstitious crap and I suspect Phat knows it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1497 by Faith, posted 01-19-2019 5:48 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1506 by Faith, posted 01-20-2019 9:00 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 1508 by Phat, posted 01-20-2019 9:41 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1506 of 1677 (847266)
01-20-2019 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1505 by Tangle
01-20-2019 4:08 AM


Re: experience with demon-possessed man
These things were commonplace before the world got rational, requiring various Christian and other cultist practitioners to create rituals to deal with them. But, as always, they never, ever occur where they can be actually studied objectively. And reported occurrences are now rare - for the obvious reason that we now know that there's no such thing as demon posession.
This is really just a belief system invented out of whole cloth that utterly denies the facts as observed, even described here. You have to ignore half of what has been said, or force it into an interpretive scheme it doesn't fit at all, to say what you are saying. What "rituals" anyway? None that I know of. If you DID study these things objectively you would very rapidly discover how wrong you are (and then you could experience being treated like an idiot and a throwback to a primitive irrational time), but instead this whole fiction is presented as if it were fact without any study whatever, purely wishful thinking, while those who have witnessed things that don't fit your preconceived explanations are dismissed as crazy. All a wild conjecture treated as reality. THAT's what's crazy.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1505 by Tangle, posted 01-20-2019 4:08 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1507 by Phat, posted 01-20-2019 9:38 AM Faith has replied
 Message 1515 by Tangle, posted 01-20-2019 1:26 PM Faith has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1507 of 1677 (847269)
01-20-2019 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1506 by Faith
01-20-2019 9:00 AM


Re: experience with demon-possessed man
Percy, ringo, tangle and perhaps PaulK all think a similar way. They would argue that the Resurrection never happened simply because "resurrections don't happen". They would argue that there is no such thing as God or other lesser created spirits because of the same reason: Lack of evidence that is replicable and objectively documentable. The arguments that they don't seem to understand are not based on evidence apart from the subjective experience of many Christians. And of course, they will argue that "how can a Christian claim to have the one true truth and claim exclusivity from the other myriad number of religions"?
Granted, these arguments are admittedly more objectively logical from the standpoint of an educated unbeliever. Tangle claims to have "outgrown" Christianity and places it on a par with Santa Claus myths. He does bring up a point that much of organized religion is obviously made up or at least embellished.
So my question to you is this: Based on all that you have studied, all that you know about human nature, sin, and your subjective experience of salvation (I had one also) why did God do it the way that He did?
My answer to that is as follows:
God allowed satans alternative reality to exist...for a time. We are in that time, and there will come a time when he is locked up (according to mythos and dogma) and unleashed again 1000 years later. The symbolism seems to imply that allowing satan to even exist is part of the overall plan for humanity and for future progress and universal ambassadorship. Humanity would not even make it without God.
Our responsibility is immense, however.
First, we have to use the gift he gave us and learn to get along with each other, then and only then will we be ready to encounter other civilizations. The world is still in the early stages of emotional and spiritual maturity. The fight goes on until we graduate.
Tangle would argue that we will graduate once we get rid of religious dogma.
I would argue that humanity still has a way to go before being trusted to seed a galaxy. But lest you scold me, I'll pray about it as I do other more personal things. I'm still learning---as a believer.
And that brings up my last point. How can anyone argue that God makes mistakes, should be accountable to humanity, and could be improved? Would it not make sense that Gods flow is perfect?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1506 by Faith, posted 01-20-2019 9:00 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1509 by Faith, posted 01-20-2019 10:49 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1511 by PaulK, posted 01-20-2019 11:01 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1518 by Tangle, posted 01-20-2019 1:44 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1508 of 1677 (847270)
01-20-2019 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1505 by Tangle
01-20-2019 4:08 AM


Re: experience with demon-possessed man
These things were commonplace before the world got rational, requiring various Christian and other cultist practitioners to create rituals to deal with them. But, as always, they never, ever occur where they can be actually studied objectively.
Perhaps they dont want to be known. I know you will argue that "perhaps they dont exist!" So on we go.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1505 by Tangle, posted 01-20-2019 4:08 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1516 by ringo, posted 01-20-2019 1:27 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1517 by Tangle, posted 01-20-2019 1:32 PM Phat has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1509 of 1677 (847274)
01-20-2019 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1507 by Phat
01-20-2019 9:38 AM


Re: experience with demon-possessed man
Percy, ringo, tangle and perhaps PaulK all think a similar way.
Of course they would, Phat, they are all unbelievers who lack the regenerated spirit necessary to understating the things of God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1507 by Phat, posted 01-20-2019 9:38 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1510 of 1677 (847275)
01-20-2019 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1504 by Faith
01-20-2019 1:51 AM


