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Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1576 of 1677 (847457)
01-23-2019 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1575 by Granny Magda
01-22-2019 4:46 PM


Demons and delusions
I cant expect anyone to accept anything. It was unexplained. Just know that Ive verified that nobody tricked me. I dont really want demons to be real any more than anyone else does. But reality often shows us things we don't want.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1575 by Granny Magda, posted 01-22-2019 4:46 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1578 by ringo, posted 01-23-2019 11:42 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 1581 by Granny Magda, posted 01-23-2019 2:09 PM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 1577 of 1677 (847465)
01-23-2019 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1575 by Granny Magda
01-22-2019 4:46 PM


Re: experience with demon-possessed man
I highly suggest the book Paranormality: Why We Believe the Impossible. It was published in the US with the subtitle Why We See What Isn't There. The author is Professor Richard Wiseman
Paranormal - Wikipedia(book)
It is a very readable look at the science behind the idea of the paranormal. It is not hard science but discusses the science very well. More books that delve into how the brain creates its own reality are any by Oliver Sacks.
Oliver Sacks - Wikipedia
I think anyone actually reading these books with an open mind and actual appreciation of science, will actually rethink their belief in the supernatural or paranormal. Then again people that have such beliefs tend to have a need for those beliefs.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1575 by Granny Magda, posted 01-22-2019 4:46 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1582 by Granny Magda, posted 01-23-2019 2:18 PM Theodoric has not replied
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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1578 of 1677 (847471)
01-23-2019 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1576 by Phat
01-23-2019 3:26 AM


Re: Demons and delusions
Phat writes:
Just know that Ive verified that nobody tricked me.
As far as I'm concerned, the ONLY indication that you were not pranked is the fact (according to you) that your friends didn't gloat about pranking you. Gloating is most of the fun of pranking.
Phat writes:
I dont really want demons to be real any more than anyone else does.
I think you really do. A big part of "needing" a Sky Daddy is needing an "enemy" for Him to protect you from.
Phat writes:
But reality often shows us things we don't want.
Or that things we DO want aren't there.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1576 by Phat, posted 01-23-2019 3:26 AM Phat has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 1579 of 1677 (847488)
01-23-2019 1:54 PM


I completely understand being skeptical of the idea of demons but the facts as Phat has described them, and I as well, aren't just dismissable by the kinds of answers we've been getting. Did he lie about the blood red eyes? Can multiple voices really be "thrown" by a single voice? Would some kid coming back from a youth group meeting just happen to be able to throw his voice like that, and the other kid just happen to pretend to be demon possessed and make his eyes look red? And never break the act? And was Phat lying about the feeling of electricity in the air before he even went down to where the other boys were?
My first encounter with the idea that demons might be real happened about a decade before I became a Christian. A perfectly respectable literary critic in a literary journal, reviewing a German poet who referred to demonic activity of some sort, simply said he wasn't entirely sure such things weren't a reality. I was severely startled by that statement. I think I actually jumped in my chair. But that was the only time before I started dabbling in the occult about a year before I became a Christian that I myself had any clue that such things might be real. And I didn't take any particular position on it when I read the literary critic's comment, didn't assume the guy was wrong, didn't have any need to try to prove him wrong, or right, was just stunned at the idea anyone could think as he did and left it at that.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 1580 by ringo, posted 01-23-2019 2:07 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 1585 by Granny Magda, posted 01-23-2019 2:42 PM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1580 of 1677 (847492)
01-23-2019 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1579 by Faith
01-23-2019 1:54 PM


Faith writes:
Did he lie about the blood red eyes?
There are other alternatives between lies and truth. For one thing, memory tends to embellish the story.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1579 by Faith, posted 01-23-2019 1:54 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1584 by Phat, posted 01-23-2019 2:32 PM ringo has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 1581 of 1677 (847494)
01-23-2019 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1576 by Phat
01-23-2019 3:26 AM


