Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,872 Year: 4,129/9,624 Month: 1,000/974 Week: 327/286 Day: 48/40 Hour: 2/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 729 of 1444 (848631)
02-12-2019 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 727 by Phat
02-12-2019 11:31 AM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Phat writes:
As long as we are imagining a hypothetical God, what is so wrong with the One that Jesus so lovingly called "Father"? He seems good enough for Jesus.
Which Jesus? The one in the book that you reject or the one that you make up in your head?
Phat writes:
God can still be omniscient and not make changes.
Yes, if He's evil.
Phat writes:
We have no place to judge Him as evil since we are not the center of the universe.
Why would we have to be "the center of the universe" to know the difference between good and evil?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 727 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 11:31 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 730 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 11:50 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 731 of 1444 (848635)
02-12-2019 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 730 by Phat
02-12-2019 11:50 AM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Phat writes:
We either knew good and evil because God gave us that, as described in the book...
According to the book, God didn't give it to us. It was against His will. We stole the knowledge, much like Prometheus stole fire.
Phat writes:
... or because we evolved to understand it.
We understand that it is for our benefit, Nobody else's.
Phat writes:
Either way, Judging God is still presumptuous unless one believes that God needs to measure up to our imaginative standards.
They are our standards, Nobody else's. What is presumptuous is thinking that you know what the alien overlord's standards are.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 730 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 11:50 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 732 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 12:11 PM ringo has replied
 Message 733 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 12:18 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 734 of 1444 (848641)
02-12-2019 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 732 by Phat
02-12-2019 12:11 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Phat writes:
Its as simple as Bill Brights four spiritual laws.
The four spiritual laws are nonsense.
And your bumper sticker is a false dichotomy. It ignores the humanity-centered life (which incidentally, Christ advocated).
Phat writes:
There are only two possible ways to know Gods mind.
1) He gave us insight.
2) We made it up.
And it's presumptuous to think it's 1 and not 2.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 732 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 12:11 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 735 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 12:21 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 736 of 1444 (848643)
02-12-2019 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 733 by Phat
02-12-2019 12:18 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Phat writes:
If we are to hold the God of our discussion to the one in the book, so too should we own up to the fact that we are rebellious thieving humans hellbent on determining our own destiny.
But that isn't what the book says. It says that God lied to Adam and Eve, telling them that they would die if they ate the fruit. In fact, the fruit made them grow up.
Phat writes:
And the book has solutions for that.
The book's solution is to love thy neighbour as thyself - i.e. grow up and solve the problems instead of relying on God to spoon-feed you the solutions.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 733 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 12:18 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 738 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 12:28 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 737 of 1444 (848644)
02-12-2019 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 735 by Phat
02-12-2019 12:21 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Phat writes:
This communion includes Christ.
But there is no "communion".
Phat writes:
We are not simply a bunch of evolving humans making up God and Christ.
Sure we are. Why would you assert otherwise?
Phat writes:
If so, your point is meaningless. Why make up a character and then tell everyone they must do what the character advocates?
Huh? That's exactly why you make up the character - because you think you have The Answer and you got it from the character.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 735 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 12:21 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 739 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 12:33 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 740 of 1444 (848648)
02-12-2019 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 738 by Phat
02-12-2019 12:28 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Phat writes:
If God wanted us to grow up and not need Him, He sure put a difficult edict in place.
quote:
Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Phat writes:
Sell all we have?? Help the poor and become homeless yourself?
You're distorting what He said. You're deliberately trying to make it look impractical.
Phat writes:
The difference is that you expect other socialists to take care of you while I don't trust them.
And oddly enough, you don't trust God to take care of you.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 738 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 12:28 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 741 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 12:39 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 742 of 1444 (848651)
02-12-2019 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 741 by Phat
02-12-2019 12:39 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Phat writes:
Then you come along and tell me to give it all away since *my* book says to do exactly that.
I didn't tell you to do anything. I just pointed out what Jesus told you.
Phat writes:
People won't simply magically become socialist and help each other through old age.
Yes they will.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 741 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 12:39 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 743 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 12:55 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 744 of 1444 (848653)
02-12-2019 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 743 by Phat
02-12-2019 12:55 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Phat writes:
But where is the evidence?
Food banks, shelters....
Phat writes:
Like I said, at best we have food banks and shelters. Hardly paradise on earth.
Who promised you paradise on earth?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 743 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 12:55 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 745 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 1:11 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 746 of 1444 (848655)
02-12-2019 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 739 by Phat
02-12-2019 12:33 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Phat writes:
You claim He wants us to give everything away. As does the one in the book. I claim that this surely must be misunderstood since it is illogical.
And yet, the early Christians did it. The problem seems to be in your logic, not theirs.
Phat writes:
You like it because you advocate socialism.
I "advocate" socialism because it works. It's the natural state of every social species.
I just looked up Acts 4 again for the purpose of this discussion:
quote:
Acts 4:34-35 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, and laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
Note, "according as he had need."
Phat writes:
I realize that Capitalism is not the answer, but my problem, if any, is that I expect God to take care of me...rather than the people.
But He doesn't. You're defying the evidence.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 739 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 12:33 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 747 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 1:16 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 748 of 1444 (848657)
02-12-2019 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 745 by Phat
02-12-2019 1:11 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Phat writes:
My family did, indirectly. I realize that Jesus never did. But He should have. I think I'm as mad at God as Stephen Fry. But I'm not mad about viruses and Ebola. Im mad that life has not been fair. Lots of followers have crappy lives on earth and hope for a better eternity. I expect eternity but rant against an unfair life now.
Maybe you should eat some fruit and grow up.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 745 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 1:11 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 756 by Phat, posted 02-17-2019 4:21 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 765 of 1444 (848905)
02-18-2019 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 756 by Phat
02-17-2019 4:21 PM


