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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Which Jesus? The one in the book that you reject or the one that you make up in your head?
As long as we are imagining a hypothetical God, what is so wrong with the One that Jesus so lovingly called "Father"? He seems good enough for Jesus. Phat writes:
Yes, if He's evil.
God can still be omniscient and not make changes. Phat writes:
Why would we have to be "the center of the universe" to know the difference between good and evil? We have no place to judge Him as evil since we are not the center of the universe.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
According to the book, God didn't give it to us. It was against His will. We stole the knowledge, much like Prometheus stole fire.
We either knew good and evil because God gave us that, as described in the book... Phat writes:
We understand that it is for our benefit, Nobody else's.
... or because we evolved to understand it. Phat writes:
They are our standards, Nobody else's. What is presumptuous is thinking that you know what the alien overlord's standards are. Either way, Judging God is still presumptuous unless one believes that God needs to measure up to our imaginative standards.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
The four spiritual laws are nonsense. Its as simple as Bill Brights four spiritual laws. And your bumper sticker is a false dichotomy. It ignores the humanity-centered life (which incidentally, Christ advocated).
Phat writes:
And it's presumptuous to think it's 1 and not 2. There are only two possible ways to know Gods mind. 1) He gave us insight.2) We made it up. And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
But that isn't what the book says. It says that God lied to Adam and Eve, telling them that they would die if they ate the fruit. In fact, the fruit made them grow up.
If we are to hold the God of our discussion to the one in the book, so too should we own up to the fact that we are rebellious thieving humans hellbent on determining our own destiny. Phat writes:
The book's solution is to love thy neighbour as thyself - i.e. grow up and solve the problems instead of relying on God to spoon-feed you the solutions. And the book has solutions for that.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
But there is no "communion".
This communion includes Christ. Phat writes:
Sure we are. Why would you assert otherwise?
We are not simply a bunch of evolving humans making up God and Christ. Phat writes:
Huh? That's exactly why you make up the character - because you think you have The Answer and you got it from the character. If so, your point is meaningless. Why make up a character and then tell everyone they must do what the character advocates?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: If God wanted us to grow up and not need Him, He sure put a difficult edict in place.quote: Phat writes:
You're distorting what He said. You're deliberately trying to make it look impractical.
Sell all we have?? Help the poor and become homeless yourself? Phat writes:
And oddly enough, you don't trust God to take care of you. The difference is that you expect other socialists to take care of you while I don't trust them.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I didn't tell you to do anything. I just pointed out what Jesus told you.
Then you come along and tell me to give it all away since *my* book says to do exactly that. Phat writes:
Yes they will. People won't simply magically become socialist and help each other through old age.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Food banks, shelters....
But where is the evidence? Phat writes:
Who promised you paradise on earth? Like I said, at best we have food banks and shelters. Hardly paradise on earth.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
And yet, the early Christians did it. The problem seems to be in your logic, not theirs.
You claim He wants us to give everything away. As does the one in the book. I claim that this surely must be misunderstood since it is illogical. Phat writes:
I "advocate" socialism because it works. It's the natural state of every social species. You like it because you advocate socialism. I just looked up Acts 4 again for the purpose of this discussion:
quote:Note, "according as he had need." Phat writes:
But He doesn't. You're defying the evidence. I realize that Capitalism is not the answer, but my problem, if any, is that I expect God to take care of me...rather than the people.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Maybe you should eat some fruit and grow up. My family did, indirectly. I realize that Jesus never did. But He should have. I think I'm as mad at God as Stephen Fry. But I'm not mad about viruses and Ebola. Im mad that life has not been fair. Lots of followers have crappy lives on earth and hope for a better eternity. I expect eternity but rant against an unfair life now.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
What if science is wrong?
Well, it is. Quite often. The good news is that it's self-correcting.
I want to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible.
The way to do that is to not "believe" things that can not be demonstrated as true.
It's a meaningless panacea when we invent a god that can do anything and be anything . It serves as an answer to every question and an explanation for nothing.
I don't agree with that. Believers seem to put most of their effort into making excuses for God not doing anything.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You sure do. You're constantly telling us thst God wants us to learn things for ourselves.
ringo writes:
I don't... Believers seem to put most of their effort into making excuses for God not doing anything. Phat writes:
And yet you can't point to anything that He actually does. ...chiefly because I don't believe that He does nothing.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
The same way you'd know whether something was initiated, influenced or completed by anybody else.
To go further, how would I know whether something was initiated,influenced, or completed by God or not? Phat writes:
Maybe you should do like L. Ron Hubbard and not make a distinction between fiction and religion at all.
Frankly, I think that we humans who choose to believe in God embarrass and limit ourselves by limiting our belief to the old stories. Phat writes:
So, His absence from the obvious effective communication media suggests that He is not alive and interactive with humanity today. If God were alive and interactive with humanity today, God would, as Sam Harris asserts, use the internet and make videos. God would surely not limit His eternal message to a bunch of old stories.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
There you go again, making excuses for God not doing anything - and contradicting your own statement that He "would" be using the Internet to communicate if He was alive today. Perhaps He expects us to be His spokesmen.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
candle2 writes:
If Lot thought the men of Sodom were homosexuals, why did he offer them his daughters? God destroyed the people of Sodom for homosrxuality. Read it for yourself in Gen. 19.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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