Re: Demons and delusions
I cant expect anyone to accept anything.
Well okay.
I can see how it might have been convincing as a first-hand experience. I'm glad that you can appreciate how unconvincing it sounds as an anecdote.
It was unexplained.
It's likely to remain that way, especially if you reject the most parsimonious explanation.
Just know that Ive verified that nobody tricked me.
How? Like this?
Phat writes:
They did not trick me...I can read a person whom I know and determine that.
That is, with all the respect in the world, complete rubbish. You are not fallible. You can be tricked. If you serioulys believe otherwise you are being both naive and hubristic.
You don't seem to have worked very hard to investigate the possibility that you were tricked. You spoke of the multiple voice thing as though it were clearly impossible, when in actual fact, a quick google would have revealed that it is absolutely possible. Ask yourself; are you an expert on ventriloquism? Do you know the first thing about what vent's can and cannot do? Did you even try to find out?
You also seem to dismiss out of hand the possibility that your friend was mentally ill and half believed it himself, even as he faked it. It is far from unusual for crazy people to manufacture another layer of fake craziness over their genuine crazy. I've seen that sort of behaviour in person. It's worth remembering that crazy people do not necessarily have rational motivations.
I dont really want demons to be real any more than anyone else does. But reality often shows us things we don't want.
Whilst I accept that you don't specifically want demons to be real, I would take issue with that statement somewhat.
There is a sense in which you do want demons to be real. You need for them to be real since if you conclude that they are bogus, you are forced to conclude that Christianity got that wrong. You are then forced to consider the possibility that Christianity might be wrong in many other respects too. You are forced to contemplate the possibility that the Bible - and specifically the Jesus narrative - is false. After all, if there are no demons, then Jesus can't have exorcised the demon Legion from those pigs can he? In my limited experience, this sort of thinking is something that many theists are understandably reluctant to consider.
You may not want demons to be real but I would respectfully suggest that you want the alternative possibility - that there is no supernatural and that the whole thing is made-up - even less.
Mutate and Survive

On two occasions I have been asked, — "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1576 by Phat, posted 01-23-2019 3:26 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1583 by Phat, posted 01-23-2019 2:27 PM Granny Magda has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 1582 of 1677 (847500)
01-23-2019 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1577 by Theodoric
01-23-2019 9:09 AM


Re: experience with demon-possessed man
Hi Theo,
I heartily agree in recommending the works of Oliver Sacks. He was, without doubt, one of the most eloquent people ever to write about science. His books are fascinating and hugely readable without ever dumbing down.
I was especially impressed with A Leg to Stand On, Sacks' account of his own broken leg. Really all that happens is that Sacks breaks his leg whilst hiking, goes to hospital and briefly suffers from Alien Limb Syndrome, the conviction that his leg was somehow not his own... then he gets better... the end. That's kinda thin. Not many people could string that out into a decent book. Sacks made it into a great book. that takes real talent.
Mutate and Survive

On two occasions I have been asked, — "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1577 by Theodoric, posted 01-23-2019 9:09 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1583 of 1677 (847504)
01-23-2019 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1581 by Granny Magda
01-23-2019 2:09 PM


Re: Demons and delusions
You don't seem to have worked very hard to investigate the possibility that you were tricked. You spoke of the multiple voice thing as though it were clearly impossible when in actual fact, a quick google would have revealed that it is absolutely possible. Ask yourself; are you an expert on ventriloquism? Do you know the first thing about what vent's can and cannot do? Did you even try to find out?
I know these people well. There are certain keys to human nature that can be discerned.
  • If a close friend or friends attempts to "trick" you, they likely will let you in on the fact that you have been tricked eventually. There would be no motive for them to essentially lie about something that to this day we all can recall to this day. Mikee is like a little brother to me, and he is as mystified about the event as I am. The only difference is that he believes it was demons whereas I believe that it was unexplained. Mike has never lied to me about anything nor is he even the type to have a sneaky ventriloquist "friend" to trick me and then keep quiet about it for 13 years. Of course my criteria for "proof" is different from yours. Perhsaps you would ask that they take a polygraph test. I've no need to. Have you ever had someone whom you knew well inside and out attempt to trick you and then lie for 13 years? If so, I can see your argument.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1581 by Granny Magda, posted 01-23-2019 2:09 PM Granny Magda has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1596 by Granny Magda, posted 01-23-2019 3:55 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1584 of 1677 (847509)
    01-23-2019 2:32 PM
    Reply to: Message 1580 by ringo
    01-23-2019 2:07 PM


