Discussion With A Conservative Pastor: I CANT & Phat Only..for now

Hi Phat

Thought I would come back and get this one.

Phat writes: How do you interpret the following scripture? James 2:14-17 writes: 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. KJV

James was the pastor of the church at Jerusalem. So He had his biological Jewish brethren and his Gentile born again brethren and he is addressing them. They are all saved and born again so they have eternal life. But they are admonished to work not for salvation but because of salvation.

Why didn't you put the next verse in there?

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2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

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It is impossible to show your faith without works.
But I can show you my faith by my works.

But salvation does not come by works faith produces works. If a person tells you they have faith in God and you do not see any fruit of that faith it is a dead faith.

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Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

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We are saved by faith but we are saved to walk in good works.

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John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

10:30 I and my Father are one.

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We are saved by faith. This makes us Jesus sheep.
Jesus says His sheep hear Him and follows Him.
Those who do not follow Jesus is not His sheep.
Makes no difference how many time one has been baptized.
And joined a church. They have believed in vain.
Not truly hearing and obeying the word.

Phat writes: In addition, it has recently been brought up that in the parable of the Good Samaritan, help was extended beyond the immediate group. Some believers maintain that the church need only take care of its own. Comments?

A parable is a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritrual lesson.

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Luke
10:31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

10:32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

10:34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

10:35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

10:36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

10:37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

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The lesson of this parable is found in verse 36 when Jesus asked who was neighbour to the man that fell among the thieves.

Now if you want to find out who Jesus was talking too you have to go back to verse 25and you find a young lawyer who is tempting Jesus. This lawyer wanted to know what he had to do to inherit eternal life.

This young lawyer was not a saved person just a self righteous religionist. Wanting to obtain eternal life his way.

God Bless,

Hi Phat

Phat writes: I'm just not sure what road of suffering He wants me to travel. Nor do I trust many of the religious in this world.

What makes you think you must suffer?

God does have a job for you to do. You just need to find that job and get busy.

I don't trust religion or the religious. Most of them belong to the devil.

PhatThe critics would agree, and say that organized religion is brainwashing people.

I say the critics are the ones that have been brainwashed.

Phat writes: But tell me...can we ever have both, or is accepting God making a definite choice?

It is a definite choice to receive His offer of a free full pardon and then dedicating one's life to serving God. If you want to have a full peaceful life. Phat I don't have a worry in the world. God has always supplied what I needed never failing me once in my 79 years. As I look back I did not agree with Him on many occasions but He was right.

Phat writes: Right any better than the Left or is everybody simply human and fallen...in need of a savior?

We are all sinners in need of a savior.
When we accept that savior we are still sinners
But we are not under the penalty of sin.

God Bless,

We are all sinners in need of a savior. When we accept that savior we are still sinners But we are not under the penalty of sin.

ringo and I argue all the time about this stuff. To his credit, he at least knows the value of the message (to help others and not judge them) but he argues even on behalf of satan...arguing that a loving God would never allow hell to exist. One characteristic of my critics Tangle and ringo is that they limit God to a character in a book. They simply won't believe that God existed before the authors even wrote about Him. \

At best, they argue about what the God of the book did. Some of them are honest in their denial of belief, however. They have bought into the argument that the book (Bible) is a product of humans. Additionally, they honestly see no evidence that God exists. Tangle has a vendetta against our "foolish" beliefs. ringo simply sees logic as his guiding light. Logic and evidence. Comments?

Hi Phat,

Phat writes: ringo and I argue all the time about this stuff.

Those three thing are facts.

Phat writes: To his credit, he at least knows the value of the message

Not the message in this:

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We are all sinners in need of a savior.
When we accept that savior we are still sinners
But we are not under the penalty of sin.

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If he did he would change his argument.

Phat writes: but he argues even on behalf of satan...arguing that a loving God would never allow hell to exist.

But a just God would require a hell. Which He is.

Phat writes: One characteristic of my critics Tangle and ringo is that they limit God to a character in a book.

Actually they limit Him to the abilities of mankind.

Phat writes: They simply won't believe that God existed before the authors even wrote about Him.

This is the reason I say they limit Him to the abilities of mankind. They believe He is not God as He is a product of the thoughts of mankind, therefore He does not exist other than in the minds of some deluded people like Phat and ICANT.

Phat writes: They have bought into the argument that the book (Bible) is a product of humans.

27% of the old testament was predictions about coming events.

Over 1,000 of those predictions have come true. Many are yet to come true. But so far they are coming true at a 100% accuracy rate.

Show me any other predictors that have that rate of fulfilled predictions.

Phat writes: Additionally, they honestly see no evidence that God exists.

