Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 78 (8896 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 03-21-2019 11:28 AM
39 online now:
Diomedes, DrJones*, edge, Phat (AdminPhat), Tangle, Tanypteryx, vimesey (7 members, 32 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WookieeB
Post Volume:
Total: 848,526 Year: 3,563/19,786 Month: 558/1,087 Week: 148/212 Day: 15/49 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   contacting/updates on old members?
derwood
Member
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 1 of 10 (848409)
02-04-2019 12:49 PM


Hello all,

I was wondering if it would be possible to contact old members who do not have email addresses in their profiles (specifically, Mammuthus).

Also - this goes way back, maybe 15 years? - does anyone remember the 15 year old creationist from Michigan that was active here for a time, and then just kind of vanished?

Well, I think I found him (while brushing up on my Haldane's Dilemma info for use on another forum). Pretty sure it is him - he is now a post doc working on molecular genetics stuff. But I found him because he wrote a lengthy essay on how Haldane's Dilemma is still a major issue.
As is the norm with folks using this line of argument, despite him offering a super-detailed overview of population genetics, neutral theory, etc., he never once mentioned how he knew how many beneficial mutations were 'needed' for X change to occur...

Can't change the tiger's stripes even after giving it a PhD...

Edited by derwood, : typos


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 02-05-2019 4:03 PM derwood has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 12159
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 2 of 10 (848449)
02-05-2019 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by derwood
02-04-2019 12:49 PM


Degrees Of Certainty
Seems that Mammuthus has been inactive over ten years.

I notice you are unimpressed with his Phd. What educational credentials do you yourself bring to the table? I usually respect someone who has the discipline to get a degree in anything...even Bob Jones University!


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by derwood, posted 02-04-2019 12:49 PM derwood has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by derwood, posted 02-06-2019 10:05 AM Phat has responded
 Message 8 by Minnemooseus, posted 02-07-2019 11:43 PM Phat has responded

  
derwood
Member
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 3 of 10 (848473)
02-06-2019 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
02-05-2019 4:03 PM


Re: Degrees Of Certainty
quote:
I notice you are unimpressed with his Phd.

I am unsure how you drew that conclusion. In fact, if anything, I did the opposite - by expressing disbelief that DESPITE his earning a PhD, he still makes the same basic creationist-style arguments.

quote:

What educational credentials do you yourself bring to the table?

An earned doctorate in an evolutionary biology-relevant discipline. You?
quote:
I usually respect someone who has the discipline to get a degree in anything...even Bob Jones University!

Sure, but I wouldn't hire someone that earned a biology degree from Bob Jones due to their requirement that they adhere to ancient dogma.

Edited by derwood, : typo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 02-05-2019 4:03 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 02-06-2019 10:08 AM derwood has not yet responded
 Message 5 by AZPaul3, posted 02-06-2019 10:38 AM derwood has not yet responded
 Message 6 by dwise1, posted 02-06-2019 2:27 PM derwood has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 12159
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 4 of 10 (848474)
02-06-2019 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by derwood
02-06-2019 10:05 AM


Re: Degrees Of Certainty
Yeah I did read some of your posts from the past and notice that you teach...(I thought). I myself have no degree. I am but a lowly grocery clerk. But I'm glad to see that some of our old members here still stop by once in a while. I hope you are having a good life. (I vaguely remember mammuthus...I started here in 2004)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by derwood, posted 02-06-2019 10:05 AM derwood has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3805
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


(2)
Message 5 of 10 (848475)
02-06-2019 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by derwood
02-06-2019 10:05 AM


Re: Degrees Of Certainty
I wouldn't hire someone that earned a biology degree from Bob Jones due to their requirement that they adhere to ancient dogma.

That's religious discrimination. It's a no-no.

Graduates of Bob Jones, even with bio degrees, can do more than an adequate job of counting paper clips, laying sod, and a whole host of other important jobs in this society. Just not ones where strong personal ethics/morality/reality are required.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by derwood, posted 02-06-2019 10:05 AM derwood has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3309
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


(2)
Message 6 of 10 (848481)
02-06-2019 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by derwood
02-06-2019 10:05 AM


Re: Degrees Of Certainty
Sure, but I wouldn't hire someone that earned a biology degree from Bob Jones due to their requirement that they adhere to ancient dogma.

Between two and three decades ago, I went to see Dr. Eugenie Scott of the NCSE speak at an Americans United meeting, where she told a story that I'll aways remember.

She stated that at the university where she taught anthropology, the biology program did not teach evolution -- she added that that was true of many universities. She would get many biology seniors in her physical anthropology class looking for an easy way to complete their graduation requirements ("the poor deluded fools!", said she, because her class wasn't going to be easy). While their biology classes didn't teach evolution, her class most certainly did.
She would observe these biology seniors during the semester and she could see each one of them, one by one, suddenly get that "aha!" look on their face: "So that's why ... !"

Dr. Scott presented her anecdotal experiences as living proof of that famous quote by Theodosius Dobzhansky ("Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution", American Biology Teacher 35:125-129 (March 1973), p. 129):

quote:
Seen in the light of evolution, biology is, perhaps, intellectually the most satisfying and inspiring science. Without that light, it becomes a pile of sundry facts -- some of them interesting or curious, but making no meaningful picture as a whole.

Of course, there are a few caveats, such as this being the situation in that biology department's undergraduate program and so says nothing of whether they end up covering evolution in the graduate degrees.

