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Author Topic:   Superiority of the 'Protestant Canon'?
AlexCaledin
Member (Idle past 249 days)
Posts: 41
From: Samara, Russia
Joined: 10-22-2016


Message 151 of 154 (825223)
12-10-2017 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Phat
11-30-2017 6:21 PM



- speaking of conclusions, reality and links - this one is interesting)

https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/albert_einstein_100298


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Phat, posted 11-30-2017 6:21 PM Phat has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1366
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 152 of 154 (826140)
12-23-2017 12:45 AM


Baptist publisher has a timeline, "New Testament Canonization Process"
The work is:

HOLMAN STUDENT BIBLE DICTIONARY
BY KAREN DOCKREY
JOHNNIE & PHYLLIS GODWIN
(1993 HOLMAN BIBLE PUBLISHERS; NASHVILLE, TENNESSEE)

There is a graph on page 15, and I am presenting it horizontally, with a very changed format. I am skipping no words, but don't consider this a precise quote due to the radically changed format to make my quote.

quote:

NEW TESTAMENT CANONIZATION PROCESS

0-180 A.D. Early Fathers quote Apocryphal books as Scripture: first challenged by Origen

200 Muratorian Canon Lacks: Hebrews 3 John

250 Origens New Testament Lacks: Hebrews James 2 Peter 2 &3 John Jude

300 Eusebius New Testament Lacks: Hebrews James 2 Peter 2 &3 John Jude Doubts authorship of Revelation

400New Testament Fixed by the Council of Carthage



    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1366
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 153 of 154 (847789)
01-27-2019 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Faith
06-17-2017 7:04 PM


Pope Damascus I (ruled 366-384) was recognized as THE Christian authority in 376
Faith posted in #122

quote:

Perhaps you have fallen for Roman Catholic bogus history. There was no Romanism until the papacy was officially established in the 7th century and there were plenty of canons developing before that.

Post 124

quote:

It was when the Bishop of Rome got called Universal Bishop in 606 AD that the papacy was born and the Roman Church became a recognizable entity

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Damasus_I

quote:

Pope Saint
Damasus I
Saintdamasus.jpg
19th-century imagined portrait
Papacy began 1 October 366
Papacy ended 11 December 384
Predecessor Liberius
Successor Siricius
Personal details
Birth name Damasus
Born c. 305
Rome
Died 11 December 384
Rome, Western Roman Empire

Pope Damasus I (/ˈdæməsəs/; c. 305 – 11 December 384) was Bishop of Rome, from October 366 to his death in 384. He presided over the Council of Rome of 382 that determined the canon or official list of Sacred Scripture.[1] He spoke out against major heresies in the church (including Apollinarianism and Macedonianism) and encouraged production of the Vulgate Bible with his support for St. Jerome. He helped reconcile the relations between the Church of Rome and the Church of Antioch, and encouraged the veneration of martyrs.


Later

quote:

Council of Rome of 382 and the Biblical canon
One of the important works of Pope Damasus was to preside in the Council of Rome of 382 that determined the canon or official list of Sacred Scripture. The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, states: A council probably held at Rome in 382 under St. Damasus gave a complete list of the canonical books of both the Old Testament and the New Testament (also known as the 'Gelasian Decree' because it was reproduced by Gelasius in 495), which is identical with the list given at Trent. American Catholic priest and historian William Jurgens stated: "The first part of this decree has long been known as the Decree of Damasus, and concerns the Holy Spirit and the seven-fold gifts. The second part of the decree is more familiarly known as the opening part of the Gelasian Decree, in regard to the canon of Scripture: De libris recipiendis vel non recipiendis. It is now commonly held that the part of the Gelasian Decree dealing with the accepted canon of Scripture is an authentic work of the Council of Rome of 382 A.D. and that Gelasius edited it again at the end of the fifth century, adding to it the catalog of the rejected books, the apocrypha. It is now almost universally accepted that these parts one and two of the Decree of Damasus are authentic parts of the Acts of the Council of Rome of 382 A.D. (Jurgens, Faith of the Early Fathers)

