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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 708 of 1444 (847333)
01-21-2019 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by NoNukes
07-21-2015 6:21 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
nonukes writes:
The creation of a universe that includes the possibility of free will inevitably involves good and bad events. And with respect to the tiny part of the creation that is earth, very often man himself is the author of his own misfortune, other times accident and misfortune befall us. But overall, creation is a positive thing. The only alternative is non-creation.
Agreed.
Do such limitations mean that the creator is not really omnipotent? Well, given that none of us can conceive of a way to create any kind of universe with living beings in it at all, I think that's a rather silly question. If some of us starve on a world that can feed everyone, is that somehow God's fault? Is it God's fault that our sun is only going to last a few billion years? I don't see any of those things as something with which to find fault with God.
Nor do I. Ringo argues that its basically Gods job to do as much good on our behalf as He is capable of doing. Thus the whole hypothetical philosophical argument over what free will actually is, if it has any meaning, and what the implications are in light of the classical apologetic view of God and His communion/role in our lives.
I think that many people limit God to what is described Biblically and fail to allow some leniency in imagining what such a communion would actually be like. Of course, we don't know, but I personally feel that an autocratic stern OT God is totally unrealistic as to what I would anticipate. For those of you who don't believe in God, it is easy to dismiss Him as simply a character in the book (and in many books and in many shapes, sizes, and capabilities/attributes.)
I understand that such an understanding is incompatible with some expectations of omniscience and omnipotence. But quite frankly I think the understanding lots of people have about those things is kind of comic booky.
Fair enough. My hope is that we can arrive at some fair consensus of the expectations, capabilities, and motives of (for you) a hypothetical Creator of all seen and unseen Who desires a Communion and active role in our daily reality ---without being a comic book creation. Tough to do, I'm sure.
What's more, I'm pretty sure that you yourself don't actually possess those beliefs. Instead you are extending what you believe must be the conclusions of people who do believe in an omnipotent God who cares about them in particular.
Yes you hit the proverbial nail on the head. I understand that God is not a cosmic bellhop nor a genie granting wishes. I assume that God has the following attributes:
  • Cares about our individual and collective well being.
  • Has insight into our future in all of its possible trajectories.
  • Gives us the ability to choose certain paths and allows us to do so. In this case, it is, in my opinion, irrelevant if God knows our choice by being omnipresent in the future after we have made our choices. You claim that this ability makes Him responsible. OK, I will go with that, but were He to change our course and correct our mistakes, what good would that do for us? It's like having a teenager...siometime you just give them the car keys and let go. If they happen to die that night, what are you gonna do? Wish you kept them at home??
    Edited by Phat, : name

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 145 by NoNukes, posted 07-21-2015 6:21 PM NoNukes has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 711 by PaulK, posted 01-21-2019 2:50 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 709 of 1444 (847334)
    01-21-2019 11:06 AM
    Reply to: Message 141 by PaulK
    07-21-2015 5:39 PM


    Re: ** FOREknowledge**
    It's the ability to know, not the fact of knowledge which is the issue.
    That last post was meant for you by the way. No nukes is apparently inactive.
    So we can throw all iof the responsibility on God and take none for ourselves, right? After all He allowed satan to exist. He allegedly set up the whole Fall of Man..(according to tradition). My response is so what? So He knows what we will choose. All that this means is that we dont have complete freedom to choose apart from His foreknowledge. If true, so what? So we indict Him. Perhaps a good attorney can get us out of hell? (Except that the lawyers all are there too.
    Seriously...what alternative capability of God would preserve our free will and allow us to share (at least) the responsibility for our final destination?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 141 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2015 5:39 PM PaulK has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 710 of 1444 (847335)
    01-21-2019 11:13 AM
    Reply to: Message 674 by PaulK
    01-11-2019 12:29 AM


    Hypothetical God For Today's Humans
    God manipulating them into doing bad things so he can punish them ? That doesn’t sound like the sort of thing that most Christians would consider normal. It’s not the sort of thing that any rational person considers to be good.
    You are sticking to the text too literally. God is not simply some logic problem to be solved by our probing minds. These stories were written by people over a thousand years ago who knew nothing of what we know now. If we go with the argument that the writers were
  • inspired
    and
  • sincere and honest
    We still realize that they are faced with the same human qualities that we ourselves possess were we to write a book on our belief.
    I realize that you are not a believer but if you were asked to describe (reinvent) God the way that your modern logic, empathy, and perspective would create...what would God be like in regards to communion with humans?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 674 by PaulK, posted 01-11-2019 12:29 AM PaulK has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 712 of 1444 (848589)
    02-11-2019 11:47 AM
    Reply to: Message 702 by AZPaul3
    01-13-2019 7:39 AM