When I present that quote on my web site, I include the following as well:

quote:

. . . Does the evolutionary doctrine clash with religious faith? It does not. It is a blunder to mistake the Holy Scriptures for elementary textbooks of astronomy, geology, biology, and anthropology. Only if symbols are construed to mean what they are not intended to mean can there arise imaginary, insoluble conflicts. As pointed out above, the blunder leads to blasphemy: the Creator is accused of systematic deceitfulness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by derwood, posted 02-06-2019 10:05 AM derwood has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 02-07-2019 10:49 PM dwise1 has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 12159
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 7 of 10 (848499)
02-07-2019 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by dwise1
02-06-2019 2:27 PM


Re: Degrees Of Certainty
I am fairly convinced that biological evolution is likely the correct teaching as far as human understanding goes. I never understood biblical creationism but there is a lot i do not understand. Much of reality as taught is a mystery to me. I respect the scientific disciplines that you have been taught. They do not conflict with my beliefs.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by dwise1, posted 02-06-2019 2:27 PM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by dwise1, posted 02-08-2019 2:52 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3707
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 8 of 10 (848500)
02-07-2019 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
02-05-2019 4:03 PM


Re: Degrees Of Certainty
Seems that Mammuthus has been inactive over ten years.

I notice you are unimpressed with his Phd. What educational credentials do you yourself bring to the table? I usually respect someone who has the discipline to get a degree in anything...even Bob Jones University!

I think that 2 persons and 2 PhDs are getting confused here.

Mammuthus has a PhD, and is not at all a creationist.

The young creationist (TrueCreation???) also now apparently has a PhD (in geology???). I suspect his YECism has been highly modified, but apparently he is still some variety of a creationist.

BTW, we do have an admin access to a Mammuthus e-mail address, but I don't feel liberty to publicly release it. It also may well no longer be valid. His profile is set to not receive e-mail notifications for replies to his messages.

Moose


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 02-05-2019 4:03 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 02-08-2019 2:34 AM Minnemooseus has acknowledged this reply

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 12159
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 9 of 10 (848502)
02-08-2019 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Minnemooseus
02-07-2019 11:43 PM


Re: Degrees Of Certainty
Moose writes:

BTW, we do have an admin access to a Mammuthus e-mail address, but I don't feel liberty to publicly release it.

I saw that too but figured it best stay private. As you said, it may not even be active anymore anyway.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Minnemooseus, posted 02-07-2019 11:43 PM Minnemooseus has acknowledged this reply

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3309
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 10 of 10 (848503)
02-08-2019 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Phat
02-07-2019 10:49 PM


Re: Degrees Of Certainty
I never understood biblical creationism but there is a lot i do not understand.

I think it safe to say that biblical creationists don't understand it either. It doesn't help that they go out of their way to prevent any kind of discussion of the matter. All they seem interested in is using their creationism to proselytize, so the moment they realize that you know what you are talking about, they try to terminate communication as quickly as possible, usually by becoming extremely and increasingly unpleasant in order to drive you away -- I can bear through that bullshit because I've been through a divorce (first season episode of "The Orville", the XO, the CO's ex-wife, is being interrogated with torture to which she says, "I've gone through a divorce! There's nothing worse you can do to me!"). They turn out to be complete and utter assholes who make Faith on her worst days seem like an extremely pleasant Girl Scout.

On my site, I have a page, Encounters with Creationists, in which I present what I think is going on with that. Nor am I the only one to notice such a pattern. Carl Drews is a fundamentalist I met on-line who learned very early that "creation science" claims are pure BS. He and his family joined a church that they liked because they were doing good work, but then it turned out that they were dedicated to "creation science". The final straw was when the pastor advocated "lying for the Lord" just so long as it opposed evolution. Here is what Carl had posted on his website about encounters with creationists (http://www.theistic-evolution.com/...oung-Earth Creationists):

quote:
Typical Encounters with Young-Earth Creationists
A few times I have written to the authors of young-earth creationist publications, pointing out some inaccuracy or a faulty analysis. The encounter follows the following pattern:

I write to them.
They write back to me refusing to admit error; "I make no apologies." They defend their position and manner of expressing it. I notice some misinterpretation of my letter, or ignoring of what I clearly said.
If I write back to them a second time, rebutting their response or bringing up another point,
Their communication becomes unpleasant.
At this point I have nothing further to do with them.


My last contact with Carl was around 2002, nearly two decades ago, so I don't know how active he is in the discourse, though his site is still up. Interestingly, in an engineering trade journal there was an article about him working on an experiment to explain the Parting of the Red Sea.

I gained most of my knowledge of Christian fundamentalism around 1970 as a "fellow traveler" of the Jesus Freak Movement at Ground Zero (Chuck Smith's Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa, CA) -- I had already become an atheist a half-decade prior by reading the Bible and everything I learned from the Jesus Freaks only confirmed that I had made the right decision. One of many benefits from that experience (such as knowing their deceptive proselytizing tactics) is an understanding of where they are coming from, how they think. Or at the very least some sympathy for them and the corners that they keep painting themselves into.

It appears to me that they and the "intelligent design" late-to-the-party lads seem to take the position that if natural processes had provided these outcomes, then that disproves God. In contrast, my view is that their Creator god would have created all the natural processes involved, so outcomes from natural processes do in fact not disprove God (Phat, I suspect that you are yourself of a like mind, or would be).

So what I see happening is that these "biblical creationists" are taking their theology and choosing to dictate how God must have created. Furthermore, they are dictating that their own arbitrary pronouncements of how the universe must be or else God does not exist (... numerous variations on this theme, but they are all essentially the same).

Basically, the bottom line is that these "biblical creationists" have their own ideas of how their "creator god" had to have created and they wish to impose those ideas on their god. I now forget the source, but somebody once pointed out that dictating to God what He can and cannot do is a very bad idea.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 02-07-2019 10:49 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019