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Author Topic:   Did Jesus Exist? by Bart Ehrman
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7416
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 68 of 131 (660242)
04-22-2012 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Theodoric
04-07-2012 1:05 PM


Still waiting
Feel free to provide historical evidence at any time.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Theodoric, posted 04-07-2012 1:05 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7416
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 73 of 131 (848584)
02-11-2019 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Pressie
02-11-2019 5:43 AM


Re: Will Jesus Mythers be forced to drop the arguments from Paul (and do a total reboot)?
Basically he is doing a gish gallop. Obviously, he has no interest in honest debate.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop

Edited by Theodoric, : Url link


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Pressie, posted 02-11-2019 5:43 AM Pressie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-11-2019 8:19 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7416
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 80 of 131 (848619)
02-12-2019 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Pressie
02-12-2019 7:23 AM


Re: Will Jesus Mythers be forced to drop the arguments from Paul (and do a total reboot)?
The amazing thing to me, is the idea and presentation of the argument that the bible is self proving. If there are multiple mentions in the bible then that is treated as multiple attestations of evidence.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Pressie, posted 02-12-2019 7:23 AM Pressie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-12-2019 6:49 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7416
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 83 of 131 (848713)
02-14-2019 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by LamarkNewAge
02-13-2019 9:44 PM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
Kind of funny that someone actually used Duane Gish in a gallop. First time I have seen that.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-13-2019 9:44 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7416
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 88 of 131 (848805)
02-15-2019 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by ringo
02-15-2019 10:43 AM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
LMN has no desire to discuss. All they want to do is proselytize and evangelize.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 02-15-2019 10:43 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7416
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 103 of 131 (848855)
02-16-2019 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by ringo
02-16-2019 3:02 PM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
Still waiting for someone to provide us with independent, contemporary historical evidence for the Jesus of the Bible. Instead of that evidence we get the kitchen sink of crap that does not have anything to do with the historicity of Jesus. It doesn't matter if a few dozen people in 100 CE thought he was a historic figure. Even if everything Josephus supposedly wrote about Jesus was actually written by Josephus(we know it could not have because an observant Jew would never refer to anyone being the Messiah) it is not evidence of a historical Jesus. Just evidence that 70 years after the supposed death of the dude people thought he was a historical character.
None of what LMN has thrown against the wall, and it is a lot, is historical evidence for existence of Jesus.
There is no mention of Jesus in the historical record. None. We have some anonymous writings that are post 70CE that present fantastical stories, but there is nothing to corroborate them. The earliest writer in Christianity, Paul, presents a nonhistorical Jesus. He tells us nothing about the historical Jesus, he talks about the mystical Jesus.
We know very little about this Paul. He is a shadow in the historical record. No other writers of that time period mention him. Then again why would an itinerant preacher of a minor mystery cult be mentioned by anyone of substance. We do not know where he was born, when he died or anyone else in the historical record that actually knew him or wrote about him. We do not even know his name. All we have is the book of Acts, which is not a historical document. Nothing in it can be corroborated by outside sources.

Christians do not seem to understand that they cannot use the bible itself to corroborate passages from the bible. Also, someone writing 100's of years later cannot be considered a primary source and evidence.

There is no contemporary, independent historical source that is evidence for the historicity of the Jesus Christ character.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by ringo, posted 02-16-2019 3:02 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by ringo, posted 02-16-2019 3:29 PM Theodoric has replied
 Message 109 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-17-2019 12:48 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7416
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 106 of 131 (848858)
02-16-2019 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by ringo
02-16-2019 3:29 PM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
I am a Jesus myther. I agree that the similarity of Jesus to other myths can be an over played card. The thing is, until there is historical evidence for Jesus of the bible, mythicism is the default.

The reputable writers that write in support of mythicism do not make that the basis of their argument. Doherty, Carrier and Fitzgerald make it very clear there is no historical evidence and then, as part of their works, present arguments showing how the Jesus character is very similar to other mythical characters. That is not the basis or the root of their argument though.
Anti-mythers want people to believe that is the case, but in reality it is not. Doherty and Carrier can be a bit of a slog to get through if you are not very interested in the topic or are not used to reading or studying technical historical or philosophical works. Fitzgerald is a bit more accessible and readable.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by ringo, posted 02-16-2019 3:29 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7416
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 111 of 131 (848871)
02-17-2019 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by LamarkNewAge
02-17-2019 12:48 AM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
Again you show that there is no independent, contemporary evidence for the existence of the Jesus Christ character. 100 CE is not contemporary to 30 CE. That would be the same as claiming that we are contemporary to WWII. I know of no one alive that would be able to confirm or deny that there was a wandering preacher in this area during the 1930's and 40's. Your copypasta gishgallop just reaffirms that you have no evidence. Thank you for helping me to make my points.

As for Josephus you are less than honest in your comments. IN the Testimonium he is reputed to say.

quote:
He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Christ.

Not something an observant Jew would say. But more importantly it does not matter. This is not evidence of Jesus. It is evidence that people believed in him. No corroboration. Find corroboration.

If all you reply with is copypasta and a bunch of shit thrown against the wall I am done with you.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-17-2019 12:48 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-17-2019 8:30 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7416
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 114 of 131 (848888)
02-17-2019 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by LamarkNewAge
02-17-2019 8:30 PM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
I have no idea why you think what you wrote is relevant to my post.

As for Josephus, you miss my point completely. The one Jesus reference puts the other into doubt.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-17-2019 8:30 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-17-2019 9:59 PM Theodoric has replied
 Message 131 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-18-2019 9:25 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7416
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 116 of 131 (848890)
02-17-2019 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by LamarkNewAge
02-17-2019 9:59 PM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
Well as you refuse to actually discuss what I post and again resort to making things personal I am finished. I tried once more to have a rational informative discussion with you, but seemingly you are incapable of that. Continue your factless screeds. I am done.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-17-2019 9:59 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-17-2019 10:56 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7416
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 129 of 131 (848924)
02-18-2019 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Phat
02-18-2019 1:37 PM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
Mormonism and Islam caught on while their founders were still alive. Why does catching on imply that Jesus was a historical figure? Christianity "caught on" over 100 years after this character supposedly was executed. Seems to be a problem there.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 1:37 PM Phat has not replied

  
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