St. Jerome, the Vulgate and the Canon
Pope Damasus appointed St Jerome as his confidential secretary. Invited to Rome originally to a synod of 382 convened to end the schism of Antioch, he made himself indispensable to the pope, and took a prominent place in his councils. Jerome spent three years (382–385) in Rome in close intercourse with Pope Damasus and the leading Christians. Writing in 409, Jerome remarked, "A great many years ago when I was helping Damasus, bishop of Rome with his ecclesiastical correspondence, and writing his answers to the questions referred to him by the councils of the east and west..."[19]

In order to put an end to the marked divergences in the western texts of that period, Damasus encouraged the highly respected scholar Jerome to revise the available Old Latin versions of the Bible into a more accurate Latin on the basis of the Greek New Testament and the Septuagint, resulting in the Vulgate. According to Protestant biblical scholar, F.F. Bruce, the commissioning of the Vulgate was a key moment in fixing the biblical canon in the West.[20]

Jerome devoted a very brief notice to Damasus in his De Viris Illustribus, written after Damasus' death: "he had a fine talent for making verses and published many brief works in heroic metre. He died in the reign of the emperor Theodosius at the age of almost eighty".[21]


He was perhaps the most powerful pusher of the Council of Nicaea, when the Eastern Empire seemed to have more supporters of Arius than the Roman Catholic Nicaean invention. (nevermind the Manichaeans and others outnumbered Catholics/Eastern Orthodox as well)

quote:

Relations with the Eastern Church
The Eastern Church, in the person of St. Basil of Caesarea, earnestly sought the aid and encouragement of Damasus against an apparently triumphant Arianism. Damasus, however, harbored some degree of suspicion against the great Cappadocian Doctor of the Church. In the matter of the Meletian Schism at Antioch, Damasus—together with St. Athanasius, the patriarch of Alexandria, and his successor, Peter II of Alexandria—sympathized with the party of Paulinus as more sincerely representative of Nicene orthodoxy. On the death of Meletius he sought to secure the succession for Paulinus and to exclude Flavian.[23] He supported the appeal of the Christian senators to Emperor Gratian for the removal of the altar of Victory from the Senate House,[24] and lived to welcome the famous edict of Theodosius I, "De fide Catholica" (27 February 380),[25] which proclaimed as the religion of the Roman State that doctrine which Saint Peter had preached to the Romans and of which Damasus was head.[12]

During his papacy, Peter II of Alexandria was obliged for a while to seek refuge in Rome from the persecuting Arians. He was received by Damasus, who sympathised with him and gave him support against the Arians.[12] This reconciled the relations between the Catholic Church and the Church of Antioch, which both supported the Church of Alexandria.


The letter from Jerome is dated 376 or 377.

(Faith will ignore this one)

quote:

Letter of Jerome to Damasus
Further information: Letter of Jerome to Pope Damasus
The letters from Jerome to Damasus are examples of the primacy of the See of Peter:

Yet, though your greatness terrifies me, your kindness attracts me. From the priest I demand the safe-keeping of the victim, from the shepherd the protection due to the sheep. Away with all that is overweening; let the state of Roman majesty withdraw. My words are spoken to the successor of the fisherman, to the disciple of the cross. As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built! This is the house where alone the paschal lamb can be rightly eaten. This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails. But since by reason of my sins I have betaken myself to this desert which lies between Syria and the uncivilized waste, I cannot, owing to the great distance between us, always ask of your sanctity the holy thing of the Lord. Consequently I here follow the Egyptian confessors who share your faith, and anchor my frail craft under the shadow of their great argosies. I know nothing of Vitalis; I reject Meletius; I have nothing to do with Paulinus. He that gathers not with you scatters; he that is not of Christ is of Antichrist.[22]


Faith will ignore the Eastern Emperor declaring that ONLY Nicene Christianity is to be legal. (Feb 27, 380)

Faith will ignore the fact that this declaration came BEFORE the First Council of Constantinople (May 381)

Yet she still says the Councils were "fair" and "not stacked".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodosius_I

quote:

Definition of orthodoxy and de-legitimation of non-orthodox Christian creeds
On 27 February 380, together with Gratian and Valentinian II, Theodosius issued the decree "Cunctos populos", the so-called Edict of Thessalonica, recorded in the Codex Theodosianus xvi.1.2. This declared the Nicene Trinitarian Christianity to be the only legitimate imperial religion and the only one entitled to call itself Catholic. Other Christians he described as "foolish madmen".[33] He also ended official state support for the traditional polytheist religions and customs.[34]

