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Author Topic:   Why It Is Right To Do Good To Others
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 283 of 304 (848820)
02-15-2019 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by AZPaul3
02-15-2019 9:12 PM


Re: Goodness
AZPaul3 writes:
Ohh, ohh, me!, me!. I know!
The first one!
Do I get a cookie?
Sorry, no cookie. Sheesh - and you had a 50 50 chance and blew it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by AZPaul3, posted 02-15-2019 9:12 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 284 of 304 (848821)
02-15-2019 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by ringo
02-15-2019 8:31 PM


Re: Goodness
ringo writes:
You're misunderstanding survival of the fittest. The "fittest" isn't the strongest or the meanest individual. Being good is part of what makes us fit for survival as a species.
Certainly co-operation can be shown to help survival but then the question is survival of what or who. In an earlier thread someone suggested that it was about the survival of the gene pool. For those of us in the west our gene pool is pretty diverse and frankly we would be a lot better if we could just get rid of all those Africans with their different gene pools and have those resources for ourselves. Instead, whe do what we should and try and help those in trouble over there.
I guess what I'm asking is how broad is your idea of what constitutes our species?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by ringo, posted 02-15-2019 8:31 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by ringo, posted 02-15-2019 9:33 PM GDR has replied
 Message 289 by Tangle, posted 02-16-2019 11:04 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 286 of 304 (848823)
02-15-2019 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by ringo
02-15-2019 9:33 PM


Re: Goodness
ringo writes:
You're treading on dangerous ground there, Mr. Grand Dragon. "Our species" includes all of us. Diversity is strength.
I agree. IMHO one way of boiling down the Christian message is that we are just one tribe. Walls and Brexit are steps backwards. However, from a mindless evolutionary POV I'm not so sure. From a mindless evolutionary POV, it seems to a non-expert like me that genocide in many cases would be the path that would be followed.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by ringo, posted 02-15-2019 9:33 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by ringo, posted 02-16-2019 10:46 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 294 of 304 (848885)
02-17-2019 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Tangle
02-16-2019 11:04 AM


Re: Goodness
Tangle writes:
And that's exactly what happens - we discriminate, we can't help it, it's designed into us.
That's my point. It is designed into us. That also does not preclude the imagery of Dawkin's memes and there is no science that argues either for or against the idea that we might be influenced that way.
Tangle writes:
It all derives from empathy and that's an evolved feature like everything else.
Certainly it evolved but why? And again, that still does not either argue for or against the idea of the influence of God's still small voice nudging us through our conscience.
The following quote is from the tutorial for doctors that you quoted yourself.
quote:
A cardinal feature of empathy is that it usually helps connect people to others. Because of the evolutionary development of this brain-based capacity, affective empathy, or emotional sharing, most easily occurs among members of the same “tribe”. Individuals tend to have the most empathy for others who look or act like them, for others who have suffered in a similar way, or for those who share a common goal.
We see these biases play out repeatedly in communities, schools, sports teams, and religious communities. The truth of the matter is that empathy is not always an equal opportunity benefactor (15). People are evolutionarily wired to recognize and respond to differences and socially or culturally based perceptions can trigger subconscious fears that threaten emotional homeostasis.
That was the point I made earlier. Many people in our own culture with its Judeo Christian roots are more likely help those from "other" tribes rather than there own because it is felt the need is greater.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Tangle, posted 02-16-2019 11:04 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by Tangle, posted 02-18-2019 3:43 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 300 of 304 (848965)
02-19-2019 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by Stile
02-19-2019 9:32 AM


