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Author Topic:   The Right Side of the News
dwise1
Member
Posts: 6076
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 7.1


(2)
Message 721 of 5796 (847844)
01-28-2019 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 716 by Percy
01-28-2019 8:13 AM


Re: Trump Campaign Russian Contacts Timeline
Where do those figures come from? Trump isn't saying. Sarah Huckasands isn't saying.
For one thing, I remember after he had been in trade talks with Trudeau, Trump boasted of having just made up all the numbers he had presented.
For another, numbers are a very fluid thing for Trump. A radio report traced a Trump claim which, as I recall, started with his having created 10,000 jobs. Then the next time he had created 20,000 jobs. Every time he repeated that claim, the number of jobs created continued to grow until it ended up approach a million.
The bottom line is that Trump-cited numbers have no meaning.
quote:
We are not even into February and the cost of illegal immigration so far this year is $18,959,495,168. Cost Friday was $603,331,392.
One of the several schemes for how the Wall will be paid for is the claim that by eliminating illegal immigration we can take the money that illegal immigration is costing us and put that to building the Wall, make the Wall almost self-funding.
That ignores the tax revenues we get from illegal immigrants, from the taxes that they pay. While "independent contractor" illegals (eg, day laborers, home cleaners, gardeners) can operate on a cash only basis being paid directly by their customers, illegals who work for a company and receive a paycheck need to go through the motions, usually with fake IDs (like the ones that Trump's resorts got for their own illegals). Those illegals get payroll taxes (eg, FICA for Social Security and Medicare) and income tax withholding taken out of their pay. And since they don't have valid IDs, they cannot receive any Social Security nor Medicare benefits, nor (to my knowledge) can they file income taxes to get any refund. Plus all illegal immigrants pay the same day-to-day taxes that we all pay (eg, sales tax, gas tax, property taxes through their rent payments). It turns out that illegal workers pay more in taxes than they receive as benefits. The "cost of illegal immigration" turns out to be a net gain, not a liability -- http://www.ncsl.org/...te-reports-on-fiscal-immigration.aspx.
So even if we were to completely eliminate illegal immigration, we would end up losing money instead of gaining. And that's not even including the adverse effects of stores losing customers, landlords losing renters, and businesses losing employees.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 716 by Percy, posted 01-28-2019 8:13 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10295
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.4


Message 722 of 5796 (847854)
01-28-2019 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 666 by Faith
01-25-2019 5:44 PM


Re: I don't suppose anyone would like to think sanely about this?
Faith writes:
I am not in a position to judge such things. Yes they are experts.
The first sentence contradicts the second sentence.
I believe the conservatives, and i believe them mostly because I saw Marxist propaganda growing for decades, viciously committed to destroying western civilization. That isn't going to change. I guess there is no way to resolve any of this.
As stated before, there are no facts that could ever change your mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 666 by Faith, posted 01-25-2019 5:44 PM Faith has not replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1273 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 723 of 5796 (847855)
01-28-2019 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 678 by Percy
01-25-2019 7:32 PM


Re: Fox News Has the Latest Poll
You're defining "the left" in a very broad sense and then insisting that it can only be used in that sense.
'The left' without qualification is a very broad sense. I'm nor insisting it can only be used in that way, but if you're using a narrower context, such as 'the left of the US Congress' then it would help to specify.
That's not at all true. In the context of that poll question and of this thread's backdrop of the current political debate between Democrats and Republicans in Washington, "the left" refers to those in favor of things like affordable healthcare for all, a fiscally healthy social security system, a social safety net, regulations supporting a clean environment and action on climate change, etc. I suppose that to varying degrees these can be interpreted as a move toward socialism, but not as a move away from capitalism.
Well, this seems to be a regular question on the Fox News poll which they'd asked repeatedly over the past decade; rather than just being something related to current political debate. And the answers seem to suggest that 'moving away from capitalism' is not just a weird fringe opinion. Quite a few Americans seem to like the suggestion; with the highest response in favour being the 36% who said it would be a good thing on the 2018 survey.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 678 by Percy, posted 01-25-2019 7:32 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 730 by Percy, posted 01-28-2019 5:13 PM caffeine has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1693 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 724 of 5796 (847856)
01-28-2019 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 716 by Percy
01-28-2019 8:13 AM


