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Author | Topic: Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Collectively, we are as expert as anybody can be. You don't get to challenge objective reality just because you don't like it. ringo writes:
. Agreed. And none of us is an expert on it. There is only one reality.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
If by "cult" we mean "mind-control cult", then fundamentalist Christian churches fit the description very well. Encouraging you to accept church dogma without evidence (or despite evidence) is attempted mind-control. Blaming things on demons is attempted mind-control. One thing I might note, however...and that is your description of this particular church as a strong religious cult. If that is your criteria, likely 30% of protestant churches fall under your cult definition.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I don't. I just wish you'd stop pretending that your dogmas "make sense".
Why do you keep insisting that churches become scientists rather than believers? Phat writes:
We have an explanation, the same explanation that we have for Gollum's Ring. Besides, much of the evidence is controversial. The empty tomb arguments surrounding Jesus, for example. There is no clear nor concise explanation. Only different cases for or against.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
And what if He didn't want you to jump off a bridge? You can't just embrace one side of an "if" and ignore the other. What if there's a special place in hell for people who believe?
IF God desired that we take a leap of Faith, what harm is there in so doing? Phat writes:
Sure there are. He could be conning you. Or more likely, the shamans are conning you. There are no good reasons to doubt that trusting God...even hypothetically...is somehow harmful.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Why would you say that? Except that you wish it was true.
We all know that Gollum was meant to be fiction. We have no such conclusion from Biblical writings. Phat writes:
The Bible.
Tell me...what specifically have you read and studied which led you to your conclusions? Phat writes:
Why would a bunch of goobers who BELIEVE the Bible have an opinion more valuable than somebody who approaches it more objectively? A random guy in Canada who hangs out at the library has nothing apart from his intuitive wisdom with which to challenge the Biblical scholars.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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GDR writes:
How they are "meant" or what they purport to be is irrelevant. I have a book that purports to be the "true" biography of James Bond. Jim Hawkins was an eyewitness to the events in Treasure Island. It is common practice in fiction to create elaborate back stories about how the story came to light: one survivor managed to make his way back through the jungle, a message was found in a bottle, etc. Pretending that the story is true doesn't make the story true.
We know Gollum was a fictional character. The Gospels were clearly meant to be understood as historical. GDR writes:
It doesn't matter what they intended. All that matters is whether or not the material is factual - and there's no reason to think that it is. You can argue that they made it all up for some unknown reason, or that they got it partly, or all wrong, but they are clearly written to be believed as historical.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You're 100% wrong. Do you know what "objectively" means at all? You should have said, "The problem with reading the Bible SUBJECTIVELY is that you yourself decide what is and is not possible."
The problem with reading the Bible objectively is that you yourself decide what is and is not possible. Phat writes:
Maybe that should be part of it - but the most important part of analyzing it objectively is whether or not it matches reality. And since there is no objective evidence that the "Holy Spirit" exists, you can not objectively conclude that the passage is true.
To be objective, one has to question the intent, experience, and honesty of the original authors. Phat writes:
How is that "tainted"? The conclusions are correct.
In contrast, your objectivity taints the quest from the beginning. You would claim that "holy men of God cant be moved by God any more than CS Lewis could be moved by Gollums Ring". You would claim that " Since Resurrections don't happen, (according to the best science we have, ) then the stories were clearly made up." Phat writes:
No. It doesn't "presuppose" any such thing. It concludes that your stories about God and Jesus are fiction.
In other words, your objectivity is clearly grounded in what we have in known reality and presupposes that God is fiction and that Jesus is an amalgamation similar to Elmer Gantry. Phat writes:
Why do you keep repeating that same lie? I have told you more than once that I started out believing. I believed the same nonsense that you believe until I found out that it isn't true.
Besides....you would claim that God is fiction even before we got to the Upper Room. Phat writes:
That doesn't answer the question. The question was in response to your Message 1621, "A random guy in Canada who hangs out at the library has nothing apart from his intuitive wisdom with which to challenge the Biblical scholars." So to again answer your question:
ringo writes:
Because at some point the goobers were there. They recorded what happened. Not what they wanted to happen or were trying to sell. Why would a bunch of goobers who BELIEVE the Bible have an opinion more valuable than somebody who approaches it more objectively? We're talking about Bible scholars here, not the Bible authors. Why would you trust them more than yourself or myself, especially when you can see that their doctrines don't fit what the Bible actually says?
Phat writes:
Reality does trump belief. What part of that do you not understand? And to be fair, you are trying to sell the idea that reality (as understood by humans) trumps belief from day 1.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
So you admit that your only argument is, "Nuh uh."
Well then you are simply wrong about reality. Phat writes:
What does that mean? No conclusion is ever final. There is always room for new evidence to tweak the conclusion, or even overthrow it completely. Your conclusions are premature. The problem with your conclusion is that it is final. If there was evidence that falsified your conclusion, you still wouldn't let go of it. That's why your opinions on reality don't count for much.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
A couple of weeks ago, I came across Kapyong on another forum. I thought I remembered the name and the topic was similar. Kapyong seems to have been quite a character.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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