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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Phat
Member
Posts: 12029
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 706 of 750 (847268)
01-20-2019 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by PaulK
07-21-2015 5:39 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
PaulK writes:

It's the ability to know, not the fact of knowledge which is the issue.
What we will do is only knowable if it is inevitable. So if God could choose to know at any point in time, what we will do must be inevitable at every point in time.

Looking back at these old arguments, I was thinking about what tangle said about why cant God just make heaven now? (The only truly good thing He has supposedly made?) Tangle argues that God is evil for allowing evil,death, and suffering when He logically has the power to prevent it. Ringo makes the same argument, essentially.

One can bring up the point that if God foreknew everyone's destiny, it would only not be evil if everyone was in heaven and if everyone was happy in heaven.

But isn't that a bit how the dogma and mythos was initially presented? Was there not a war in heaven? Did not 1/3 of the angels get cast out, led by Satan? (arguably taught in much of Christian mythos) Granted God created them and thus God knew they would rebel. In essence, this action was the original evil. The evil was in shunning God. We humans cannot fathom the consequences of such an action because we have never experienced that freedom at that level.

Of course, people always joke about God, gods, fairies, demons, spaghetti monsters and all sorts of created gods and deities. I think that Dungeons & Dragons initially popularized such thinking...but it has always been one of humanities basic arguments aginst the idea of an uncreated first cause God that WE initially didnt imagine or make up. The point still stands, however, that we cannot fathom the hypothetical action of freely moving out of the "house" and becoming independent on a heavenly level. We argue that there is really no such thing as that sort of freedom unless God did not *know* or *foreknow* that it would occur. Otherwise, the blame passes to Him for even giving out the freedom to rebel and become independent. So again, it gets back to your first statement:

It's the ability to know, not the fact of knowledge which is the issue.
Hypothetically, imagine that the mythos was true. Imagine that you were being booted out of the club simply for desiring autonomy and independence. Imagine that you were a bit envious that the Creator ran the whole show and could create living things that had a capacity to love Him exclusively...sorta like how our kids supposedly love us more than they do the neighbors. Would you complain if God foreknew that you would become a rebel?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2015 5:39 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 707 by PaulK, posted 01-20-2019 10:45 AM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14715
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 707 of 750 (847273)
01-20-2019 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 706 by Phat
01-20-2019 9:17 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
quote:

But isn't that a bit how the dogma and mythos was initially presented? Was there not a war in heaven? Did not 1/3 of the angels get cast out, led by Satan? (arguably taught in much of Christian mythos) Granted God created them and thus God knew they would rebel. In essence, this action was the original evil. The evil was in shunning God. We humans cannot fathom the consequences of such an action because we have never experienced that freedom at that level

That depends on what you mean by initially. The war in heaven appears in Revelation as part of that books End Times prophecies.

But to go on to your point, where is the freedom in following a course laid down from you from your creation ?

quote:

Hypothetically, imagine that the mythos was true. Imagine that you were being booted out of the club simply for desiring autonomy and independence. Imagine that you were a bit envious that the Creator ran the whole show and could create living things that had a capacity to love Him exclusively...sorta like how our kids supposedly love us more than they do the neighbors. Would you complain if God foreknew that you would become a rebel?

If the envy and the rebellion were Gods choice more than mine I think I could validly complain about being blamed for it - and God could not justly punish me for it. But that is not solely because of foreknowledge, its because of Gods foreknowledge combined with his role as creator. If all of Creation must inevitably follow a course chosen by its Creator then the Creator has full responsibility for everything that happens.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 706 by Phat, posted 01-20-2019 9:17 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 713 by Phat, posted 02-11-2019 11:59 AM PaulK has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 12029
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 708 of 750 (847333)
01-21-2019 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by NoNukes
07-21-2015 6:21 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
nonukes writes:

The creation of a universe that includes the possibility of free will inevitably involves good and bad events. And with respect to the tiny part of the creation that is earth, very often man himself is the author of his own misfortune, other times accident and misfortune befall us. But overall, creation is a positive thing. The only alternative is non-creation.