Re: Trump Campaign Russian Contacts Timeline
We are not even into February and the cost of illegal immigration so far this year is $18,959,495,168. Cost Friday was $603,331,392.
Where do those figures come from?
I hear numbers like that all the time on my conservative radio shows, not from Trump, just from the hosts who collect such information. It no doubt includes the costs of the border patrol, detention facilities and staff, transportation costs, food costs, medical costs, police and legal costs in many places in the country, and lots more. The number I hear most is that one illegal immigrant costs us $70,000 per year, not sure what all that includes, but it's many times my own income.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 716 by Percy, posted 01-28-2019 8:13 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 725 by Theodoric, posted 01-28-2019 3:22 PM Faith has replied
 Message 728 by dwise1, posted 01-28-2019 5:04 PM Faith has replied
 Message 734 by Percy, posted 01-28-2019 6:15 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 749 by Percy, posted 01-29-2019 10:08 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 752 by Percy, posted 01-29-2019 1:58 PM Faith has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9489
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 725 of 5796 (847859)
01-28-2019 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 724 by Faith
01-28-2019 2:58 PM


Re: Trump Campaign Russian Contacts Timeline
Maybe you should ask them for source and evidence for these figures. Because they are pulling them out of their ass. If the figures were real they would tell you how they came up with them.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 724 by Faith, posted 01-28-2019 2:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 726 by Faith, posted 01-28-2019 4:46 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1693 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 726 of 5796 (847863)
01-28-2019 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 725 by Theodoric
01-28-2019 3:22 PM


Re: Trump Campaign Russian Contacts Timeline
I don't lie, there are better explanations for discrepancies between what I'm saying and what you think, the main one being that YOU are the one in the wrong.
I'm sure they do show how the numbers are arrived at but I don't keep track because it never occurs to me I'm going to be posting these things here.
Another part of the cost they are no doubt including is the cost in drug trafficking, deaths from drugs, medical and police involvement in that etc.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 725 by Theodoric, posted 01-28-2019 3:22 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 727 by Theodoric, posted 01-28-2019 5:03 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 741 by Percy, posted 01-29-2019 8:11 AM Faith has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9489
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 727 of 5796 (847865)
01-28-2019 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 726 by Faith
01-28-2019 4:46 PM


Re: Trump Campaign Russian Contacts Timeline
So there is absolutely no reason to believe any of the numbers that you and other conservatives seem to pull out of your ass. Like I have said before if you have no source or evidence you have no argument.
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"
Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 726 by Faith, posted 01-28-2019 4:46 PM Faith has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 6076
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 7.1


Message 728 of 5796 (847866)
01-28-2019 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 724 by Faith
01-28-2019 2:58 PM


Re: Trump Campaign Russian Contacts Timeline
And what figures do your conservative radio shows give for tax revenues we get from those illegal immigrants? Or the other benefits to our economy that they give us? Or the companies that their labor keeps in business, such that those CEOs are now very concerned that they're going to go out of business without those workers (down-side being that they are exploiting those illegals, which is another reason why we need to solve the problem of getting legal status)?
Which of your conservative radio shows point out that those tax revenues and boosts to our economy exceed the costs of illegal immigration? None of them, I'm sure, because they don't want you to know. They want to keep you scared and angry, because that keeps you from thinking.
http://www.ncsl.org/...te-reports-on-fiscal-immigration.aspx

This message is a reply to:
 Message 724 by Faith, posted 01-28-2019 2:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 729 by Faith, posted 01-28-2019 5:08 PM dwise1 has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1693 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 729 of 5796 (847867)
01-28-2019 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 728 by dwise1
01-28-2019 5:04 PM