    Re: Definition of free will
    AZPaul3 writes:
    ...at the level of an omniscient deity the outcome is already known. Regardless of the fact that said deity does not guide our decisions, it knows, I assume with perfect certainty, what decisions we will make, has known from the beginning what decisions we would make and what all the outcomes will be. So, from the level of the omniscient deity everything is known and set.
    We are speculating on the conditions at that level. I look at it this way: The Deity is essentially in charge of past,present and future interactions and events...but there is no way we can actually see the interactions and results the way they unfold. It could be that the decisions that we make in time are incorporated by the Deity into the script at the present moment that they are actualized. The deity does not simply sit around for eternity watching an eternal movie. The Deity makes the movie using ad lib actions by the characters in the script. We are co-authoring the movie with the Deitys supervision.
    In your thought experiment then, the exercise of our free will in determining the course of events as we see it, will not, cannot, change the results this omniscient deity already knows to exist.
    It is irrelevant what the Deity sees or knows. The fact is that at the moment we make our decisions they become incorporated into the movie. Perhaps some decisions and actions ultimately end up on the cutting room floor...but thats irrelevant. We still made them. The Deity merely adds us to the script...or not. All that we can do is try our best to make events worthy of historical record. One may argue that this fact eliminates our free will, but i contend that free will is overrated. Critics want free will to mean something they can decide to do that the Deity either does NOT know about or CANNOT change. This is ludicrous demon thinking.
    Doesn't that make our free will an illusion? Are we not actually automatons without any ability to change the larger outcome an omniscient sees.
    All that we cannot change is what must be. We are part of the creative process. We do NOT get to decide what remains in the script. Thus we have no choice but to try and do our best on a daily basis...with or without the reality of a Deity.
    All I'm saying is that the Deity has a viewpoint that we can't predict nor comprehend.
    You would thus argue that its irrelevant as a result and that we are destined to simply procreate and die forever.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 702 by AZPaul3, posted 01-13-2019 7:39 AM AZPaul3 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 714 by ringo, posted 02-11-2019 12:04 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 716 by AZPaul3, posted 02-11-2019 3:48 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 713 of 1444 (848590)
    02-11-2019 11:59 AM
    Reply to: Message 707 by PaulK
    01-20-2019 10:45 AM


    Re: ** FOREknowledge**
    PaulK writes:
    If all of Creation must inevitably follow a course chosen by its Creator then the Creator has full responsibility for everything that happens.
    If all of an army must follow a course charted by the generals then, of course, the buck stops with them...but each member of that army is ultimately responsible for the success of the group.
    In the case of God, one could argue that He chooses His group based on their performance in training. He does not have full responsibility for everything that happens, as each member of the group is expected to complete a task or tasks successfully.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 707 by PaulK, posted 01-20-2019 10:45 AM PaulK has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 715 by Tangle, posted 02-11-2019 12:15 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 717 of 1444 (848595)
    02-11-2019 4:15 PM
    Reply to: Message 715 by Tangle
    02-11-2019 12:15 PM


    Re: ** FOREknowledge**
    Only because He allows us the opportunity to choose. We essentially become the decisions we make. If some duffer insists that God is a fairytale and that evidence is all that counts in this world, God allows the duffer the opportunity to blow it.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 715 by Tangle, posted 02-11-2019 12:15 PM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 719 by Tangle, posted 02-11-2019 5:28 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    (1)
    Message 718 of 1444 (848596)
    02-11-2019 4:27 PM
    Reply to: Message 716 by AZPaul3
    02-11-2019 3:48 PM