Agreed.

Do such limitations mean that the creator is not really omnipotent? Well, given that none of us can conceive of a way to create any kind of universe with living beings in it at all, I think that's a rather silly question. If some of us starve on a world that can feed everyone, is that somehow God's fault? Is it God's fault that our sun is only going to last a few billion years? I don't see any of those things as something with which to find fault with God.
Nor do I. Ringo argues that its basically Gods job to do as much good on our behalf as He is capable of doing. Thus the whole hypothetical philosophical argument over what free will actually is, if it has any meaning, and what the implications are in light of the classical apologetic view of God and His communion/role in our lives.

I think that many people limit God to what is described Biblically and fail to allow some leniency in imagining what such a communion would actually be like. Of course, we don't know, but I personally feel that an autocratic stern OT God is totally unrealistic as to what I would anticipate. For those of you who don't believe in God, it is easy to dismiss Him as simply a character in the book (and in many books and in many shapes, sizes, and capabilities/attributes.)

I understand that such an understanding is incompatible with some expectations of omniscience and omnipotence. But quite frankly I think the understanding lots of people have about those things is kind of comic booky.
Fair enough. My hope is that we can arrive at some fair consensus of the expectations, capabilities, and motives of (for you) a hypothetical Creator of all seen and unseen Who desires a Communion and active role in our daily reality ---without being a comic book creation. Tough to do, I'm sure.
What's more, I'm pretty sure that you yourself don't actually possess those beliefs. Instead you are extending what you believe must be the conclusions of people who do believe in an omnipotent God who cares about them in particular.
Yes you hit the proverbial nail on the head. I understand that God is not a cosmic bellhop nor a genie granting wishes. I assume that God has the following attributes:

  • Cares about our individual and collective well being.
  • Has insight into our future in all of its possible trajectories.
  • Gives us the ability to choose certain paths and allows us to do so. In this case, it is, in my opinion, irrelevant if God knows our choice by being omnipresent in the future after we have made our choices. You claim that this ability makes Him responsible. OK, I will go with that, but were He to change our course and correct our mistakes, what good would that do for us? It's like having a teenager...siometime you just give them the car keys and let go. If they happen to die that night, what are you gonna do? Wish you kept them at home??

    Edited by Phat, : name


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 145 by NoNukes, posted 07-21-2015 6:21 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 711 by PaulK, posted 01-21-2019 2:50 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
  • Phat
    Member
    Posts: 12029
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 709 of 750 (847334)
    01-21-2019 11:06 AM
    Reply to: Message 141 by PaulK
    07-21-2015 5:39 PM


    Re: ** FOREknowledge**
    It's the ability to know, not the fact of knowledge which is the issue.
    That last post was meant for you by the way. No nukes is apparently inactive.

    So we can throw all iof the responsibility on God and take none for ourselves, right? After all He allowed satan to exist. He allegedly set up the whole Fall of Man..(according to tradition). My response is so what? So He knows what we will choose. All that this means is that we dont have complete freedom to choose apart from His foreknowledge. If true, so what? So we indict Him. Perhaps a good attorney can get us out of hell? (Except that the lawyers all are there too.

    Seriously...what alternative capability of God would preserve our free will and allow us to share (at least) the responsibility for our final destination?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 141 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2015 5:39 PM PaulK has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 12029
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 710 of 750 (847335)
    01-21-2019 11:13 AM
    Reply to: Message 674 by PaulK
    01-11-2019 12:29 AM


    Hypothetical God For Today's Humans
    God manipulating them into doing bad things so he can punish them ? That doesnt sound like the sort of thing that most Christians would consider normal. Its not the sort of thing that any rational person considers to be good.
    You are sticking to the text too literally. God is not simply some logic problem to be solved by our probing minds. These stories were written by people over a thousand years ago who knew nothing of what we know now. If we go with the argument that the writers were
  • inspired
    and
  • sincere and honest

    We still realize that they are faced with the same human qualities that we ourselves possess were we to write a book on our belief.