On 26 November 380, two days after he had arrived in Constantinople, Theodosius expelled the non-Nicene bishop, Demophilus of Constantinople, and appointed Meletius patriarch of Antioch, and Gregory of Nazianzus, one of the Cappadocian Fathers from Cappadocia (today in Turkey), patriarch of Constantinople. Theodosius had just been baptized, by bishop Ascholius of Thessalonica, during a severe illness, as was common in the early Christian world.[citation needed]

In May 381, Theodosius summoned a new ecumenical council at Constantinople (see First Council of Constantinople) to repair the schism between East and West on the basis of Nicene orthodoxy.[35] "The council went on to define orthodoxy, including the mysterious Third Person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, who, though equal to the Father, 'proceeded' from Him, whereas the Son was 'begotten' of Him."[36] The council also "condemned the Apollonarian and Macedonian heresies, clarified jurisdictions of the state church of the Roman Empire according to the civil boundaries of dioceses and ruled that Constantinople was second in precedence to Rome."[36] The death of Valens, the Arians' protector, probably damaged the standing of the Homoian faction.


Interesting timeline.

It got more intense later

quote:

Between 389–392 he promulgated the "Theodosian decrees"[37] (instituting a major change in his religious policies),[38]:116 which removed non-Nicene Christians from church office and abolished the last remaining expressions of Roman religion by making its holidays into workdays, banned blood sacrifices, closed Roman temples, confiscated temple endowments and disbanded the Vestal Virgins.[39] The practices of taking auspices and witchcraft were punished. Theodosius refused to restore the Altar of Victory in the Senate House, as asked by non-Christian senators.[38]:115

....

In 393 he issued a comprehensive law that prohibited any public non-Christian religious customs,[48] and was particularly oppressive to Manicheans.[49] He is likely to have discontinued the ancient Olympic Games, whose last record of celebration was in 393, though archeological evidence indicates that some games were still held after this date.[50]


The article, on the First Council of Constantinople, says Emperor Theodosius' Constantinople was NOT the religion of Pope Damascus, quite the contrary:

quote:

Theodosius' strong commitment to Nicene Christianity involved a calculated risk because Constantinople, the imperial capital of the Eastern Empire, was solidly Arian. To complicate matters, the two leading factions of Nicene Christianity in the East, the Alexandrians and the supporters of Meletius in Antioch, were "bitterly divided ... almost to the point of complete animosity".[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/.../First_Council_of_Constantinople


From the recognized SEAT OF PETER sat Pope Damascus, who rules from 366 to 384.

He is the Pope from the old Western Empire - Rome.

He is not to be confused with the Western Emperor.

The Church and State were never the same thing.

But the Roman Catholic Church leader, Pope Damascus had his strong pro-COUNCIL OF NICAEA views (366 on), while the East Roman Emperor Theodosius did not come to power until 379, and THEN THEODOSIUS DEMANDED HIS EMPIRE FOLLOW THE COUNCIL OF NICAEA (in 380 just before the stacked/LOADED Council in 381).

(Amazing considering his capital's people were overwhelmingly followers of the FACTION EXACTLY AND DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSITE the Nicaean decision)

And this timeline proved the Roman Catholic (recognized as the seat of Peter) Pope influenced the Empire.

But the Empire imposed the Council of Nicaea.

The same Pope dictated the Canon.

(Jerome wrote a letter to Rufinus saying that he disapproved of the Apocrypha but included it because the Pope made him. Jerome also wrote, elsewhere, that the Gospel of the Hebrews was the authentic Matthew, though he used the Greek Matthew in the Vulgate)

The New Testament in the King James was a Roman Catholic Papal dictate.

(Despite the 397 Council of Carthage, which followed the earlier ORIGINAL Papal dictates)

https://en.wikipedia.org/...ouncils_of_Carthage#Synod_of_397


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 06-17-2017 7:04 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1366
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 154 of 154 (847790)
01-27-2019 1:37 AM


Roman Catholic got its definition how?
Because Rome was the sole promoter of the imposed faith: Nicaean Christianity.

