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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
But that isn't what the book says. It says that God lied to Adam and Eve, telling them that they would die if they ate the fruit. In fact, the fruit made them grow up.
If we are to hold the God of our discussion to the one in the book, so too should we own up to the fact that we are rebellious thieving humans hellbent on determining our own destiny. Phat writes:
The book's solution is to love thy neighbour as thyself - i.e. grow up and solve the problems instead of relying on God to spoon-feed you the solutions. And the book has solutions for that.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
But there is no "communion".
This communion includes Christ. Phat writes:
Sure we are. Why would you assert otherwise?
We are not simply a bunch of evolving humans making up God and Christ. Phat writes:
Huh? That's exactly why you make up the character - because you think you have The Answer and you got it from the character. If so, your point is meaningless. Why make up a character and then tell everyone they must do what the character advocates?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
The book's solution is to love thy neighbour as thyself - i.e. grow up and solve the problems instead of relying on God to spoon-feed you the solutions. Again we differ. You don't trust most pastors or apologists. I don't trust the motives of socialism or socialist leaders. Jesus may be the lone exception. And i still disagree with your seemingly only solution of helping the poor at the expense of your own middle-class money while leaving the rich to their own destiny. If God wanted us to grow up and not need Him, He sure put a difficult edict in place. Sell all we have?? Help the poor and become homeless yourself? (And you know that is nearly true for both you and I. The difference is that you expect other socialists to take care of you while I don't trust them. At best, they will have me living in a shelter with other homeless. Some blessing!Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Phat writes:
Why make up a character and then tell everyone they must do what the character advocates?ringo writes: OK then, assume we both made up our character from the book. You claim He wants us to give everything away. As does the one in the book. I claim that this surely must be misunderstood since it is illogical. You like it because you advocate socialism. I realize that Capitalism is not the answer, but my problem, if any, is that I expect God to take care of me...rather than the people. That's exactly why you make up the character - because you think you have The Answer and you got it from the character.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: If God wanted us to grow up and not need Him, He sure put a difficult edict in place.quote: Phat writes:
You're distorting what He said. You're deliberately trying to make it look impractical.
Sell all we have?? Help the poor and become homeless yourself? Phat writes:
And oddly enough, you don't trust God to take care of you. The difference is that you expect other socialists to take care of you while I don't trust them.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
And oddly enough, you don't trust God to take care of you.
well....you are correct. I have a problem with God. I believe that he exists and is interactive with humanity, but I see no evidence of Him taking care of me as I get older and poorer. Thus I cling to everything I have. Then you come along and tell me to give it all away since *my* book says to do exactly that. People won't simply magically become socialist and help each other through old age. We have social security, which helps some...but there is no promises apart from blood, toil, tears, and sweat. Are you surprised that I don't trust Him> He does not make it easy for me.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I didn't tell you to do anything. I just pointed out what Jesus told you.
Then you come along and tell me to give it all away since *my* book says to do exactly that. Phat writes:
Yes they will. People won't simply magically become socialist and help each other through old age.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Yes they will. At least you have faith in something! But where is the evidence? Like I said, at best we have food banks and shelters. Hardly paradise on earth.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Food banks, shelters....
But where is the evidence? Phat writes:
Who promised you paradise on earth? Like I said, at best we have food banks and shelters. Hardly paradise on earth.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Who promised you paradise on earth? My family did, indirectly. I realize that Jesus never did. But He should have. I think I'm as mad at God as Stephen Fry. But I'm not mad about viruses and Ebola. Im mad that life has not been fair. Lots of followers have crappy lives on earth and hope for a better eternity. I expect eternity but rant against an unfair life now. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
And yet, the early Christians did it. The problem seems to be in your logic, not theirs.
You claim He wants us to give everything away. As does the one in the book. I claim that this surely must be misunderstood since it is illogical. Phat writes:
I "advocate" socialism because it works. It's the natural state of every social species. You like it because you advocate socialism. I just looked up Acts 4 again for the purpose of this discussion:
quote:Note, "according as he had need." Phat writes:
But He doesn't. You're defying the evidence. I realize that Capitalism is not the answer, but my problem, if any, is that I expect God to take care of me...rather than the people.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
AllI know is that the Republican Christians have it all wrong. They think that freedom to acquire unlimited wealth is a birthright. I am disappointed with reality on so many levels. Im gonna take a nap before work...thank God I still have a job! (But a possible strike looms here in Denver...and its the darn liberals that wanna push it this time. I get it from both sides.)
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Maybe you should eat some fruit and grow up. My family did, indirectly. I realize that Jesus never did. But He should have. I think I'm as mad at God as Stephen Fry. But I'm not mad about viruses and Ebola. Im mad that life has not been fair. Lots of followers have crappy lives on earth and hope for a better eternity. I expect eternity but rant against an unfair life now.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Phat writes: AllI know is that the Republican Christians have it all wrong. But, but, but.....ICANT!!!
They think that freedom to acquire unlimited wealth is a birthright. That's the American dream-lie. It's a cultural belief. Older cultures tend to be more open to the idea that everyone should be able to do well, but not so obnoxiously well that others suffer. I saw the film VICE last week. Terrifying. You can't leave society to naked Darwinism.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
Hi Phat
I'm sorry for the trials you are facing. I have no idea if the will help or not but here is a talk given by Rob Bell a couple of years ago. Take care, and thanks for all that you contribute to this forum both as a moderator and participant with your openness and your insights.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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