    I realize that you are not a believer but if you were asked to describe (reinvent) God the way that your modern logic, empathy, and perspective would create...what would God be like in regards to communion with humans?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 674 by PaulK, posted 01-11-2019 12:29 AM PaulK has not yet responded

      
  • PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 14715
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 2.5


    Message 711 of 750 (847356)
    01-21-2019 2:50 PM
    Reply to: Message 708 by Phat
    01-21-2019 10:58 AM


    Re: ** FOREknowledge**
    First I suggest that you correctly attribute NoNukes words to him, and not to me.

    And there really isnt anything in your answer to me.

    1) If God has absolute knowledge of the future then such knowledge is possible. (Where absolute knowledge means complete and perfectly accurate knowledge)

    2) If absolute knowledge of the future is possible then the future is fixed. Whatever happens must inevitably happen.

    3) if God exists and God created everything else then God has complete control over the initial state of everything else.

    Therefore if God exists and has absolute knowledge of the future the future was chosen by God.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 708 by Phat, posted 01-21-2019 10:58 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

        
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 12029
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 712 of 750 (848589)
    02-11-2019 11:47 AM
    Reply to: Message 702 by AZPaul3
    01-13-2019 7:39 AM


    Re: Definition of free will
    AZPaul3 writes:

    ...at the level of an omniscient deity the outcome is already known. Regardless of the fact that said deity does not guide our decisions, it knows, I assume with perfect certainty, what decisions we will make, has known from the beginning what decisions we would make and what all the outcomes will be. So, from the level of the omniscient deity everything is known and set.

    We are speculating on the conditions at that level. I look at it this way: The Deity is essentially in charge of past,present and future interactions and events...but there is no way we can actually see the interactions and results the way they unfold. It could be that the decisions that we make in time are incorporated by the Deity into the script at the present moment that they are actualized. The deity does not simply sit around for eternity watching an eternal movie. The Deity makes the movie using ad lib actions by the characters in the script. We are co-authoring the movie with the Deitys supervision.

    In your thought experiment then, the exercise of our free will in determining the course of events as we see it, will not, cannot, change the results this omniscient deity already knows to exist.
    It is irrelevant what the Deity sees or knows. The fact is that at the moment we make our decisions they become incorporated into the movie. Perhaps some decisions and actions ultimately end up on the cutting room floor...but thats irrelevant. We still made them. The Deity merely adds us to the script...or not. All that we can do is try our best to make events worthy of historical record. One may argue that this fact eliminates our free will, but i contend that free will is overrated. Critics want free will to mean something they can decide to do that the Deity either does NOT know about or CANNOT change. This is ludicrous demon thinking.
    Doesn't that make our free will an illusion? Are we not actually automatons without any ability to change the larger outcome an omniscient sees.
    All that we cannot change is what must be. We are part of the creative process. We do NOT get to decide what remains in the script. Thus we have no choice but to try and do our best on a daily basis...with or without the reality of a Deity.

    All I'm saying is that the Deity has a viewpoint that we can't predict nor comprehend.

    You would thus argue that its irrelevant as a result and that we are destined to simply procreate and die forever.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 702 by AZPaul3, posted 01-13-2019 7:39 AM AZPaul3 has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 714 by ringo, posted 02-11-2019 12:04 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 716 by AZPaul3, posted 02-11-2019 3:48 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 12029
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 713 of 750 (848590)
    02-11-2019 11:59 AM
    Reply to: Message 707 by PaulK
    01-20-2019 10:45 AM


    Re: ** FOREknowledge**
    PaulK writes:

    If all of Creation must inevitably follow a course chosen by its Creator then the Creator has full responsibility for everything that happens.

    If all of an army must follow a course charted by the generals then, of course, the buck stops with them...but each member of that army is ultimately responsible for the success of the group.

