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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 658 of 1184 (844823)
12-05-2018 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 657 by DrJones*
12-05-2018 4:32 PM


Re: Hey you gun control nuts, deal with this!
DrJones* writes:
Of course for the woman to have armed herself so quickly means the gun wasn't in one safe and the ammo in another. The gun was already loaded and sitting in a nightstand or a bureau drawer or someplace like that,
That's a statement without support.
I read a number of articles, this is from Woman shoots, kills escaped inmate after he kicks down her door where Pickens County Sheriff Rick Clark is quoted saying, The victim was trapped in her home, in her bedroom. [She] was in fear for her life, she used lethal force to protect herself. Do you think it likely that she has lockboxes and keeps them in her bedroom?
We don't know the time between him entering her house to when she realized an intruder was in her house to when he got to her room and she shot him.
Yeah, sure. Our escaped convict, in desperate need of clothes that aren't orange and hoping to find some that fit in a bedroom, smashes down the kitchen door and instantly alerts the residents but inexplicably decides to take his time. He saunters about the kitchen, fries an egg and makes some toast, then relaxes through a delicious breakfast. He then seeks out a weapon, but instead of using all this time to select a serious kitchen knife he takes...a knife sharpener.
Then he goes into the living room, turns on the TV, and watches a Fox & Friends segment, but after a while he decides the Trump representative is never going to get around to revealing any details about the China deal, so he thought maybe it was time to go upstairs and start looking around for some clothes that aren't orange.
Meanwhile, upstairs in her bedroom, the woman has had plenty of time to open her lockboxes (she always brings her lockbox keys upstairs at night - nah, just kidding, she keeps the keys underneath the lockboxes), load the gun, and stand ready in the optimum firing stance.
My guns and ammo are all locked up safely and I can easily get one out and readied within 5 minutes.
I'm glad you're choosing the least unsafe method to keeping guns in the house. How many people have keys or know where the keys are or know the combo or whatever? In other words, how many people can open them? I think many people would underestimate this number, and I hear your average lockbox isn't that hard to defeat. And if it's small and not bolted down then any housebreaker would just take it and open it at his leisure.
How many people know one of your passwords, at home or work, doesn't matter? For anyone where the answer is more than zero then that tells me they're insufficiently security conscious and overly trusting and should not have guns in their house, lockbox or not.
The WP version of the story said "moments" later a 911 call was received but who knows how long a "moment" really is.
A "moment" is a fairly short period of time. A common example is when they ask for a moment of silence, it often ends up being around five seconds. Another common example is, "He thought for a moment before answering."
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : "trustworthy" => "trusting"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 657 by DrJones*, posted 12-05-2018 4:32 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 659 by DrJones*, posted 12-05-2018 8:03 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 660 of 1184 (844826)
12-05-2018 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 659 by DrJones*
12-05-2018 8:03 PM


Re: Hey you gun control nuts, deal with this!
DrJones* writes:
Do you think it likely that she has lockboxes and keeps them in her bedroom?
Why wouldn't she? That's where mine are.
Is it common for gun owners to keep their lockboxes in their bedroom? Seems a funny place to keep lockboxes, but then what do I know, I'm not a gun owner.
But you're missing the point. She just happened to be in the one room in the house where the gun was when the convict broke in. How likely is that? If it had happened some other time during the day (I believe it happened before daybreak) she could as easily have been in the family room watching television.
Do you think it likely she has lockboxes? Given the number of posts I've made to the gun control threads about children finding guns, I have my doubts.
Yeah, sure. Our escaped convict, in desperate need of clothes that aren't orange and hoping to find some that fit in a bedroom, smashes down the kitchen door and instantly alerts the residents but inexplicably decides to take his time. He saunters about the kitchen, fries an egg and makes some toast, then relaxes through a delicious breakfast. He then seeks out a weapon, but instead of using all this time to select a serious kitchen knife he takes...a knife sharpener.
Then he goes into the living room, turns on the TV, and watches a Fox & Friends segment, but after a while he decides the Trump representative is never going to get around to revealing any details about the China deal, so he thought maybe it was time to go upstairs and start looking around for some clothes that aren't orange.
But you don't know that that is not how things went down. We don't know a lot of things about the sequence of events.
Yeah, we pretty much already know it didn't happen that way. According to the Washington Post article, it was a few moments after he broke in and picked up a knife sharpener that she called 911. According to the Internet, the definition of "moment" is "a very brief period of time."
I'm glad you're choosing the least unsafe method for keeping guns in the house.
My ammo is in locked containers. My pistols are trigger locked, in locked cases in my locked safe. Rifles and shotguns are trigger locked in locked safes. I am exceeding the legal storage requirements. How can I be safer, aside from the "don't own guns" dodge?
As I just said, I'm glad you're choosing the least unsafe method to keeping guns in the house. I hope you're telling the truth. Sorry to be skeptical, but you've read ICANT's stuff, and you've read Jar's open carry stuff, and they have me, er, gunshy whenever I see claims about how safe someone says they're being.
How many people have keys or know where the keys are or know the combo or whatever? In other words, how many people can open them?
none
It is really unusual for people to be that careful and secretive and disciplined and close mouthed. I hope it's true, but it seems so similar in nature, if not the details, to ICANT's bragging. Sorry if I've let him poison the waters too much.
How many people know one of your passwords, at home or work, doesn't matter?
nobody knows my personal passwords, I'm sure the IT guys at my office have ways of overriding the passwords related to my work stuff.
You are a very unusual person if you don't share passwords. Almost everyone does this for at least some accounts. For example, do you and your wife both know the password for your joint checking account? Do you use that password anywhere else? Etc...
A "moment" is a fairly short period of time.
indeed but there is no set amount of time for a moment. it could just be flowery language from the writer, we don't know the timeframe of events.
A moment isn't a specific period of time, but it is a *brief* period of time. The articles were pretty clear that the escaped convict broke in, grabbed a knife sharpener, then marched upstairs, probably to find some non-orange clothes in the bedrooms.
Flowery language? Seriously?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 659 by DrJones*, posted 12-05-2018 8:03 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 661 by DrJones*, posted 12-05-2018 9:15 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 662 of 1184 (844844)
12-06-2018 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 661 by DrJones*
12-05-2018 9:15 PM