Even a blind person sitting in a forest can see evidence that God exists.

I don't think that is the problem. I think he can't dare face the reality that he is not the captain of his own destiny.

Phat writes: ringo simply sees logic as his guiding light. Logic and evidence. Comments?

ringo would not recognize evidence if he stumbled over it.

You have to be looking for evidence before you can find it.

God Bless,

I always respected our members Cavediver and Son Goku. They knew their field of study consensus and tentative evidence quite well. I too have always had an interest in Cosmology to a layman's curiosity. In light of our discussion, I have some questions.

Do you believe or have any evidence in regards to the idea that the earth is Gods focus or do you believe He may have many forms of life throughout the universe (and maybe, hypothetically, multiverses) whom He is involved with?

Keep in mind that we humans tend to think we are the center of things.

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Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile

Hi Phat

Phat writes: I always respected our members Cavediver and Son Goku.

I learned a lot from them even though cavediver got exasperated at the way I asked him questions.

Phat writes: Do you believe or have any evidence in regards to the idea that the earth is Gods focus or do you believe He may have many forms of life throughout the universe (and maybe, hypothetically, multiverses) whom He is involved with?

There is no mention of such in the Bible of any such events. But since God is eternal and all powerful why would He be restricted to one experiment with creatures who He gives free will. There could be thousands of universes. Maybe He will let me have my own universe one day to be responsible for.

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Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

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Phat writes: Keep in mind that we humans tend to think we are the center of things.

Yes we seem to think a lot more about our importance than we really are.

Especially when we get to the point we are telling the creator of the universe how He should rule and run His estate.

Our thoughts are no where near to God's thought.
Our ways are no where near to God's ways.

Yet puny little man shakes his fist in the face of God like we can change what He is doing. Or the way He is doing it.

God Bless,

Fixed. Post had a wrong address.

Merry Christmas EvC.

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Merry Christmas to you and your family. May you both have a blessed Christmas and a healthy New Year and may your flock grow in wisdom and be blessed in 2019.
Thanks for answering my questions. I hope to learn more this coming year and strengthen my faith while maintaining my balance with the secular wisdom learned here at EvC. I hope that we all grow in the knowledge that is truly important for our lives.

ICANT writes: But since God is eternal and all powerful why would He be restricted to one experiment with creatures who He gives free will. There could be thousands of universes. Maybe He will let me have my own universe one day to be responsible for.

I would have enough of a challenge simply being responsible for a family or a small flock. Perhaps I could learn to be responsible for a country at best...but a planet..or a universe would require supernatural wisdom and impartation.

Also I responded over in the Creation thread. I am convinced that belief in God is basic and unconnected to strict logic, reason, or reality. It is a choice and a decision. I feel as if I will never be able to convince anyone nor will I ever convince them. The reason is not that I have weak arguments, though to be honest, some of my opponents here have very good arguments. I have gotten to know some interesting online personalities here. And in fact, I feel as if everyone was meant to believe in the resurrection, they would. Ironically, ringo gives one of the strongest arguments for believers...even though he claims not to be one. Perhaps we waste too much time trying to convince them, Pastor.

One Bible Study that I would enjoy, however, concerns challenging Percys idea that once Jesus died, the Apostles made up the story in order to keep their livelihood going. Granted human nature is sinful to the core, but my question is why people put so much energy into trying to challenge the resurrection rather than simply accepting it as a belief. I conclude that many folks just don't want to believe. Either that or they await you or I somehow coming up with a logical argument that will convince them. What do you think?

Finally...I shared a link to videos by an apologist whom I respect: Craig Parson.
Bible On Trial I
Bible On Trial 2
Bible On Trial 3
Bible On Trial 4
Bible On Trial 5
Bible On Trial 6
If you get a chance, watch one and tell me if you would share it with your flock. They were not received well here at EvC, though I think that a lot of thought and information went into them. Critics will say that they are simply attempts at selling religion, but I have been open-minded enough to read what the critics say also. Seems the critics earn a living being critical and skeptical. Thus, the argument of motive applies equally to both sides.

As I examine my own belief, I confess that it is sometimes challenged quite harshly. I choose to not doubt that God exists and that Jesus is in my heart. I chose to ask Him in 25 years ago, and I have never dared to doubt my salvation. Just the fact that I feel like opening up publically about my faith and questions here on this forum...of all places...confirms Gods direction in my life.

I never intended to come to EvC to preach. I must admit that at one time I sought to convert members to my way of belief, but found them challenging me instead...and I did not run, as many Christians would have done. I grew to like the forum and the many discussions we had. I feel as if i had gone instead to a Christian forum, my faith never would have been tested nor would I understand how the critics of Christianity think and why they feel the way they do.
GDR(Greg) is one of my favorite Christians here...as he shows love to a forum of skeptics and critics who rarely if ever agree with him.