    All Knowing and ALL Doing
    AZ writes:
    the question is, is the deity you experiment with here omniscient or not? If it is then I see no room for our having free will. The deity already knows what happens at every turn in every scene, has known from the start of eternity and, in fact, sees the whole story set in stone at the instance of creation.
    Point being that you don't know. Forget what the Deity knows. Just do your best.
    For an omniscient being all eternity is set within its mind from the start. All of it. Forever.
    Great! God is doing His job of being God. Why waste time trying to make a case that you have no free will? You can argue that one later if you ever get the opportunity after all of the chips have fallen where they may. Perhaps you will have no need to argue it, however.
    AZ writes:
    If, however, your contention is that we mere mortals have some kind of say in the script from this deity's point of view then that would presuppose that this god doesn't possess omniscience. Which is fine.
    We have a say in what we choose to do. We have no say in doing something that the Deity does not know about . (Or can not know about. ) Thus we can "presuppose" that God does not have omniscience but we can not prove it. Which is also fine.
    AZ writes:
    I'm partial to the idea that we humans don't have much in the way of free will in much of anything since this universe already constrains our decision space to a rather small subset of probabilities.
    We shouldn't exaggerate our potential, given reality as we see it. It is one thing to have the mental ability to hypothesize multiverses. it is quite another to be able to even effectively manage our own dust speck that we inhabit. Waiting on God to *do* everything seems pointless. I agree with those of you who preach our responsibility to make meaningful changes ourselves and not expect everyone to unite and wait for God to make the next move.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 716 by AZPaul3, posted 02-11-2019 3:48 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 720 of 1444 (848600)
    02-11-2019 5:35 PM
    Reply to: Message 715 by Tangle
    02-11-2019 12:15 PM


    Re: ** FOREknowledge**
    The whole argument, silly though it is, is what Tangle can and can not freely do and how much a hypothetical God character could or would know. So lets assume you were dealing directly with God. It may go something like this:
    GOD: Tangle, I realize you have honestly used your reasoning to discount my existence. Now that I AM evident, do you have anything to say?
    Tangle: First off, I'm not going to suddenly grovel. You have a lot of explaining to do and I have many questions. To be honest, I'm not certain I am even sane at this moment!This world has gone bonkers!
    GOD: It always has been bonkers. Humanity has had to experience this lesson.
    Tangle: Your bloody book has few solutions! And why did you order people killed? What type of tyrant are you? And why all of this silly bells and smells? Sorry...forgive me for being honest...or smite me, I suppose....
    GODTangle, you put too much stock into that book! I was around long before the book!
    Tangle: How were we to know that? You gave us brains and minds that require evidence...not fairytales! That book is all we have ever had. I don't even know if Im talking to you or to a hallucination, honestly!
    GOD: If it makes you feel any better, Phat and Faith know me no better than you do. I appreciate your honesty. Allow me to grab my pole and let's go fishing!
    Tangle: OK, but why do you need a pole to catch fish?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 715 by Tangle, posted 02-11-2019 12:15 PM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 721 by Tangle, posted 02-12-2019 2:49 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 725 of 1444 (848622)
    02-12-2019 10:13 AM
    Reply to: Message 721 by Tangle
    02-12-2019 2:49 AM


    Re: ** FOREknowledge**
    Oh, Stephen! Fryed us again!
    Of course, the internet has rebuttals to his ostentatious argument.
    Stephen Frye and God Granted most of the Christian responses are unsatisfactory for my intellect, but I see a recurring pattern amongst this line of questioning in general. The atheists always limit God to the character defined in the book. They hold the characters metaphorical feet to the fire in that regard. The book is not all that we have. What we have are the same tools that the authors of the book had. God, if God exists is more complex than can be described in a book. Second, if God could prevent every evil malady that nature throws at our species, the result would be a reality totally unlike the one we now inhabit. Pain and suffering seem to be a part of the overall human growth process. You may argue that this simply proves that natural selection and evolution are reality and that God is fantasy. So we digress.
    For the record, I thought that Dawkins response was much more rational than was Stephen Fryes:
    Dawkins writes:
    In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.
    This seems more in line with AZPaul3, who believes that we simply essentially reproduce and die...hence why worry about some magical future when our job is to maximize our present living moment. I can't quite stomach the indifference part of that world view, however. Evolution seems every bit as cruel as any God could be.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 721 by Tangle, posted 02-12-2019 2:49 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 726 by ringo, posted 02-12-2019 10:57 AM Phat has replied
     Message 728 by Tangle, posted 02-12-2019 11:41 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 727 of 1444 (848627)
    02-12-2019 11:31 AM
    Reply to: Message 726 by ringo
    02-12-2019 10:57 AM