Re: Trump Campaign Russian Contacts Timeline
That can't possibly amount to much, especially considering that they are displacing American workers. Of course Americans would have to be paid better but the overall cost has to be hundreds of times greater than any benefits.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 728 by dwise1, posted 01-28-2019 5:04 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 732 by dwise1, posted 01-28-2019 5:58 PM Faith has replied
 Message 736 by Theodoric, posted 01-28-2019 7:54 PM Faith has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22929
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 7.2


(2)
Message 730 of 5796 (847868)
01-28-2019 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 723 by caffeine
01-28-2019 1:23 PM


Re: Fox News Has the Latest Poll
caffeine writes:
You're defining "the left" in a very broad sense and then insisting that it can only be used in that sense.
'The left' without qualification is a very broad sense. I'm nor insisting it can only be used in that way, but if you're using a narrower context, such as 'the left of the US Congress' then it would help to specify.
If I've misjudged the context of this thread and people have been using the term "the left" as including Marxists and communists then my bad, but I don't think I have.
And the answers seem to suggest that 'moving away from capitalism' is not just a weird fringe opinion. Quite a few Americans seem to like the suggestion; with the highest response in favour being the 36% who said it would be a good thing on the 2018 survey.
This ignores what was already pointed out, that the question poses a false dichotomy. Capitalism and socialism are not opposites. It is capitalism and Marxism that are opposites.
Because of the false dichotomy there's no way to know what the answer means, because you don't know how many people put the stress on "moving away from capitalism" versus how many on "moving toward socialism." If the question had been posed properly it would have looked like this:
  1. Do you think it would be a good thing or a bad thing for the United States to move away from capitalism and more toward Marxism?
In which case the number of people saying it was a good thing would easily have been less than 10%.
Since they improperly confounded capitalism and socialism as opposites it's not possible to know what they were truly trying to get at, but here's an example of a properly posed question that doesn't force people to make an impossible choice between capitalism and socialism:
  1. Do you think it would be a good thing or a bad thing for the United States to move away from people being subject to the whims of events and circumstance and more toward a government safety net?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 723 by caffeine, posted 01-28-2019 1:23 PM caffeine has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 731 by Faith, posted 01-28-2019 5:19 PM Percy has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1693 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 731 of 5796 (847869)
01-28-2019 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 730 by Percy
01-28-2019 5:13 PM


Re: Fox News Has the Latest Poll
I for one always include Marxism in "the Left."
Capitalism and socialism ARE opposites. Capitalism can absorb some amount of socialism, but the current Democratic party is really aiming for Marxism despite your disbelief. Obama was raised in a Communist family. Sanders is a Marxist/Communist. The new crop of members of the House are Marxists. The old guard are really closet Marxists anyway. The whole PC mentality comes from Marxism. ANY degree of socialism tends towards Marxism too even if it can be contained by sane heads, and we have very few sane heads on the side of the Democrats these days.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 730 by Percy, posted 01-28-2019 5:13 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 733 by Theodoric, posted 01-28-2019 6:13 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 735 by Taq, posted 01-28-2019 6:24 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 750 by Percy, posted 01-29-2019 11:02 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 751 by AZPaul3, posted 01-29-2019 12:22 PM Faith has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 6076
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 7.1


Message 732 of 5796 (847870)
01-28-2019 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 729 by Faith
01-28-2019 5:08 PM