As we get ready for a New Year in 2019, there is much that needs discussing in this world we live in. Here is a video from a young man who talks a lot on YouTube. The Plastic Straw Dilemma

In this one, he discusses the concept of selective empathy.
Tell me what you think.

Is selective empathy one of the global problems related to human nature? Critics say that religion won't help the world. We believe that Jesus will. But how will this global awareness come about? I feel that simply sharing the Gospel no longer works for a skeptical and educated world.

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How were your holidays? Did you ever get a chance to watch the videos that I sent you?

I wanted to ask you also about your opinion of the TV Evangelists. Are any of them honestly seeking God or are they seeking fame, deception, and notoriety?

Finally, what do you think of this question?

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Where did you go? Im guessing that you are fasting from social media and getting back to your primary job of being a Pastor, which must involve a lot of prayer and sacrifice from your own free time. I had some more questions to continue our discussion. Besides, I am testing a theory which says that the more I talk to you, the angrier some of my secular friends will get. I have not yet written you off as a conman or willfully ignorant, as they have done. Comments?

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Hi Phat,

We had a wonderful holiday period with too much good food. And a lot of good fellowship. Hope yours was the same. We been real busy with the holiday's and getting ready for the second semester of college classes we have at our church. I have also been having a lot of problems with my artificial knee implant.

Phat writes: I would have enough of a challenge simply being responsible for a family or a small flock. Perhaps I could learn to be responsible for a country at best...but a planet..or a universe would require supernatural wisdom and impartation.

Well Paul said we don't know what we will be like when we meet Jesus but that we would be like Him. I think that would qualify either of us to oversee a universe.

Phat writes: It is a choice and a decision. I feel as if I will never be able to convince anyone nor will I ever convince them.

Back in the early sixties when I first started preaching I thought it was my job to convince people they needed to be saved. Later I discovered I was trying to do the work of the Holy Spirit. It is His job to convict people and my job to present the word to them. I have had a few converts in my lifetime that I convinced but they were unconvinced still.

So you are right it is a decision that people have to make on their own. That is why we call it free will. They are free to believe in God and trust Him if they so desire too. They can also choose to not believe in God as many here have done. So I don't try to convert people today I only try to present the Word of God where it can be understood.

Phat writes: but my question is why people put so much energy into trying to challenge the resurrection rather than simply accepting it as a belief.

They refuse to believe because they do not want to have a higher authority than themselves to be responsible too.

And no we will never be able to present a logical argument that will convince them, of anything. I simply want to present the alternative so when they stand before God at their judgment they will be without excuse.

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Antiquities 18:63
The standard text of Josephus reads as follows:

About this time lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was the achiever of extraordinary deeds and was a teacher of those who accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When he was indicted by the principal men among us and Pilate condemned him to be crucified, those who had come to love him originally did not cease to do so; for he appeared to them on the third day restored to life, as the prophets of the Deity had foretold these and countless other marvelous things about him, and the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day. (All Josephus citations, except the next, are from P. L. Maier, ed./trans., Josephus –The Essential Works (Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1994).

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Josephus.
This statement of a Jewish historian was written not long after the death and resurrection of Christ. Much more evidence of Christ than the scientific story of creation.

Phat writes: Seems the critics earn a living being critical and skeptical.

I am critical and skeptical, that is the reason I have spent 50 years studying Greek and Hebrew so I can understand what God said and not have to take what someone else says it means.

Phat writes: Critics say that religion won't help the world.

I agree that religion won't help the world, not will it help anyone.

To fix our problems people need to be born again. That is born of God. When a person is born again of the Holy Spirit they become a new creature with a new outlook on life and a different lifestyle.

Most people who claim to be Christians have not been born again so they are the same old person pretending to be a child of God.

Phat writes: I feel that simply sharing the Gospel no longer works for a skeptical and educated world.

But that is all you can do. You can't change anybody only they can accept a change of themselves they can't even produce the change, only God can do that.

God Bless,

Hi Phat,

Phat writes: How were your holidays? Did you ever get a chance to watch the videos that I sent you?

I watched the first one and thought it was pretty good. I will get around to the others later.

Phat writes: I wanted to ask you also about your opinion of the TV Evangelists.

99.9 % are in it for fame and fortune with the latter being the most important.

Phat writes: Finally, what do you think of this question?

That question being: Why is Christianity right?

Let me define what I believe to be Christian or Christianity.
It is a lifestyle of living a life like Christ did during His 33.5 years here on earth in a human body. He lived a sinless life. I can't and therefore do not claim to be a Christian. I just claim to be a born again child of God.