    GOD: Complex or ET?
    ringo writes:
    Why could He not be less complex? After all, the people who wrote the book were awed by things they didn't understand. What if those things were just done by extraterrestrial technology, a few steps above ours?
    I suppose that I should consider this as a valid argument. You and jar always pointed out how I and many fundamentalist Christians wanted a God that was capable of solving every dilemma and wiping away every tear. (After smiting the rest of us for daring to rebel against His authority)
    I'll think outside my comfort zone for a moment and consider that the scenario could be true. Its like i said to Tangle, though. Evolution is every bit as cruel and unfavoring as any God that could be dreamt up. As long as we are imagining a hypothetical God, what is so wrong with the One that Jesus so lovingly called "Father"? He seems good enough for Jesus. Frankly, everything I liked about my Dad was that he could help me get out of trouble, find answers, and learn to become as successful as he was. I could live with a God like that.
    We're making the improvements that God can't (not omniscient) or won't (evil) make for us.
    God can still be omniscient and not make changes. We have no place to judge Him as evil since we are not the center of the universe. At best, we should just do it ourselves as you suggest. Judging God is beyond our pay grade.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 726 by ringo, posted 02-12-2019 10:57 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 729 by ringo, posted 02-12-2019 11:47 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 730 of 1444 (848633)
    02-12-2019 11:50 AM
    Reply to: Message 729 by ringo
    02-12-2019 11:47 AM


    Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
    ringo writes:
    Why would we have to be "the center of the universe" to know the difference between good and evil?
    We either knew good and evil because God gave us that, as described in the book, or because we evolved to understand it. Either way, Judging God is still presumptuous unless one believes that God needs to measure up to our imaginative standards.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 729 by ringo, posted 02-12-2019 11:47 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 731 by ringo, posted 02-12-2019 12:02 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 732 of 1444 (848637)
    02-12-2019 12:11 PM
    Reply to: Message 731 by ringo
    02-12-2019 12:02 PM


    Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
    They are our standards, Nobody else's. What is presumptuous is thinking that you know what the alien overlord's standards are.
    Its as simple as Bill Brights four spiritual laws.
    There are only two possible ways to know Gods mind.
    1) He gave us insight.
    2) We made it up.
    Either way is not presumptuous. The point I'm arguing against is making up a God whom you can (or should) correct. Totally puzzling.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 731 by ringo, posted 02-12-2019 12:02 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 734 by ringo, posted 02-12-2019 12:19 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 733 of 1444 (848640)
    02-12-2019 12:18 PM
    Reply to: Message 731 by ringo
    02-12-2019 12:02 PM


    Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
    According to the book, God didn't give it to us. It was against His will. We stole the knowledge, much like Prometheus stole fire.
    Even worse. If we are to hold the God of our discussion to the one in the book, so too should we own up to the fact that we are rebellious thieving humans hellbent on determining our own destiny. And the book has solutions for that.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 731 by ringo, posted 02-12-2019 12:02 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 736 by ringo, posted 02-12-2019 12:22 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 735 of 1444 (848642)
    02-12-2019 12:21 PM
    Reply to: Message 734 by ringo
    02-12-2019 12:19 PM


    Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
    It ignores the humanity-centered life (which incidentally, Christ advocated).
    This communion includes Christ. We are not simply a bunch of evolving humans making up God and Christ. If so, your point is meaningless. Why make up a character and then tell everyone they must do what the character advocates?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 734 by ringo, posted 02-12-2019 12:19 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 737 by ringo, posted 02-12-2019 12:26 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 738 of 1444 (848645)
    02-12-2019 12:28 PM
    Reply to: Message 736 by ringo
    02-12-2019 12:22 PM


    Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
    The book's solution is to love thy neighbour as thyself - i.e. grow up and solve the problems instead of relying on God to spoon-feed you the solutions.
    Again we differ. You don't trust most pastors or apologists. I don't trust the motives of socialism or socialist leaders. Jesus may be the lone exception. And i still disagree with your seemingly only solution of helping the poor at the expense of your own middle-class money while leaving the rich to their own destiny.
    If God wanted us to grow up and not need Him, He sure put a difficult edict in place. Sell all we have?? Help the poor and become homeless yourself? (And you know that is nearly true for both you and I. The difference is that you expect other socialists to take care of you while I don't trust them. At best, they will have me living in a shelter with other homeless. Some blessing!

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 736 by ringo, posted 02-12-2019 12:22 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 740 by ringo, posted 02-12-2019 12:35 PM Phat has replied

      
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