Re: Goodness
GDR writes:
Where we differ is in the question why is all of that true. Why do we not live by the the law of the survival of the fittest?
Stile writes:
Who says we don't?
Remember, this thread is about Stile's reason for Why It Is Right To Do Good To Others - not the human population.
I speak merely for myself.
Perhaps some will agree - perhaps not.
The point is - I'm certainly not claiming that this reason is something everyone has.
In fact, I'd argue the complete opposite - most people don't take the time to consider such things in such detail. They have to worry about having enough money to feed/support their family.
I think that you are look at it from too narrow a perspective. It doesn’t matter how poor one is or how much they have to struggle to feed/support their family. From a western perspective we can look at it from how we deal with others that we come in contact with. Do we look at every encounter that we have as an opportunity to bring a little joy into someone’s day by making a cheerful comment, or paying them a compliment. It is not all about money or even time for that matter.
GDR writes:
In my view it isn't what we do that is the root of goodness. For me it is all a heart issue.
Stile writes:
I agree the heart is part of it.
But all of it?
If someone never interacted with any other person - never hurt anyone (and never helped, either...)
I would be hard pressed to call them "good."
I would simply call them "a-moral.
I think we would agree that our heart is a metaphor for our mind and or conscious thought. Once again I don’t see it about never hurting or never helping anyone as being the issue and that they are merely symptoms of the issue. It is impossible to live a life where we neither hurt nor help anyone else. It simply boils down to whether or not we have a desire to help others or not or are we solely self serving regardless of its impact on others.
If we look at very young children we can see that they seem to instinctively have a knowledge or sense of fairness. If there are 2 children and 2 treats they know that each should get one of them. However there will still be the desire to have both of them. If there are two treats available and no one is supervising most will likely be content with each getting one, but some children will disregard that sense of fairness and try to get both of them. Hopefully over time the one who takes both of them will be influenced to moderate that selfish desire and seek fairness and some will even be prepared to give up their perceived right and sacrifice what is fairly theirs for the benefit of others.
GDR writes:
If we have hearts that get those warm fuzzies when we are able to bring joy to others, and particularly when we do it at some cost to ourselves, that is fundamental goodness.
Stile writes:
Absolutely.
Of course - this doesn't exist in reality.
"We" don't have such things.
Some people do. Possibly many. But certainly not all. There is a very, very large minority (more than can be ignored by saying "we" all have it) that do not have such fundamental goodness.
Sure. For many it is the lust for money, power, sex or any other self focused desire and they are prepared to satisfy those lusts regardless of how it impacts others. If you want to use local examples there is the relatively recent case in your neck of the woods with a guy who grew up in a wealthy family and killed his own father so that he could inherit the family business sooner rather than later. After that he killed to more people with one of them being done with no other reason that it gave him a thrill to take a life.
I have no doubt that he knew that what he was doing was wrong on both a gut level and a cultural level. He stuffed that down and just didn’t care. Sure, that’s an extreme example. Those that complained about the amber alert are those that just aren’t willing to sacrifice anything of themselves in order to help others. They are the ones who would essentially say that they are good people because they haven’t done things to hurt others.
Why have some chosen the selfish path in their lives and why have you chosen a path that wants to bring joy to other lives and to leave a legacy behind that sees the world a better place for having been born into it?
GDR writes:
Did goodness evolve from mindless processes, chemical or otherwise, or did it evolve through processes and laws that are the result of an external intelligence? It appears we differ on the answer to that.
Stile writes:
Absolutely.
Wanting to "be a good perso n" isn't some mystical strangeness found in all humans.
It's really nothing more than any other preference. Just one that's been selected for as we evolved.
If it wasn't selected for - we would have died out by killing ourselves (we still might, even...)
It's a preference.
It's equally as profound as "Stile likes the colour green."
I just don’t see altruism as being evolved in terms of what we think of when we talk about evolutionary theory. If I were to approach it from a non-theistic point of view a would argue that, (disregarding mental issues), is that it is a result of all the various influences in our lives with societal and parental influences being most prominent. I would even say that it is along the line of Dawkins’ memes. I would argue, as you do, that co-operation and empathy very often is helpful for me and the society around me. The weak point in that argument though is that does not explain why we in the west are prepared to sacrificially help those on the other side of the world who are not of our society or gene pool.
As a theist it would be ridiculous to suggest that society and parents don’t have a massive impact on whether our fundamental self is selfish or unselfish. Of course they do. Our familial or societal memes largely make us what we are. However, it is my belief that there is also that silent meme, that we can metaphorically call the “still small voice of God” that prompts us towards a love that transcends the self and is prepared to love one’s neighbours, (which of course ultimately extend to everyone), sacrificially, or to live a life in which our foundational belief is “The Golden Rule”.
I would also add that when we look at the evolutionary process we all evolved with 5 fingers, ten toes and so on. However, when it comes to our adherence to a moral code, such as in the Golden Rule, we are all over the map. It sure looks to me as if there is more involved than just evolutionary processes.
You ask why you have chosen the path that you have and it is my belief that you have chosen that path because you have responded to all of the above and have had your heart softened to the point that you have been able to set aside selfish desires in order to enhance the lives of others, even at your own expense.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Stile, posted 02-19-2019 9:32 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by Stile, posted 02-20-2019 9:19 AM GDR has not replied

  
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