The thing that separates Christ from all the other religious founders is that He is alive after being crucified and they are all dead.

God Bless,

Hi Phat,

Phat writes: Where did you go? Im guessing that you are fasting from social media and getting back to your primary job of being a Pastor, which must involve a lot of prayer and sacrifice from your own free time.

I have been pretty busy lately.

I preach at least 3 messages a week and sometimes as many as 5. It usually takes 8 hours of study, prayer, and preparation for each message. I have homebound members that have to be visited on a regular basis besides visitors to the church. In 2018 we knocked on over 2400 doors. One week out of the year is sent at summer camp, 4 days at State meetings, 4 days at national meetings. A fifth Saturday meeting every fifth Saturday. A ladies meeting somewhere 1 Saturday out of the month. Plus all the other things that have to be done around the church. I have physical therapy for my knee which takes 2 hours 3 days a week. So I find that most the time I don't have anything to do between midnight and daylight. That is the reason most of my posts are during those hours. Right now I had a fall Wednesday on my bad knee so I am not doing much so I am posting.

Phat writes: I have not yet written you off as a conman or willfully ignorant, as they have done.

I am no conman, I may come over as willfully ignorant sometimes by the way I word certain questions or approach a subject but everything I say or do has a purpose.

In school I maintained a A average through the first 12 years of school except the 7 grade. I attended school in Niagra Falls that year and they were on an accelerated program of study. The first day of class we were given a test and the second day we had assigned seats with those with close scores on the test being seated together. As we studied and started making A's the work got harder and the grades went down to C's. Making us study more to get the grades up to A's. But then the work got harder. At the end of the 7th grade I could read at 1500 words per minutes in our reading class. In math there was 3 of us doing 2nd year calculus at the end of the year.

Ten years after I graduated from high school I started college and maintained an A average even while taking Hebrew and Greek language study.

I have built roads, bridges multi story buildings and homes as well as churches. In building a home I can do anything from draw the blueprints and get them approved, clearing the lot with a bulldozer, and anything between that doing the finish touching up of the paint and cleaning up. That includes building the cabinets, doing all the
electrical, plumbing, block and cement work, framing, and drywall. Plus run my own business.

So I would not classify myself as an idiot.

Unless I have to accept assertions as evidence for how the universe began to exist and life began to exist as well as there is no absolute truth in order to be smart I guess I could be classified as a certified idiot.

But one thing I know for sure is that I am not a fool.

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Psalm 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

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I believe in God and I trust Him to do what He said He would do.

God Bless,

I have to leave to go visit my 95-year-old Mother at her assisted living facility. Its always an interesting time out there. All of her co-residents come up and talk to me also. I am off work for a week due to my (successful) eye surgery on Tuesday. Its amazing what modern medicine can do...but I'll respond to thee posts later. Hope your knee heals promptly....you sound busier at your age than I am at mine.(59)

ICANT writes: I have built roads, bridges multi story buildings and homes as well as churches. In building a home I can do anything from draw the blueprints and get them approved, clearing the lot with a bulldozer, and anything between that doing the finish touching up of the paint and cleaning up. That includes building the cabinets, doing all the electrical, plumbing, block and cement work, framing, and drywall. Plus run my own business.

My Father was a general contractor. He built over 100 houses here in Denver during his life and died at age 60 of cancer. He was not a religious man in that he never talked about Jesus, but he always thought of others. In fact, this was one of his favorite songs:
Others.

I have a question, though.

ICANT writes: ...In 2018 we knocked on over 2400 doors.

What was the reason? Did you tell everyone the same thing? Do you believe that it is your duty and call to tell everyone about Jesus and urge them to be open about a relationship with the living God? (I am guessing the answer is yes) and...if so....what of people such as my Daddy? Do you think he was given that opportunity at some point? Also...do you honestly worry that the Creator of all seen and unseen...the Living God of the universe, considers it important that every single person accepts a relationship with the living Jesus? (His character) or do you believe that He understands why many people...such as the ones here at EvC who have rejected the dogma of organized religion
don't ask Him? In other words, since they believe with their heart and mind that insufficient evidence exists that God is alive or exists does this provide them the right to live as good people without accepting Him? Personally, I think that this issue is between them and God.

I remember my Daddy as having a loving giving heart, but also a man that had not fully learned to be honest with himself and open up. I would have no guilt over missing the opportunity to simply share the Gospel with someone IF I knew that they already knew the basic message...and would leave it up to the Creator to reach them at some point now or shortly after they die. In other words, I won't feel guilty simply for not pushing Jesus onto them. Comments?

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