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Author | Topic: Christianity and the End Times | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
There are many ways to hypothesize this. Words were words in the beginning...even before humans could so much as utter syllables. Words exist to express ideas long before the "messenger" grows enough to express them.
I don't believe that the authors themselves were inspirational beyond the norm for humanity. There are different words and different philosophies expressed through words. The text seems to suggest that The Word supersedes random words and dueling philosophies. Our challenge is to attempt to find cohesion between 66 books and many authors to see if they all have mere words or The Word. Our other challenge is to determine the characteristics of The Word vs simply words and philosophies. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: So now that we humans supposedly have explanations, who discovered the explanations? We did, you say? So we have become our own answer to our earlier questions? We have become the word of knowledge ourselves? I don't think so. Try again. it's mythology written for primitive people who had no other explanation for anything that happened to them and has been exploited by kings and charlatans for centuries thereafter. Quoting that stuff as though it had any explanatory value at all is a waste of electrons. Try again.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Im just saying that we alone are not our best answer. You may argue that the evidence shows this to be all we have. Thus we continue to discuss evidence vs belief. I just wish there were some way I could make an argument for evidence backing belief, but so far I cant. So I need to get to work.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Yours Truly writes:
Words were words in the beginning...even before humans could so much as utter syllables. Words exist to express ideas long before the "messenger" grows enough to express them.AZPaul3 writes: Lets go with this for a moment... OK What about math? physics? Did they exist without humans? Did not the formulas exist before someone evolved enough to chart them out on a chalkboard? The whole concept of chance(spoken of in my signature) formulated into probability based on statistics, weights, distances, and behaviors of elements? My point is that you likely will say that the processes existed and later humans evolved the intelligence to explain them. If so, why cannot an idea exist before a human comes up with the words to express a said idea? Why must God have been defined by humans? Why could not God as an idea have existed long before humans evolved to the primitive levels with which to attempt to describe Him(Her, or It)? Be specific.
Sorry. No."Word" or words don't exist outside the human who conjures them up until she speaks them.(...)no human, no word. Not even the idea of word. AZPaul3 writes: Indeed. Language defines concept. Ideas. Ideologies. My point is, however, that if math could have existed before formulas, why could not concepts, ideas, and ideologies have existed before language got around to hanging a label on them?
What we do with them can be amazing. Bob Dylan, Mark Twain, and, oh how Harper Lee and Charles Dickens could put visions together.Ok, cue the unicorns! That would be fantasy, right? We both understood the reference. My argument is that God may have existed long before any human attempt to portray Him in a picture, image, or story. If you prefer, you can call Him *The Big Idea*. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Until there was a human mind capable of abstract symbol manipulation, and understanding the result, there cannot have been any "idea". There was no vessel, space, time, dimension or aether to contain the idea. Nowhere for it to exist except within the emerging abstract-enabled mind. Do me a favor. Play devils advocate and make a counter-argument to what you have just stated. What would it sound like?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
"God did it" is an add-on that fits almost anywhere. True. But why is it impossible for an idea to exist before humanity evolved enough to define it?
Thank you God for this meal, even though I had to work to get the money, go to the store, do all the cooking, wash the dishes, etc.
Remember Jesus and Pilate?
John 19:10 writes: Here is another example of a writer implying that God predated human wisdom, authority, and definition of ideas. Or do you have a better explanation for what Jesus meant in his comments concerning Pilates "power"? So Pilate said to Him, “Do You refuse to speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You and authority to crucify You?” 11Jesus answered, “You would have no authority over Me if it were not given to you from above. The same can be said for the idea of God. You claim its an easy copout...wghich can be true. It also offers a belief that human wisdom is not our only source nor our first source. Granted it is the expression of a belief. And how would we ever test it?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You are opening quite a can of worms here. Lets review:
Phat writes:
Observe this TED Talk. It is presented by David Christian who is a Historian who has coined the phrase Big History, which is an academic discipline which examines history from the Big Bang to the present. Big History resists specialization and searches for universal patterns or trends. It examines long time frames using a multidisciplinary approach based on combining numerous disciplines from science and the humanities and explores human existence in the context of this bigger picture. It integrates studies of the cosmos, Earth, life, and humanity using empirical evidence to explore cause-and-effect relations, and is taught at universities and secondary schools often using web-based interactive presentations.
Why cannot there be an idea before a human mind defines it?Why must ideas be contained only in human minds? The transcript is here: The History Of Our World In 18 Minutes Note some of the quotes from this talk:
So it seems that it is entirely acceptable to hypothesize that the universe (through time and chance) creates. Odd why it is ridiculed why an intelligence could exist...apart from and before humans, which was also capable of creating. If this is another "god done it", well, you know where that gets us.