Re: Trump Campaign Russian Contacts Timeline
That can't possibly amount to much, especially considering that they are displacing American workers.
And yet when those jobs open up, American workers fail to come flooding in to take them. I know it's been said too many times already, but there are jobs that Americans do not want to do. Like the A-TEAM in 1964 recruited to replace the braceros and the Guatemalan workers at the Fresh Mark meat packing plant in Salem, OH, arrested and scared off by a massive ICE raid. From my Message 534 reply to you (no response from you):
DWise1 writes:
"Jobs that Americans refuse to do"
Remember the 1964 A-TEAM (Athletes in Temporary Employment as Agricultural Manpower -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracero_program#Aftermath and https://www.npr.org/...grant-farmworkers-with-high-schoolers. When we closed the bracero program the farmers had no farm workers to pick their crops for them. Despite the opponents of the bracero program decrying how they were taking jobs away from Americans, Americans didn't rush in to grab those jobs. Seeing two different problems -- lack of farm workers and lack of summer jobs for teenagers -- politicians decided that combining the two problems would provide the solutions. So in 1964 they recruited high school athletes to do farm work. They got a lot of responses, though coaches would not allow athletes enter that program because they needed to make practice during the summer. The students were appalled at the extremely bad living and working conditions, the same ones that the braceros had had to endure. Many students deserted within the first few weeks (some after only a few days) and they staged strikes in some of the camps. The program was a failure and was cancelled after the first summer.
Do the name, "Salem, Ohio", ring a bell? -- https://www.theguardian.com/...n-raid-meatpacking-plant-ohio. The Fresh Mark meat packing plant, a major industry that the town depends on, employed many Guatemalan illegals. Not only did Fresh Mark benefit from their hard work, but they and their families were a contributing part of the community. On 19 June 2018, ICE staged a massive raid on the plant arresting 146 workers. The effects on the town were devastating. The plant continued to operate, but at a reduced capacity which cost them revenue. Many Guatemalans left the town out of fear, so the businesses in town suffered from the loss of many of their customers. The plant has tried to recruit workers, which should be easy with all the Americans flooding in to fill those jobs. That hasn't been the case. On the radio, it was reported that Syrian refugees were filling those jobs.
Where were your American workers there? A lot of complaining about being displaced by immigrants, but when opportunity presents itself they're no-shows.
Of course Americans would have to be paid better ...
That is true, which is why CEOs want immigrant labor which is cheaper and easier to exploit. That is why we need immigration reform to make that immigrant labor legal and to reduce exploitation.
Hopefully, this negotiation on border security will lead to that much-needed immigration reform.
... but the overall cost has to be hundreds of times greater than any benefits.
Except that it's not. Read the reports from several states at that link I had just provided you: http://www.ncsl.org/...te-reports-on-fiscal-immigration.aspx -- the root page to several reports on the fiscal impact of immigration is at http://www.ncsl.org/...tion/fiscal-impact-on-immigrants.aspx.
For example, Arizona reports all immigrants costing them $1.4 billion balanced by revenues of $2.4 billion from all immigrants, leaving a net positive of $940 million, meaning that the state makes more money from immigrants than it pays out for immigrants. $1.5 billion of those revenues come from unauthorized workers, so they more than pull their own weight; they are not a drain on society.
As I laid it out for Percy in Message 721:
DWise1 writes:
One of the several schemes for how the Wall will be paid for is the claim that by eliminating illegal immigration we can take the money that illegal immigration is costing us and put that to building the Wall, make the Wall almost self-funding.
That ignores the tax revenues we get from illegal immigrants, from the taxes that they pay. While "independent contractor" illegals (eg, day laborers, home cleaners, gardeners) can operate on a cash only basis being paid directly by their customers, illegals who work for a company and receive a paycheck need to go through the motions, usually with fake IDs (like the ones that Trump's resorts got for their own illegals). Those illegals get payroll taxes (eg, FICA for Social Security and Medicare) and income tax withholding taken out of their pay. And since they don't have valid IDs, they cannot receive any Social Security nor Medicare benefits, nor (to my knowledge) can they file income taxes to get any refund. Plus all illegal immigrants pay the same day-to-day taxes that we all pay (eg, sales tax, gas tax, property taxes through their rent payments). It turns out that illegal workers pay more in taxes than they receive as benefits. The "cost of illegal immigration" turns out to be a net gain, not a liability -- http://www.ncsl.org/...te-reports-on-fiscal-immigration.aspx.
So even if we were to completely eliminate illegal immigration, we would end up losing money instead of gaining. And that's not even including the adverse effects of stores losing customers, landlords losing renters, and businesses losing employees.
I have no doubt that you will continue to cling to ignorance, but your love of ignorance does not change the facts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 729 by Faith, posted 01-28-2019 5:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 778 by Faith, posted 01-30-2019 10:53 AM dwise1 has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9489
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 6.4