    In the case of God, one could argue that He chooses His group based on their performance in training. He does not have full responsibility for everything that happens, as each member of the group is expected to complete a task or tasks successfully.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 707 by PaulK, posted 01-20-2019 10:45 AM PaulK has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 715 by Tangle, posted 02-11-2019 12:15 PM Phat has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 16128
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 3.2


    Message 714 of 750 (848591)
    02-11-2019 12:04 PM
    Reply to: Message 712 by Phat
    02-11-2019 11:47 AM


    Re: Definition of free will
    Phat writes:

    The Deity makes the movie using ad lib actions by the characters in the script. We are co-authoring the movie with the Deitys supervision.


    Alfred Hitchcock was an omniscient director. John Ford was not.

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 712 by Phat, posted 02-11-2019 11:47 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 6606
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 4.0


    (1)
    Message 715 of 750 (848592)
    02-11-2019 12:15 PM
    Reply to: Message 713 by Phat
    02-11-2019 11:59 AM


    Re: ** FOREknowledge**
    Phat writes:

    In the case of God, one could argue that He chooses His group based on their performance in training.

    Then he isn't all knowing is he?


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 713 by Phat, posted 02-11-2019 11:59 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 717 by Phat, posted 02-11-2019 4:15 PM Tangle has responded
     Message 720 by Phat, posted 02-11-2019 5:35 PM Tangle has responded

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 3755
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 4.8


    Message 716 of 750 (848593)
    02-11-2019 3:48 PM
    Reply to: Message 712 by Phat
    02-11-2019 11:47 AM


    Re: Definition of free will
    It could be that the decisions that we make in time are incorporated by the Deity into the script at the present moment that they are actualized.

    It's your experiment so you can set it up anyway you like. But, the question is, is the deity you experiment with here omniscient or not? If it is then I see no room for our having free will. The deity already knows what happens at every turn in every scene, has known from the start of eternity and, in fact, sees the whole story set in stone at the instance of creation.

    Any changes of mind god may have thunk up have already been thunk up in its perfect omniscience and either added to the play or not all before the creation. For an omniscient being there would be no such thing as second guessing. For an omniscient being all eternity is set within its mind from the start. All of it. Forever.

    Just the deity having the knowledge of what will transpire before the event for every event for all eternity is enough to vacate any notion of free will in humans, and I submit, in god itself.

    If, however, your contention is that we mere mortals have some kind of say in the script from this deity's point of view then that would presuppose that this god doesn't possess omniscience. Which is fine.

    Besides, I always had the impression that this whole free will thing was pretty much limited in the religious community to whether we, by our own thoughts, willingly chose to believe or not. Has nothing to do with our freedom of action in what we will have for dinner tonight.

    And here omniscience in your deity is especially heinous. So the story of an omniscient god goes, it has, from creation, already determined that I will not be counted among the believers and I will suffer an eternity of physical pain for not making a decision I was never destined to make on my own anyway. Once the play starts I couldn't decide otherwise no matter how much free will I'm supposed to have.

    Even the more robust views of free will are more illusion than reality, imho. I'm partial to the idea that we humans don't have much in the way of free will in much of anything since this universe already constrains our decision space to a rather small subset of probabilities.

    This is ludicrous demon thinking.

    Right, Of course it is. Demons.

    You would thus argue that its irrelevant as a result and that we are destined to simply procreate and die forever.

    Yup.


    Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 712 by Phat, posted 02-11-2019 11:47 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 718 by Phat, posted 02-11-2019 4:27 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 12029
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 717 of 750 (848595)
    02-11-2019 4:15 PM
    Reply to: Message 715 by Tangle
    02-11-2019 12:15 PM


    Re: ** FOREknowledge**
    Only because He allows us the opportunity to choose. We essentially become the decisions we make. If some duffer insists that God is a fairytale and that evidence is all that counts in this world, God allows the duffer the opportunity to blow it.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 715 by Tangle, posted 02-11-2019 12:15 PM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 719 by Tangle, posted 02-11-2019 5:28 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 12029
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    (1)
    Message 718 of 750 (848596)
    02-11-2019 4:27 PM
    Reply to: Message 716 by AZPaul3
    02-11-2019 3:48 PM


    All Knowing and ALL Doing
    AZ writes:

    the question is, is the deity you experiment with here omniscient or not? If it is then I see no room for our having free will. The deity already knows what happens at every turn in every scene, has known from the start of eternity and, in fact, sees the whole story set in stone at the instance of creation.