(Alexandria was arguably also a promoter/imposer as well)

Look at the Edict of Thessalonica of February 27, 380

"By 379, when Valens was succeeded by Theodosius I, Arianism was widespread in the eastern half of the Empire, while the west had remained steadfastly Nicene"

Theodosius was born in Spain, which was the West Roman Empire (the part that spoke Latin and was the Empire of the city of Rome)

quote:

The Edict of Thessalonica (also known as Cunctos populos), issued on 27 February AD 380 by three reigning Roman Emperors, made Nicene Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire.[1]

In 313 the emperor Constantine I, together with his eastern counterpart Licinius, issued the Edict of Milan, which granted religious toleration and freedom for persecuted Christians. By 325 Arianism, a school of christology which contended that Christ did not possess the divine essence of the Father but was rather a primordial creation and an entity subordinate to God, had become sufficiently widespread and controversial in Early Christianity that Constantine called the Council of Nicaea in an attempt to end the controversy by establishing an empire-wide, i.e., "ecumenical" orthodoxy. The council produced the original text of the Nicene Creed, which rejected the Arian confession and upheld that Christ is "true God" and "of one essence with the Father."[2]

....

By 379, when Valens was succeeded by Theodosius I, Arianism was widespread in the eastern half of the Empire, while the west had remained steadfastly Nicene. Theodosius, who had been born in Hispania, was himself a Nicene Christian and very devout. In August, his western counterpart Gratian promoted persecution of heretics in the west.[2]

Edict
The Edict of Thessalonica was jointly issued by Theodosius I, Gratian, and Valentinian II on 27 February 380.[1] The edict came after Theodosius had been baptized by the bishop Ascholius of Thessalonica upon suffering a severe illness in Thessalonica.[3]

Edict
The Edict of Thessalonica was jointly issued by Theodosius I, Gratian, and Valentinian II on 27 February 380.[1] The edict came after Theodosius had been baptized by the bishop Ascholius of Thessalonica upon suffering a severe illness in Thessalonica.[3]

IMPPP. GR(ATI)ANUS, VAL(ENTINI)ANUS ET THE(O)D(OSIUS) AAA. EDICTUM AD POPULUM VRB(IS) CONSTANTINOP(OLITANAE).

Cunctos populos, quos clementiae nostrae regit temperamentum, in tali volumus religione versari, quam divinum Petrum apostolum tradidisse Romanis religio usque ad nunc ab ipso insinuata declarat quamque pontificem Damasum sequi claret et Petrum Aleksandriae episcopum virum apostolicae sanctitatis, hoc est, ut secundum apostolicam disciplinam evangelicamque doctrinam patris et filii et spiritus sancti unam deitatem sub pari maiestate et sub pia trinitate credamus. Hanc legem sequentes Christianorum catholicorum nomen iubemus amplecti, reliquos vero dementes vesanosque iudicantes haeretici dogmatis infamiam sustinere ‘nec conciliabula eorum ecclesiarum nomen accipere’, divina primum vindicta, post etiam motus nostri, quem ex caelesti arbitro sumpserimus, ultione plectendos.

DAT. III Kal. Mar. THESSAL(ONICAE) GR(ATI)ANO A. V ET THEOD(OSIO) A. I CONSS.

EMPERORS GRATIAN, VALENTINIAN AND THEODOSIUS AUGUSTI. EDICT TO THE PEOPLE OF CONSTANTINOPLE.
It is our desire that all the various nations which are subject to our Clemency and Moderation, should continue to profess that religion which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter, as it has been preserved by faithful tradition, and which is now professed by the Pontiff Damasus and by Peter, Bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic holiness. According to the apostolic teaching and the doctrine of the Gospel, let us believe in the one deity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, in equal majesty and in a holy Trinity. We authorize the followers of this law to assume the title of Catholic Christians; but as for the others, since, in our judgment they are foolish madmen, we decree that they shall be branded with the ignominious name of heretics, and shall not presume to give to their conventicles the name of churches. They will suffer in the first place the chastisement of the divine condemnation and in the second the punishment of our authority which in accordance with the will of Heaven we shall decide to inflict.
GIVEN IN THESSALONICA ON THE THIRD DAY FROM THE CALENDS OF MARCH, DURING THE FIFTH CONSULATE OF GRATIAN AUGUSTUS AND FIRST OF THEODOSIUS AUGUSTUS[4]