(1)
Message 733 of 5796 (847872)
01-28-2019 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 731 by Faith
01-28-2019 5:19 PM


Re: Fox News Has the Latest Poll
Capitalism and socialism ARE opposites.
Not correct. You are wrong.
One is a politucal system, the other is an economic system. There are a lot of socialist societies that have capitalism as part of their economic system.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 731 by Faith, posted 01-28-2019 5:19 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22929
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 734 of 5796 (847873)
01-28-2019 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 724 by Faith
01-28-2019 2:58 PM


Re: Trump Campaign Russian Contacts Timeline
Faith writes:
We are not even into February and the cost of illegal immigration so far this year is $18,959,495,168. Cost Friday was $603,331,392.
Where do those figures come from?
I hear numbers like that all the time on my conservative radio shows, not from Trump, just from the hosts who collect such information
And where do the radio show hosts' figures come from? I already cast serious doubt on the numbers. The total budget for Homeland Security is $47.5 billion. If Homeland Security is spending $19 billion/month on illegal immigration then multiplying by 12 months/year gives a total cost of $228 billion, exceeding Homeland Security's total budget by $180.5 billion. That's impossible. Obviously the figures are made up.
It no doubt includes the costs of the border patrol, detention facilities and staff, transportation costs, food costs, medical costs, police and legal costs in many places in the country, and lots more.
It doesn't matter how many different categories of cost you enumerate because they must all be covered by Homeland Security's total budget.
The number I hear most is that one illegal immigrant costs us $70,000 per year, not sure what all that includes,...
Of course you're not sure what it includes, because you're not giving it any thought, because it confirms what you want to believe anyway, and if you gave it any thought then it might not support your beliefs anymore. So allow me to do your thinking for you.
First, $70,000/immigrant/year is absurd. Multiply by the 11 million illegal immigrants in this country and you get nearly $800 billion. That's an absurdly large and ridiculous figure
Second, how are these costs being incurred? Since they're illegal they can't receive any government benefits. From where and for what is money flowing to pay this supposed cost for an illegal immigrant?
Third, you have to account for their contributions to the economy. They must have jobs. They must live somewhere and pay rent, eat meals and buy groceries, purchase clothing and furnishings, ride on public transportation, etc. Many illegal immigrants work on the books and pay taxes, including social security and medicare taxes, both of which you take advantage of. Your retirement is being funded in part by illegal immigrants.
...but it's many times my own income.
$70,000/year is many times your own income? That's truly a shame. Don't you think government should beef up social security so that recipients could have an income above the poverty line? If Trump is doing such a great job for you, how come you're living in poverty? Did you know that there are Republican efforts at reducing social security, Medicare and Medicaid benefits? How would it affect you if your social security benefits were reduced by $100/month?
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Punctuation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 724 by Faith, posted 01-28-2019 2:58 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10295
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.4


(1)
Message 735 of 5796 (847876)
01-28-2019 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 731 by Faith
01-28-2019 5:19 PM


Re: Fox News Has the Latest Poll
Faith writes:
Capitalism and socialism ARE opposites. Capitalism can absorb some amount of socialism, but the current Democratic party is really aiming for Marxism despite your disbelief. Obama was raised in a Communist family. Sanders is a Marxist/Communist. The new crop of members of the House are Marxists. The old guard are really closet Marxists anyway. The whole PC mentality comes from Marxism. ANY degree of socialism tends towards Marxism too even if it can be contained by sane heads, and we have very few sane heads on the side of the Democrats these days.
I'm pretty sure we can add "Marxism" to the list of things you don't understand.
Would you consider the UK to be a socialist country?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 731 by Faith, posted 01-28-2019 5:19 PM Faith has not replied

  
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