Re: N T Wright
Faith wrote Wright is simply a heretic, period.
GDR writes That is one of the characteristics of fundamentalism. You have to label people and have absolute answers as to who is in and who is out. A heretic in your books are those who disagree with your rigid theology. If I were to think that way it would be obvious that you are the heretic because you do not believe as I do. Interestingly enough, originally a heretic was someone who disagreed with Roman Catholic doctrine.
You knock N T Wright as a heretic. He has written several books about Paul including one I am reading now simply called Paul and is over 1600 pages. I am working my way through and am at page 940. The point is that he just might have put more thought into understanding Paul than either you or Johnson.
Faith wrote Justification IS "all about personal salvation," it's the Gospel, the Good News, "the power of God unto salvation to all who believe..." as Paul put it. If we aren't saved we aren't able to do anything of any value to the Kingdom of God.
GDR writes Once again you turn Christianity on its ear by making personal salvation the point of it all. You make it a religion of selfishness. It becomes what is in it for me. You turn faith into a work. It is law based in that you have to give intellectual ascent to doctrine as you understand it.
It goes back into the ancient Jewish thinking which was how do we get on the right side of Yahweh so that He will bless our nation. How can we get Yahweh to free us from our oppressors and give us dominion over our neighbouring tribes. At least they were thinking of their whole tribe, whereas you make it all about the self.
You say that you hold true to reformation thinking. I would disagree but that is not the point. After the resurrection of Jesus the first Christians, and primarily Paul, were the first theologians working out what it all meant. The reformation came about as the Bible began to be translated into other languages and became accessible to a much larger audience and was not simply in the hands of the church. As a result the progressive revelation of God took a large leap forward.
Since that time we have had numerous theologians and Christian thinkers continuing to advance our understanding. One of the big gains has occurred in the last century with the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. With the internet there is so much more information available to Christian thinkers and so much more opportunity to hammer things out in debate. Our understanding of the first century Jewish world has grown enormously since the time of the reformation. There have been huge insights into how the Jewish audience that Jesus the Jew was addressing would have understood by what Jesus was saying and doing. The progressive revelation has taken, and is taking, another huge leap forward and you are still stuck in an offshoot of reformation theology scared silly about letting in any new light.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1504 by Faith, posted 01-20-2019 1:51 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1512 by Faith, posted 01-20-2019 11:37 AM GDR has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 1511 of 1677 (847276)
01-20-2019 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1507 by Phat
01-20-2019 9:38 AM


The Resurrection
quote:
Percy, ringo, tangle and perhaps PaulK all think a similar way. They would argue that the Resurrection never happened simply because "resurrections don't happen".
I will not speak for the others but that does not represent my view.
I would argue against the Resurrection on the grounds that the evidence we have is better explained by the Resurrection being a legend rather than a genuine event.
The closest I would get to your idea is the argument that naturalistic explanations must be preferred on grounds of likelihood - resurrections are not normal events - but I think my argument is strong enough to win without that point (not to say that it is not a valid point - it is - only to say that it is not needed).
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1507 by Phat, posted 01-20-2019 9:38 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1512 of 1677 (847278)
01-20-2019 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1510 by GDR
01-20-2019 10:57 AM