— Codex Theodosianus, xvi.1.2

Importance
The edict was issued under the influence of Ascholius, and thus of Pope Damasus I, who had appointed him. It re-affirmed a single expression of the Apostolic Faith as legitimate in the Roman Empire, "catholic" (that is, universal)[5][6] and "orthodox" (that is, correct in teaching).[7]

After the edict, Theodosius spent a great deal of energy trying to suppress all non-Nicene forms of Christianity, especially Arianism, and in establishing Nicene orthodoxy throughout his realm.[8]

The edict was followed in 381 by the First Council of Constantinople, which affirmed the Nicene Symbolum and gave final form to the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed.[9] In 383, the Emperor ordered the various non-Nicene sects (Arians, Anomoeans, Macedonians, and Novatians) to submit written creeds to him, which he prayerfully reviewed and then burned, save for that of the Novatians. The other sects lost the right to meet, ordain priests, or spread their beliefs.[10] Theodosius forbade heretics to reside within Constantinople, and in 392 and 394 confiscated their places of worship.[11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Thessalonica


Now, Rome and Alexandria are mentioned as holders of the faith, through Pople Damascus (Rome) and Pope Peter (Alexandria)

"which is now professed by the Pontiff Damasus and by Peter, Bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic holiness. According to the apostolic teaching and the doctrine of the Gospel, let us believe in the one deity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, in equal majesty and in a holy Trinity. We authorize the followers of this law to assume the title of Catholic Christians"

So how did it become "Roman Catholic" and not "Roman/Alexandrian Catholic"?

Aside from The Roman Empire (of which Alexandria was just a part) inventing the Nicaean theology, Peter of Alexandria was promoted by the Pope of Rome.

quote:

Pope Peter II of Alexandria
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigationJump to search
Saint
Peter II of Alexandria
Patriarch of Alexandria
Installed 373
Term ended 381
Predecessor Athanasius the Apostolic
Successor Timothy I
Personal details
Born Egypt
Died 27 February 381
Egypt
Buried Dominicium, Alexandria
Nationality Egyptian
Residence Saint Mark's Church
Sainthood
Feast day 27 February (20 Amshir in the Coptic Calendar)[1]
Patriarch Peter II of Alexandria (died 27 February 381) was the 21st Patriarch of Alexandria from 373 to 381 AD. He was a disciple of Saint Athanasius who designated him as his successor before his death in 373.

He was a zealous opponent of Arianism[2] and immediately after his consecration, the prefect Palladius, acting on orders from Emperor Valens drove him from the city and installed Lucius, an adherent of Arianism as bishop.

Peter found refuge at Rome, where Pope Damasus I (366-384 A.D.) received him and gave him support against the Arians. In 373, Peter returned to Alexandria, where Lucius yielded out of fear of the populace.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Peter_II_of_Alexandria


Pope Damascus was not the ruler of the West Roman Empire (he was the leader of the Church of Rome, which was separate from the state- Gratian was EMPEROR OF THE WEST ROMAN EMPIRE from 367-383 which was an area the Pope Damascus was to impose his religion on - INFACT ALL ROMAN POPES WERE TO LEGALLY IMPOSE THEIR VIEWS ON).

Alexandria was in the East Roman Empire anyway.

But the Pope powerfully promoted his theology over the sitting Alexandrian Pope (a follower of ARIUS!).

This was BEFORE the 379 rise of the pro-Nicaean Empire of the East Roman Empire: Theodosius

The actual 325 Council of Nicaea also gave all Egyptian humans subjection to the "see of Alexandria".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_of_Alexandria

Roman Catholic properly became what it was in 380, and that was by the definition of the 380 edict.

And Faith promotes the doctrines (especially the Council of Nicaea)

And Faith promotes its exact New Testament Canon.

Luther and Calvin were open Catholics for most of their lives, even after the "protest"

"Protestant" simply means PROTESTING in French.

A "Protesting Roman Catholic".

Cut down to "PROTESTING" as a short-hand.

The same religion. Just a protest of a few practices.


    
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