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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 736 of 1444 (848643)
02-12-2019 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 733 by Phat
02-12-2019 12:18 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Phat writes:
If we are to hold the God of our discussion to the one in the book, so too should we own up to the fact that we are rebellious thieving humans hellbent on determining our own destiny.
But that isn't what the book says. It says that God lied to Adam and Eve, telling them that they would die if they ate the fruit. In fact, the fruit made them grow up.
Phat writes:
And the book has solutions for that.
The book's solution is to love thy neighbour as thyself - i.e. grow up and solve the problems instead of relying on God to spoon-feed you the solutions.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 733 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 12:18 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 738 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 12:28 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 737 of 1444 (848644)
02-12-2019 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 735 by Phat
02-12-2019 12:21 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Phat writes:
This communion includes Christ.
But there is no "communion".
Phat writes:
We are not simply a bunch of evolving humans making up God and Christ.
Sure we are. Why would you assert otherwise?
Phat writes:
If so, your point is meaningless. Why make up a character and then tell everyone they must do what the character advocates?
Huh? That's exactly why you make up the character - because you think you have The Answer and you got it from the character.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 735 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 12:21 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 739 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 12:33 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 738 of 1444 (848645)
02-12-2019 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 736 by ringo
02-12-2019 12:22 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
The book's solution is to love thy neighbour as thyself - i.e. grow up and solve the problems instead of relying on God to spoon-feed you the solutions.
Again we differ. You don't trust most pastors or apologists. I don't trust the motives of socialism or socialist leaders. Jesus may be the lone exception. And i still disagree with your seemingly only solution of helping the poor at the expense of your own middle-class money while leaving the rich to their own destiny.
If God wanted us to grow up and not need Him, He sure put a difficult edict in place. Sell all we have?? Help the poor and become homeless yourself? (And you know that is nearly true for both you and I. The difference is that you expect other socialists to take care of you while I don't trust them. At best, they will have me living in a shelter with other homeless. Some blessing!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 736 by ringo, posted 02-12-2019 12:22 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 740 by ringo, posted 02-12-2019 12:35 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 739 of 1444 (848647)
02-12-2019 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 737 by ringo
02-12-2019 12:26 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Phat writes:
Why make up a character and then tell everyone they must do what the character advocates?
ringo writes:
That's exactly why you make up the character - because you think you have The Answer and you got it from the character.
OK then, assume we both made up our character from the book. You claim He wants us to give everything away. As does the one in the book. I claim that this surely must be misunderstood since it is illogical. You like it because you advocate socialism. I realize that Capitalism is not the answer, but my problem, if any, is that I expect God to take care of me...rather than the people.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 737 by ringo, posted 02-12-2019 12:26 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 746 by ringo, posted 02-12-2019 1:14 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 740 of 1444 (848648)
02-12-2019 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 738 by Phat
02-12-2019 12:28 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Phat writes:
If God wanted us to grow up and not need Him, He sure put a difficult edict in place.
quote:
Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Phat writes:
Sell all we have?? Help the poor and become homeless yourself?
You're distorting what He said. You're deliberately trying to make it look impractical.
Phat writes:
The difference is that you expect other socialists to take care of you while I don't trust them.
And oddly enough, you don't trust God to take care of you.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 738 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 12:28 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 741 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 12:39 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 741 of 1444 (848650)
02-12-2019 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 740 by ringo
02-12-2019 12:35 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
And oddly enough, you don't trust God to take care of you.
well....you are correct. I have a problem with God. I believe that he exists and is interactive with humanity, but I see no evidence of Him taking care of me as I get older and poorer. Thus I cling to everything I have. Then you come along and tell me to give it all away since *my* book says to do exactly that. People won't simply magically become socialist and help each other through old age. We have social security, which helps some...but there is no promises apart from blood, toil, tears, and sweat. Are you surprised that I don't trust Him> He does not make it easy for me.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 740 by ringo, posted 02-12-2019 12:35 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 742 by ringo, posted 02-12-2019 12:47 PM Phat has replied
 Message 816 by candle2, posted 02-27-2019 7:31 AM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 742 of 1444 (848651)
02-12-2019 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 741 by Phat
02-12-2019 12:39 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Phat writes:
Then you come along and tell me to give it all away since *my* book says to do exactly that.
I didn't tell you to do anything. I just pointed out what Jesus told you.