    Embellished Stories
    ringo writes:
    There are other alternatives between lies and truth. For one thing, memory tends to embellish the story.
    OK, I won't argue against that. I have, however, written about it 12 years ago and the recollections in my writings seem the same. One could argue that being a believer I would *want* the story to remain the same. I no longer have a need for convincing others to believe, however. I don't expect to change your mind anytime soon....even if I had seen a UFO, I likely wouldn't change your approach to the truthfulness or lies within the story.
    Although you likely would say from the start that UFOs are fiction and thus so was my story.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1580 by ringo, posted 01-23-2019 2:07 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1586 by ringo, posted 01-23-2019 2:44 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Granny Magda
    Member
    Posts: 2462
    From: UK
    Joined: 11-12-2007
    Member Rating: 4.0


    Message 1585 of 1677 (847513)
    01-23-2019 2:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 1579 by Faith
    01-23-2019 1:54 PM


    I completely understand being skeptical of the idea of demons but the facts as Phat has described them, and I as well, aren't just dismissable by the kinds of answers we've been getting
    I disagree. In particular, I would say that your anecdote is so incredibly banal that it is scarcely worth mentioning.
    You heard a voice. Once. Even you admit that another person would likely not have heard it.
    You experienced a fleeting audio hallucination or simply misheard an actual noise. Either event is utterly commonplace and boring.
    There is nothing here to take seriously.
    Did he lie about the blood red eyes?
    No-one is accusing Phat of lying. I think we all know him better than that.
    I am suggesting that there are more plausible explanations for his experience than demons.
    And besides; since when are red eyes so inexplicable? Did I miss a meeting?
    Can multiple voices really be "thrown" by a single voice?
    Yes. Have you actually made any attempt to answer that question by the way, or do you only intend it as rhetoric? Google is your friend...
    Would some kid coming back from a youth group meeting just happen to be able to throw his voice like that,
    How am I supposed to know? I don't know him.
    and the other kid just happen to pretend to be demon possessed and make his eyes look red?
    Hold on, why do you presume which kid was making the voice? It could have been either or both for all you know. You were not there any more than I was.
    That's the whole problem with this kind of anecdote. Phat may not have observed all of the salient details. Or he may have forgooten important bits in the interim. We have no way of knowing what the full circumstances were.
    And never break the act?
    And admit to lying?
    And was Phat lying about the feeling of electricity in the air before he even went down to where the other boys were?
    Jeez, why do you have reach straight for the "lying" bit? I never even implied that Phat was lying. Sheesh...
    Anyway, that sounds like a standard adrenaline response to a shocking and frightening stimulus. No big whoop.
    All told, I just don't see much to be impressed with here.
    Mutate and Survive
    Edited by Granny Magda, : No reason given.

    On two occasions I have been asked, — "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1579 by Faith, posted 01-23-2019 1:54 PM Faith has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1587 by Faith, posted 01-23-2019 2:45 PM Granny Magda has not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 411 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 1586 of 1677 (847514)
    01-23-2019 2:44 PM
    Reply to: Message 1584 by Phat
    01-23-2019 2:32 PM


    Re: Embellished Stories
    Phat writes:
    I don't expect to change your mind anytime soon....even if I had seen a UFO, I likely wouldn't change your approach to the truthfulness or lies within the story.
    I have seen UFOs.
    Phat writes:
    Although you likely would say from the start that UFOs are fiction and thus so was my story.
    No. The reality or fantasy of your story has nothing to do with the reality or fantasy of UFOs. However, the process of investigation is the same.

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1584 by Phat, posted 01-23-2019 2:32 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Faith 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
    Posts: 35298
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001


    (1)
    Message 1587 of 1677 (847515)
    01-23-2019 2:45 PM
    Reply to: Message 1585 by Granny Magda
    01-23-2019 2:42 PM


    I heard TWO voices on two different occasions years apart. I described them both. I was alone in both cases. They both said articulate things.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1585 by Granny Magda, posted 01-23-2019 2:42 PM Granny Magda has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1590 by Phat, posted 01-23-2019 3:22 PM Faith has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1588 of 1677 (847521)
    01-23-2019 3:12 PM
    Reply to: Message 1577 by Theodoric
    01-23-2019 9:09 AM