Re: Hey you gun control nuts, deal with this!
DrJones writes:
Is it common for gun owners to keep their lockboxes in their bedroom?
I haven't done a survey but seriously, what room in your house do you spend the most time?
I work at home, so my bedroom isn't where I spend the most time, but that's beside the main point, and I'd like to stay focused on that. I'm guessing you asked which room I spend the most time in because since the bedroom is where people sleep that's where most people spend the most time, and that's where you'd most likely be if your house is broken into. Just from reading articles about gun shootings, the nightstand seems to be a very common place to keep an unlocked firearm.
...what room are you most aware of the comings and goings?
This seems off-topic, but answering anyway, our kids are grown up now, but even when the house was full of kids I don't think I was ever much aware of where anyone was unless they were in the same room or an adjacent room. I guess if I'd had rooms I didn't want the kids in that I would have put locks on them.
I come from a big family, there were always kids running around the house, but my parents always knew when someone was in their room when they shouldn't be.
This seems off-topic too, but again answering anyway, we only had two kids, and we didn't care if they went in our bedroom.
Do you think it likely she has lockboxes?
maybe she does, maybe she doesn't we can't tell either way.
Which way would you bet? A survey found that 55% of homes with both children and firearms kept the firearms in an unlocked place (Statistics on Guns in the Home & Safe Storage). If 55% of homes with children don't lock up their guns, how many homes without children do you think lock them up? It's gotta be more, right? So again, which way would you bet?
It's premature for you to rail against her for being unsafe when we know only the barest of facts.
Gun people always find reasons why it's premature to reach conclusions or take action. If she had her guns locked up, great, good for her, she was using the least unsafe method to keep guns in her house. It still focuses attention on the fact that far too many people don't store their guns safely, in fact see it as ruining a gun's value for home defense.
Given the number of posts I've made to the gun control threads about children finding guns, I have my doubts.
how many news stories are there about children being unable to get their hands on their parents guns and nothing untowards happens? they don't write stories when nothing happens.
And they don't write stories about all the car accidents that didn't happen, so I guess we shouldn't be concerned about auto safety, either.
Sorry to be skeptical, but you've read ICANT's stuff
yes and i think ICANT is being unsafe and irresponsible.
He has lots of company, and he's only extreme in the way he expresses himself. There's really no difference in actual danger between ICANT, who says outright that a gun is no good for home defense if it's locked up, and someone else who says sheepishly, "Yeah, I suppose I should keep it locked up," but then never does.
you've read Jar's open carry stuff,
I have no problem with legal, safe open carry. And i have no reason to think Jar is being unsafe.
It's an unsecured gun in a public place and represents a hazard.
How many people have keys or know where the keys are or know the combo or whatever? In other words, how many people can open them?
none
It is really unusual for people to be that careful and secretive and disciplined and close mouthed.
I'm a responsible adult.
If you're the standard then there are very few responsible adults out there. Unless you live your life isolated from people, I don't believe you.
You are a very unusual person if you don't share passwords
I've shared my Netflix password, but that's it.
Congratulations on being so incredibly security conscious, but the point isn't how amazing you are but that, keeping in mind the bell shaped curve, the majority of people are just average Joes and shouldn't have guns because they haven't achieved the high degree of safety awareness and practice as you.
. For example, do you and your wife both know the password for your joint checking account?
I'm single and live alone.
You say single and not widowed or divorced, so I assume you've never been married and don't have kids, which makes you nowhere near typical. By age 35 around 80% of people have been married at least once. Around 80% of people have at least one child during their lifetime. I was assuming you were typical and so was asking you rhetorical questions that I thought would make points, but you're not typical, so forget that approach.
The articles were pretty clear that the escaped convict broke in, grabbed a knife sharpener, then marched upstairs, probably to find some non-orange clothes in the bedrooms.
and without knowing how long that actually took it's premature to jump to the conclusion that she wasn't storing her gun in a safe manner.
Ah, yes, it's premature, even though the Washington Post article said it was "moments" (a word whose definition you didn't seem to know), and this article from the azfamily.com says, "An inmate who had escaped minutes earlier from a county jail in South Carolina was shot and killed by a woman after he kicked in her back door, the local sheriff said."
She had little time, and most people who have guns for home defense don't lock them up. Let's make a bet, loser has to post a message from the opposing viewpoint. The odds are against you (my guess would be around 4 to 1), but since you probably don't believe that I'll give no odds.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 661 by DrJones*, posted 12-05-2018 9:15 PM DrJones* has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 663 of 1184 (845685)
12-18-2018 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 661 by DrJones*
12-05-2018 9:15 PM