Phat writes:
People won't simply magically become socialist and help each other through old age.
Yes they will.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 741 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 12:39 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 743 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 12:55 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 743 of 1444 (848652)
02-12-2019 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 742 by ringo
02-12-2019 12:47 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Yes they will.
At least you have faith in something! But where is the evidence? Like I said, at best we have food banks and shelters. Hardly paradise on earth.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 742 by ringo, posted 02-12-2019 12:47 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 744 by ringo, posted 02-12-2019 12:58 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 744 of 1444 (848653)
02-12-2019 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 743 by Phat
02-12-2019 12:55 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Phat writes:
But where is the evidence?
Food banks, shelters....
Phat writes:
Like I said, at best we have food banks and shelters. Hardly paradise on earth.
Who promised you paradise on earth?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 743 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 12:55 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 745 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 1:11 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 745 of 1444 (848654)
02-12-2019 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 744 by ringo
02-12-2019 12:58 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Who promised you paradise on earth?
My family did, indirectly. I realize that Jesus never did. But He should have. I think I'm as mad at God as Stephen Fry. But I'm not mad about viruses and Ebola. Im mad that life has not been fair. Lots of followers have crappy lives on earth and hope for a better eternity. I expect eternity but rant against an unfair life now.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 744 by ringo, posted 02-12-2019 12:58 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 748 by ringo, posted 02-12-2019 1:16 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 746 of 1444 (848655)
02-12-2019 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 739 by Phat
02-12-2019 12:33 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Phat writes:
You claim He wants us to give everything away. As does the one in the book. I claim that this surely must be misunderstood since it is illogical.
And yet, the early Christians did it. The problem seems to be in your logic, not theirs.
Phat writes:
You like it because you advocate socialism.
I "advocate" socialism because it works. It's the natural state of every social species.
I just looked up Acts 4 again for the purpose of this discussion:
quote:
Acts 4:34-35 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, and laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
Note, "according as he had need."
Phat writes:
I realize that Capitalism is not the answer, but my problem, if any, is that I expect God to take care of me...rather than the people.
But He doesn't. You're defying the evidence.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 739 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 12:33 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 747 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 1:16 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 747 of 1444 (848656)
02-12-2019 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 746 by ringo
02-12-2019 1:14 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
AllI know is that the Republican Christians have it all wrong. They think that freedom to acquire unlimited wealth is a birthright. I am disappointed with reality on so many levels. Im gonna take a nap before work...thank God I still have a job! (But a possible strike looms here in Denver...and its the darn liberals that wanna push it this time. I get it from both sides.)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 746 by ringo, posted 02-12-2019 1:14 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 749 by Tangle, posted 02-12-2019 1:24 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 750 by GDR, posted 02-12-2019 3:54 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 751 by candle2, posted 02-17-2019 8:07 AM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 748 of 1444 (848657)
02-12-2019 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 745 by Phat
02-12-2019 1:11 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Phat writes:
My family did, indirectly. I realize that Jesus never did. But He should have. I think I'm as mad at God as Stephen Fry. But I'm not mad about viruses and Ebola. Im mad that life has not been fair. Lots of followers have crappy lives on earth and hope for a better eternity. I expect eternity but rant against an unfair life now.
Maybe you should eat some fruit and grow up.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 745 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 1:11 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 756 by Phat, posted 02-17-2019 4:21 PM ringo has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 749 of 1444 (848658)
02-12-2019 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 747 by Phat
02-12-2019 1:16 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Phat writes:
AllI know is that the Republican Christians have it all wrong.
But, but, but.....ICANT!!!
They think that freedom to acquire unlimited wealth is a birthright.
That's the American dream-lie. It's a cultural belief. Older cultures tend to be more open to the idea that everyone should be able to do well, but not so obnoxiously well that others suffer.
I saw the film VICE last week. Terrifying. You can't leave society to naked Darwinism.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 747 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 1:16 PM Phat has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 750 of 1444 (848660)
02-12-2019 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 747 by Phat
02-12-2019 1:16 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Hi Phat
I'm sorry for the trials you are facing. I have no idea if the will help or not but here is a talk given by Rob Bell a couple of years ago.
Take care, and thanks for all that you contribute to this forum both as a moderator and participant with your openness and your insights.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 747 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 1:16 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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