    Re: experience with demon-possessed man
    Richard Wiseman also has a website: Richard Wiseman
    and as I read the article from Wiki, Paranormal I think I see your reasoning and logic. The reasoning does make logical sense.
    ringo writes:
    A big part of "needing" a Sky Daddy is needing an "enemy" for Him to protect you from.
    I can agree with the reasoning that says that believers have a *need* to maintain their belief. I certainly don't plan on doubt or renunciation, although I will always entertain questioning.
    Theo writes:
    I think anyone actually reading these books with an open mind and actual appreciation of science, will actually rethink their belief in the supernatural or paranormal. Then again people that have such beliefs tend to have a need for those beliefs.
    jar always told me to "throw God away." I used to get so mad when he would say this...because to me it would be like throwing away a family member whom I knew to be real. Critics would say that I know nothing about how real or fake God is for it is impossible to verify. The wiki article says this:
    wiki writes:
    ...those who argue for the existence of the paranormal explicitly do not base their arguments on empirical evidence but rather on anecdote, testimony, and suspicion(...)Richard Wiseman, of The Committee for Skeptical Inquiry, draws attention to possible alternative explanations for perceived paranormal activity in his article, The Haunted Brain. While he recognizes that approximately 15% of people believe they have experienced an encounter with a ghost, he reports that only 1% report seeing a full-fledged ghost while the rest report strange sensory stimuli, such as seeing fleeting shadows or wisps of smoke, or the sensation of hearing footsteps or feeling a presence. Wiseman makes the claim that, rather than experiencing paranormal activity, it is activity within our own brains that creates these strange sensations. (...)It was also realized that people with higher dopamine levels have the ability to find patterns and meanings where there aren't any. This is why scientists have connected high dopamine levels with paranormal belief.
    Thus one could argue that the same brain aberrations that I have regarding compulsive gambling, as well as higher dopamine levels, magnify the chances of my propensity towards belief.
    I'm not disputing the logic of these alternative explanations. I remain adamant that what I experienced was and is definitely unexplained, however.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1577 by Theodoric, posted 01-23-2019 9:09 AM Theodoric has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1589 by ringo, posted 01-23-2019 3:21 PM Phat has replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 411 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 1589 of 1677 (847526)
    01-23-2019 3:21 PM
    Reply to: Message 1588 by Phat
    01-23-2019 3:12 PM


    Re: experience with demon-possessed man
    Phat writes:
    I remain adamant that what I experienced was and is definitely unexplained, however.
    What bugs me is when somebody acknowledges that something is unexplained - and then they explain it. If you really thought your experience was unexplained, you wouldn't try to explain it with demons.

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1588 by Phat, posted 01-23-2019 3:12 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1591 by Phat, posted 01-23-2019 3:26 PM ringo has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1590 of 1677 (847527)
    01-23-2019 3:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 1587 by Faith
    01-23-2019 2:45 PM


    The Church vs Critical Thinking
    I fully believe you. The ongoing controversy and battle between secular science and orthodox belief likely will never end. I don't take one side or another. This is why the "church" disagrees with me...they claim I am sitting on a fence, as would you. My response is that I must be honest with myself and others.
    Do I believe in God, Creator of all seen and unseen, Who exists apart from human verification? Yes. Do I believe that Jesus Christ was in the beginning with God and is essentially Gods human character as part of a Trinitarian dynamic? Yes.
    However, I don't believe that the church (the born again set apart folks) have any more insights into this than I do. They simply have more firm and unwavering beliefs. I am as honest in regards to my descriptions and experiences and beliefs as I can be.
    Faith writes:
    I'm rereading an orthodox classic that shows how the church has been compromised by the rejection of Bible inerrancy and accommodation to the world on history and science and calls us back to inerrancy. This is Francis Schaeffer's The Great Evangelical Disaster written in 1984. Perhaps you feel you understand this perspective already, or maybe you've even read the book, but if not I'd recommend it as antidote to the heretics like Bart Ehrman. Unfortunately what Shaeffer was warning about has only become much worse since then.
    I will always be open to questioning. I read both pro and con with equal respect, though for the record I chose years ago to become a believer that asked Jesus Christ into my heart and mind. I'm not akin to throwing that away anytime soon.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1587 by Faith, posted 01-23-2019 2:45 PM Faith has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1594 by Faith, posted 01-23-2019 3:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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