Re: Matts 2 cents
What if science is wrong?
Well, it is. Quite often. The good news is that it's self-correcting.
I want to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible.
The way to do that is to not "believe" things that can not be demonstrated as true.
It's a meaningless panacea when we invent a god that can do anything and be anything . It serves as an answer to every question and an explanation for nothing.
I don't agree with that. Believers seem to put most of their effort into making excuses for God not doing anything.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 756 by Phat, posted 02-17-2019 4:21 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 766 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 12:42 PM ringo has replied
 Message 767 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 12:51 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 769 of 1444 (848917)
02-18-2019 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 766 by Phat
02-18-2019 12:42 PM


Re: Matts 2 cents
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
Believers seem to put most of their effort into making excuses for God not doing anything.
I don't...
You sure do. You're constantly telling us thst God wants us to learn things for ourselves.
Phat writes:
...chiefly because I don't believe that He does nothing.
And yet you can't point to anything that He actually does.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 766 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 12:42 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 770 of 1444 (848918)
02-18-2019 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 767 by Phat
02-18-2019 12:51 PM


Re: God? DO SOMETHING!
Phat writes:
To go further, how would I know whether something was initiated,influenced, or completed by God or not?
The same way you'd know whether something was initiated, influenced or completed by anybody else.
Phat writes:
Frankly, I think that we humans who choose to believe in God embarrass and limit ourselves by limiting our belief to the old stories.
Maybe you should do like L. Ron Hubbard and not make a distinction between fiction and religion at all.
Phat writes:
If God were alive and interactive with humanity today, God would, as Sam Harris asserts, use the internet and make videos. God would surely not limit His eternal message to a bunch of old stories.
So, His absence from the obvious effective communication media suggests that He is not alive and interactive with humanity today.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 767 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 12:51 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 771 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 1:35 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 772 of 1444 (848923)
02-18-2019 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 771 by Phat
02-18-2019 1:35 PM


Re: God? DO SOMETHING!
Phat writes:
Perhaps He expects us to be His spokesmen.
There you go again, making excuses for God not doing anything - and contradicting your own statement that He "would" be using the Internet to communicate if He was alive today.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 771 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 1:35 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 793 of 1444 (849005)
02-20-2019 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 788 by candle2
02-20-2019 9:10 AM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
candle2 writes:
God destroyed the people of Sodom for homosrxuality. Read it for yourself in Gen. 19.
If Lot thought the men of Sodom were homosexuals, why did he offer them his daughters?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 788 by candle2, posted 02-20-2019 9:10 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 797 by candle2, posted 02-21-2019 7:21 AM ringo has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024