Re: N T Wright
That's the thing, GDR, the truth is the truth, that's why there is a dogma, that's why we have Confessions of Faith and Creeds, Christian truth is not a matter of opinion, it's a body of knowledge given us by God. There are some variations in understanding of course since we are human, but the basics are a matter of established truth. So yes we have absolute answers, or at least we know it's a matter requiring absolute answers and after two thousand years of theological work we know a brand new way of understanding scripture is just somebody's arrogant claim to know more than all those theologians down the centuries. Wright actively contradicts the basic tenets of Christian faith. I think he should be officially excommunicated from Orthodoxy myself. He can go on pushing his heresy and you can belong to it, but it isn't Christianity.
You say that you hold true to reformation thinking. I would disagree but that is not the point. After the resurrection of Jesus the first Christians, and primarily Paul, were the first theologians working out what it all meant. The reformation came about as the Bible began to be translated into other languages and became accessible to a much larger audience and was not simply in the hands of the church. As a result the progressive revelation of God took a large leap forward.
What do you think the Church is? It's all the theologians and priests which included all the Reformers, and their work showed that the Roman Church that had claimed the right to determine truth was in violation of God's word. They hammered out what the scripture actually says and reestablished the Church on a scriptural footing. The Reformers read scripture in Latin and in the original languages. Luther MADE the translation into German, it didn't already exist so it had nothing to do with shaping his Reformation doctrines which you seem to be implying.
Since that time we have had numerous theologians and Christian thinkers continuing to advance our understanding.
Not much advancing going on that I can see, mostly undermining.
One of the big gains has occurred in the last century with the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
The Old Testament texts found among the Dead Sea Scrolls are just about exactly identical with our Old Testament text today, not in any way a change from that text.
With the internet there is so much more information available to Christian thinkers and so much more opportunity to hammer things out in debate.
Not at all. A huge array of documents was available to the earliest theologians who hammered out the orthodox view and separated the wheat from the chaff, the truth from the heresies. Changes after that wree mostly refinements, nothing new, and anything actually new today really isn't, it's just old heresies recycled for an arrogant new set of "scholars."
Our understanding of the first century Jewish world has grown enormously since the time of the reformation. There have been huge insights into how the Jewish audience that Jesus the Jew was addressing would have understood by what Jesus was saying and doing.
No, Paul was as knowledgeable a Jew as you could find, he knew Judaism inside and out, and this claim that he'd been misunderstood is a vile lie. We have all we need to have of insight into the Jewish mind in the scriptures themselves, a lot of it from Paul who was as he himself says as committed a Jew as you'd ever find, and he spelled it all out clearly enough for all the theologians who worked on it to grasp. We don't neeed some new apologetic for Judaism. Today's orthodox Jews teach just what the Pharisees taught in Jesus' day, I've had lengthy conversions with one of them. Wright is an underminer of the truth.
The progressive revelation has taken, and is taking, another huge leap forward and you are still stuck in an offshoot of reformation theology scared silly about letting in any new light.
It's more like it nauseates me to see truth undermined. Scripture certainly shows a progressive revelation, but what that means is that more light is shed over time on the same facts and tenets that existed from the beginning. Nothing new in the sense of different from the first revelations is given, it's simply greater exposure of the depths and ramifications of the same truths. Dedicated exegetes may still find new depths, but they will never find anything that contradicts the "faith once given to the saints."
Wright arrogantly claims to find such differences. He's a heretic.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1510 by GDR, posted 01-20-2019 10:57 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1521 by GDR, posted 01-20-2019 6:48 PM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1513 of 1677 (847282)
01-20-2019 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1493 by Phat
01-19-2019 4:04 PM


Re: A Philosophical Rabbit Trail
Phat writes:
Cant read that preview...
You should be able to tell from the title in the link that the similarities are not something I made up.
Phat writes:
All I'm saying is that tongues can be controlled.
As I learned it, "speaking in tongues" is supposed to be the Holy Spirit speaking through you, so no, I don't see how you could possibly be in control of the Holy Spirit.
Phat writes:
If I died doing the right thing, what good would it do me?
quote:
Mark 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
As usual, you're thinking backwards. Doing the right thing is what saves your soul.
Phat writes:
So I might ask why eternal life is such a silly concept to chase?
Maybe you're misunderstanding what eternal life is.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1493 by Phat, posted 01-19-2019 4:04 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1514 of 1677 (847283)
01-20-2019 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1494 by Faith
01-19-2019 5:16 PM


Re: No comparison with Tourette's
Faith writes:
I bet you don't even know what is meant by the supposed "structural similarities."
Do you?
Faith writes:
The speaker can control when the tongues speaking starts and when it stops....
As I told Phat, speaking in tongues is supposedly the Holy Spirit speaking through you, so no, you can't control the Holy Spirit.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1494 by Faith, posted 01-19-2019 5:16 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1524 by Faith, posted 01-20-2019 7:19 PM ringo has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1515 of 1677 (847284)
01-20-2019 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1506 by Faith
01-20-2019 9:00 AM


Re: experience with demon-possessed man
Faith writes:
What "rituals" anyway? None that I know of.
Excorcism. Of course you've heard of it.
If you DID study these things objectively you would very rapidly discover how wrong you are (and then you could experience being treated like an idiot and a throwback to a primitive irrational time), but instead this whole fiction is presented as if it were fact without any study whatever, purely wishful thinking, while those who have witnessed things that don't fit your preconceived explanations are dismissed as crazy. All a wild conjecture treated as reality. THAT's what's crazy.
Please produce your evidence. (Anecdotes are not evidence). If this is such a common and real occurrence I'm sure you'll have some actual evidence?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1506 by Faith, posted 01-20-2019 9:00 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1523 by Faith, posted 01-20-2019 7:16 PM Tangle has replied

  
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