    Point being that you don't know. Forget what the Deity knows. Just do your best.
    For an omniscient being all eternity is set within its mind from the start. All of it. Forever.
    Great! God is doing His job of being God. Why waste time trying to make a case that you have no free will? You can argue that one later if you ever get the opportunity after all of the chips have fallen where they may. Perhaps you will have no need to argue it, however.
    AZ writes:

    If, however, your contention is that we mere mortals have some kind of say in the script from this deity's point of view then that would presuppose that this god doesn't possess omniscience. Which is fine.

    We have a say in what we choose to do. We have no say in doing something that the Deity does not know about . (Or can not know about. ) Thus we can "presuppose" that God does not have omniscience but we can not prove it. Which is also fine.
    AZ writes:

    I'm partial to the idea that we humans don't have much in the way of free will in much of anything since this universe already constrains our decision space to a rather small subset of probabilities.

    We shouldn't exaggerate our potential, given reality as we see it. It is one thing to have the mental ability to hypothesize multiverses. it is quite another to be able to even effectively manage our own dust speck that we inhabit. Waiting on God to *do* everything seems pointless. I agree with those of you who preach our responsibility to make meaningful changes ourselves and not expect everyone to unite and wait for God to make the next move.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 716 by AZPaul3, posted 02-11-2019 3:48 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 6606
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 4.0


    Message 719 of 750 (848599)
    02-11-2019 5:28 PM
    Reply to: Message 717 by Phat
    02-11-2019 4:15 PM


    Re: ** FOREknowledge**
    Phat writes:

    Only because He allows us the opportunity to choose.

    If we can choose without him knowing the outcome beforehand, he's not all knowing. Is he?

    We essentially become the decisions we make.

    Sure. That's got diddley to do with god though hasn't it?

    If some duffer insists that God is a fairytale and that evidence is all that counts in this world, God allows the duffer the opportunity to blow it.

    Don't be silly.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 717 by Phat, posted 02-11-2019 4:15 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 12029
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 720 of 750 (848600)
    02-11-2019 5:35 PM
    Reply to: Message 715 by Tangle
    02-11-2019 12:15 PM


    Re: ** FOREknowledge**
    The whole argument, silly though it is, is what Tangle can and can not freely do and how much a hypothetical God character could or would know. So lets assume you were dealing directly with God. It may go something like this:

    GOD: Tangle, I realize you have honestly used your reasoning to discount my existence. Now that I AM evident, do you have anything to say?

    Tangle: First off, I'm not going to suddenly grovel. You have a lot of explaining to do and I have many questions. To be honest, I'm not certain I am even sane at this moment!This world has gone bonkers!

    GOD: It always has been bonkers. Humanity has had to experience this lesson.
    Tangle: Your bloody book has few solutions! And why did you order people killed? What type of tyrant are you? And why all of this silly bells and smells? Sorry...forgive me for being honest...or smite me, I suppose....
    GODTangle, you put too much stock into that book! I was around long before the book!
    Tangle: How were we to know that? You gave us brains and minds that require evidence...not fairytales! That book is all we have ever had. I don't even know if Im talking to you or to a hallucination, honestly!
    GOD: If it makes you feel any better, Phat and Faith know me no better than you do. I appreciate your honesty. Allow me to grab my pole and let's go fishing!
    Tangle: OK, but why do you need a pole to catch fish?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 715 by Tangle, posted 02-11-2019 12:15 PM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 721 by Tangle, posted 02-12-2019 2:49 AM Phat has responded

      
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