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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12996
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1666 of 1748 (848534)
02-08-2019 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1665 by Tangle
02-08-2019 1:28 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
tangle writes:

We started the process by making up stories to 'explain' things - hence your current beliefs. Science continues this process but in a rational way, based on observation and objective testing in order to separate the real from the imaginary.

So why can we not claim that the idea of multiverses is not simply made up?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1665 by Tangle, posted 02-08-2019 1:28 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1668 by Tangle, posted 02-08-2019 1:40 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17413
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 1667 of 1748 (848535)
02-08-2019 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1664 by Thugpreacha
02-08-2019 1:27 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:

The author concludes that "the universe" creates its own complexity. How is this not also ad hoc?


Do you know what "ad hoc" means? Your ideas about God change to fit the circumstances. How is that similar to the universe creating its own complexity?

Phat writes:

Are there any universes that *may* exist that we cannot yet define or describe?


If we could detect them, we could describe what we detected. If there's nothing we can detect, we can't have any confidence that there's anything there.

Phat writes:

If we correlate the word paint to the word idea, we thus hypothetically have possible universes, multiverses, or dare i say Gods that exist as ideas not yet defined.


You can't have a painting without the medium of paint. You can't have an idea without the medium of mind.

If something exists as an idea, it IS defined.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1664 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-08-2019 1:27 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1675 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-10-2019 11:48 AM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7091
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 1668 of 1748 (848536)
02-08-2019 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1666 by Thugpreacha
02-08-2019 1:32 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:

So why can we not claim that the idea of multiverses is not simply made up?

But we can!

Multiverse is a hypothesis - a 'made up' idea. It's an idea that has some good mathematical support, but it's still an idea waiting to be verified. When it's verified by whatever method we can, it'll become a scientific fact.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1666 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-08-2019 1:32 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4640
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 1669 of 1748 (848543)
02-08-2019 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1660 by Thugpreacha
02-08-2019 1:16 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Are we to conclude that anything a human cannot define or describe does not exist for all practical purposes?

Depends.

If there is an alien species on the other side of the galaxy we know nothing of it. We could never hope to define or describe such a thing ... yet.

Does it exist? "For all practical purposes" ... no.

But, to save the day, there is in the human consciousness the idea of alien creatures on the other side of the galaxy just the fine details aren't filled in all that well.

Before us humans and our new-fangled big abstract-enabled brains there were dinos. She had ideas too. The ideas in her head were I want to eat it or I want to fuck it or I want to run away from it. Not much else. It took the human cogitation to say "the angle of the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of other three sides."

Unless and until whatever it is comes crashing into our notice directly or through our own creativity or leaves breadcrumbs on the sidewalk for us to follow, an idea doesn't come into being.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1660 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-08-2019 1:16 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7091
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 1670 of 1748 (848544)
02-09-2019 3:56 AM


Deserves it's own thread...

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
candle2
Member
Posts: 65
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 1671 of 1748 (848567)
02-10-2019 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1647 by Tangle
02-05-2019 11:05 AM


Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
"Life began by leaching life from rocks (pre-existing life) makes no sense. It doesn't address the origins of life. And evolution cannot account for such extreme diversity of species, nor can it explain complex symbiosis, irreducible complexity, or the incredible appearance of design.

All science disciplines have their origins in philosophy. Evolutionists are not able to separate themselves from philosophy.

Evolution is the pyrite of philosophy.

I haven't witnessed (nor have the fossils) life evolving over billions of years. No one has witnessed this. What we witness (observe) is kind producing kind.

This is observable science. It is replicated century after century. Anything contrary to our observations is pyrite.

You mention "mixing" over billions of years as though you"re describing a cooking recipe.
However, animals of different kinds do not mix

To say that they do requires a leap of faith. And faith is a religion. And according to many, religion has no place in science. It doesn't even belong in school textbooks.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1647 by Tangle, posted 02-05-2019 11:05 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1672 by Tangle, posted 02-10-2019 9:04 AM candle2 has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7091
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 1672 of 1748 (848568)
02-10-2019 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1671 by candle2
02-10-2019 8:51 AM


Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
This doesn't seem like a reply relevant to me. Thank god.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1671 by candle2, posted 02-10-2019 8:51 AM candle2 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1673 by candle2, posted 02-10-2019 2:31 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 65
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 1673 of 1748 (848573)
02-10-2019 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1672 by Tangle
02-10-2019 9:04 AM


Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
I intended to reply to Ringo, but was distracted when my son and grandkids came over. However, my reply applies to all evolutionists.