So call it intelligence. It surely seems arrogant for humans to limit themselves to defining the possibility of ideas to have to fit within the framework of our human cognition. It also seems odd to so readily accept math as eternally existing (as long as the universe, at any rate) and yet refuse to entertain the notion that superior intelligence could as likely exist. One problem is that you seemingly won't entertain anything that you can't understand or explain. All I am suggesting is to allow the hypothetical without making little *it be majic* jokes and innuendos. This goes far beyond the comic book imagination of your adolescence.
AZPaul3 writes: Fine. So what?
Because as far as we know humans are the only entity in existence that have exhibited such abilities. You tell me. If an idea existed prior to human cognition, where was it? The same place the math was. Of what was it made? We do not yet know. How did it get from where ever into the electrochemical synapses of the brain tissue? Is there such a thing as an original thought? Someone had to think of the possibility. Are we simply to rule it out because we cannot yet measure it, weigh it, or visualize it? It sure seems to me that if the universe is so vast and so old relative to humans, the possibility of such intelligence(who may have invented math also) is more than slightly likely. Humans have to quit thinking of ourselves as the source for all wisdom which we document. Quit being so afraid of speculating on WHO or WHAT "did it". It obviously is not an idea limited to humanity...apart from our bringing it up for discussion. Look at computers. They existed as an idea long before humans invented them.They originally were envisioned as machines that solved calculations. Math existed before humanity. Calculations were thus solved without need of humans. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: My "pet" God is rational. Certainly not limited to the one you compile from the book. Certainly not a mere Loki, or Bigfoot, or some other human creation. The one who is afraid is you - afraid of letting go of your fixed idea of God. If we did find an entity that was completely different from your pet god, most of us would be more willing to accept it than you would. Basically an initial Creator of all seen and unseen. A source for the fodder for Big Bangs. An initial source. An eternal conduit of creativity and encouragement. A validation that human minds are not all that we have to bank on. An insurance policy of Hope for an uncertain future with fallible humans likely to blow themselves up if left to their own instincts. Why must your qualification for acceptance hinge on something different from that? I suspect it will be because you discovered and defined it rather than it defining you. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: This explains why its easier for science to believe that in the beginning, matter reacted rather than an idea or thought to be the initial cause. Science has conditioned you to always require the physical before the mental. ...ideas can only exist in physical minds. They're not free-floating entities that we can trap and use. (...)it takes a physical thing to have a thought. How would I be able to show you otherwise? That would be Gods job.
ringo writes: Are you suggesting that "you defining it" is more rational? How can a "you" that existed in the last seconds of Carl Sagan's cosmic calendar define the other 365 days and 83,520 seconds? Why does the definition emerge in the last seconds of a cosmic year calendar than it would in the first second? "It defining you" is the epitome of irrationality.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: So in essence, the beginning of modern science and wisdom used in defining the universe and all that is seen and unseen didn't start until humans evolved enough to begin our cognitive processes? And that's wishful thinking.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Are you thus arguing that the book is *not* made up? Again, the book is the only source you have. Everything else is made up.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Are there any ideas that are not human ideas?
Is reality a human idea? Are we to conclude that anything a human cannot define or describe does not exist for all practical purposes?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes:
OK, lets go back to The History Of Our World In 18 Minutes which is a made up concept known as Big History. What you make up is strictly ad hoc.The author concludes that "the universe" creates its own complexity. How is this not also ad hoc? Reality is what it is regardless of any human ideas about it. Cant argue with you there.
Are there any paintings that are not made of paint? Are there any universes that *may* exist that we cannot yet define or describe? If we correlate the word paint to the word idea, we thus hypothetically have possible universes, multiverses, or dare i say Gods that exist as ideas not yet defined. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
tangle writes: So why can we not claim that the idea of multiverses is not simply made up?
We started the process by making up stories to 'explain' things - hence your current beliefs. Science continues this process but in a rational way, based on observation and objective testing in order to separate the real from the imaginary. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18345 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
We'd already been here for 13.7+- billion years before any of those showed up. Trying to starting another creation right where/when one is already going is rather fumble-fingered and feeble-minded I would think. Just how old is this god? Wait....we are 13.7 billion years old? One would think that the basic building blocks of life might be around, but hardly anything human or even this planet. If God existed before human imagination, He alone was around 13.7 billion years ago. If not, don't attempt to extrapolate your own imagination as to the natural reality 13.7 billion years ago with you actually being there. It makes humans able to imagine a universe that they can't imagine God in. Imagination can only take us so far. I would guess that the first thing needed would be words of expression. Thus the beginning of our speculation originates through words. Oh, wait...In The Beginning, was The Word... So Who spoke Whom into existence? Did we imagine God? (Critics will ask "which one" ) OR did God imagine/create us? The jury has not arrived at a definite verdict.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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