After all, evolutionists really do believe that the frog turned into a princess, even if it did take billions of years.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1672 by Tangle, posted 02-10-2019 9:04 AM Tangle has not yet responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12996
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1674 of 1748 (849444)
03-10-2019 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1625 by AZPaul3
02-03-2019 2:54 PM


Re: Where does scripture say God sacrificed himself (HIMSELF)?
We'd already been here for 13.7+- billion years before any of those showed up. Trying to starting another creation right where/when one is already going is rather fumble-fingered and feeble-minded I would think. Just how old is this god?
Wait....we are 13.7 billion years old? One would think that the basic building blocks of life might be around, but hardly anything human or even this planet.

If God existed before human imagination, He alone was around 13.7 billion years ago. If not, don't attempt to extrapolate your own imagination as to the natural reality 13.7 billion years ago with you actually being there. It makes humans able to imagine a universe that they can't imagine God in. Imagination can only take us so far. I would guess that the first thing needed would be words of expression. Thus the beginning of our speculation originates through words. Oh, wait...In The Beginning, was The Word... So Who spoke Whom into existence?

Did we imagine God? (Critics will ask "which one" )

OR did God imagine/create us? The jury has not arrived at a definite verdict.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1625 by AZPaul3, posted 02-03-2019 2:54 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1689 by AZPaul3, posted 03-11-2019 8:02 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12996
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1675 of 1748 (849445)
03-10-2019 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1667 by ringo
02-08-2019 1:39 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
ringo writes:

If something exists as an idea, it IS defined.

So again the question. Did this idea create/imagine us before we defined it?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1667 by ringo, posted 02-08-2019 1:39 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1676 by ringo, posted 03-10-2019 2:16 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17413
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 1676 of 1748 (849447)
03-10-2019 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1675 by Thugpreacha
03-10-2019 11:48 AM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:

Did this idea create/imagine us before we defined it?


You wouldn't have any way of knowing, would you? If the real "creator" was completely different from the one that you've made up, you wouldn't know it, would you? If the real creator had died on day eight, you wouldn't know it, would you?

So, if you can't know anything about any supposed creator that imagined us, what difference does it make whether he imagined us or not?


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1675 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-10-2019 11:48 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1677 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-10-2019 3:35 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12996
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1677 of 1748 (849452)
03-10-2019 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1676 by ringo
03-10-2019 2:16 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
So your idea is that even if a God existed, you assume that He expects you to do it yourself and that its best just to leave Him alone.. Got it.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1676 by ringo, posted 03-10-2019 2:16 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1678 by ringo, posted 03-10-2019 4:00 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17413
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 1678 of 1748 (849454)
03-10-2019 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1677 by Thugpreacha
03-10-2019 3:35 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:

So your idea is that even if a God existed, you assume that He expects you to do it yourself...


His expectations don't even enter into it. The fact is that he isn't doing it, so we have to do it ourselves if we want it done.

Phat writes:

...and that its best just to leave Him alone..


Him and the leprechauns. Yup. Might as well leave him alone. Anything else is just wasted effort.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1677 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-10-2019 3:35 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1679 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-11-2019 9:49 AM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12996
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1679 of 1748 (849466)
03-11-2019 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1678 by ringo
03-10-2019 4:00 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
ringo writes:

Might as well leave him alone. Anything else is just wasted effort.

So is a prayer wasted effort?

His expectations don't even enter into it.
Then why is one of His two major commandments to love Him with our whole being?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1678 by ringo, posted 03-10-2019 4:00 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1680 by Tangle, posted 03-11-2019 10:45 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 1681 by dwise1, posted 03-11-2019 10:55 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 1682 by ringo, posted 03-11-2019 11:47 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7091
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 1680 of 1748 (849469)
03-11-2019 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1679 by Thugpreacha
03-11-2019 9:49 AM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:

So is a prayer wasted effort?


Not much point praying to something that isn't there is there? Even if you'd rather believe that he does exist, we know that he doesn't answer prayers so there doesn't seem a lot of point in it.

On the other hand, some people seem to get comfort out of it. Perhaps it makes them feel less helpless?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1679 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-11-2019 9:49 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
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