Re: Hey you gun control nuts, deal with this!
Well, it's been a couple weeks and there hasn't been a single mention in the news about whether the woman kept her gun locked up. That's she's licensed for concealed carry received a great deal of mention, which is apparently required in South Carolina in order to own a handgun (which makes no sense if you keep the gun in your house, but I digress). Her homicide of escaped convict McLaughlin was ruled justified under South Carolina's Protection of Persons and Property Act.
I assume this is the last we'll hear of this, so we'll never find out if she kept her gun locked up.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 661 by DrJones*, posted 12-05-2018 9:15 PM DrJones* has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 664 of 1184 (845720)
12-19-2018 9:09 AM


Nearly 40,000 Killed by Guns in US Last Year
The New York Times yesterday reported that nearly 40,000 people died from guns in the US last year, the highest in 50 years. Naturally other things being equal the raw numbers will increase each year as the population increases, but deaths also rose percentagewise, rising to 12.0 per 100,000 people in 2017 from 11.8 the previous year. It was the third consecutive year that the rate rose. Two-thirds were suicides, which is the case every year, but it is now the 10th leading cause of death.
Significantly, and as is true every year, mass shootings contributed only a small percentage of the total. Gun deaths mostly occur in ones and and twos.
Let us not forget:
quote:
In 1996, under pressure from the N.R.A., Congress stripped the C.D.C. of its budget to study the health effects of shootings and prohibited the agency from advocating or promoting gun control.
--Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 665 of 1184 (846122)
12-29-2018 4:32 PM


New Info on Parkland Mass Shooting
The BBC article Florida school shooting: New video shows 'blunders' reports that arriving deputies at Parkland did not rush toward gunfire as they'd been trained:
quote:
"Since Columbine, officers are taught to rush toward gunshots and neutralize the killer. But the first Broward deputies don't rush in," the Sentinel reports, referring to the 1999 Colorado school shooting that left 13 people and two perpetrators dead.
The newspaper uses diagrams and body-cam footage to show the police delays outside the building.
Question for all you law enforcement people who are against improved gun control and against the banning of assault weapons: If you're afraid to rush toward gunfire (a very sensible reaction in my opinion), then why aren't you in favor of reducing the number of guns in our midst?
It's one thing to make brave gun talk from the safety of a training program or a shooting range, but when the time comes how many of you will actually rush toward gunfire? I'm sure many of you have wives and children at home, and what would it do to them were you to die? Did it never occur to you that you might think about that as you ponder whether to rush forward? Did you never think that when you experienced the reality that it might be far different than the training, and that losing your life would be a very real possibility? Will it ever become obvious to you that more guns and more deadly guns just make your jobs more difficult and dangerous?
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 666 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-29-2018 7:58 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 667 of 1184 (846136)
12-30-2018 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 666 by Hyroglyphx
12-29-2018 7:58 PM


Re: New Info on Parkland Mass Shooting
Hyroglyphx writes:
The officers at Parkland sounded undertrained in my opinion.
This parallels arguments in the religious threads: They weren't good Christians.
Plus, standard practice has changed over the years.
And gun control hasn't changed in any meaningful way. And the gun death rate has climbed. Until the gun nuts acknowledge that guns are the problem and not training or criminals or not enough guns or whatever else cockamamie excuse they come up with, America will continue to be the leader of western civilization in gun deaths.
1. Stop the Killing: go in immediately to prevent more people from being executed. As we see with mass shootings, the shooters often are motivated by as killing as many people as humanly possible in as little time as humanly possible. There is no longer room or time for containment.
I've got a better idea to stop the killing: take away the guns.
2. Stop the Dying: As long as there is not an active threat immediately in front of you, triage those patients and get them to safety. You cordon off a safe zone to triage the wounded.
I've got a better idea that removes the need for triage: take away the guns.
I can't speak for other departments but I've yet to see anyone exhibit traits of unreasonable cowardice. Whenever a gun call comes out, usually multiple people assign to those calls and race to the scene.
The Broward county deputies did exactly that: when notified of the ongoing Parkland shooting they raced to the scene. Where they milled about outside doing nothing.
I think most departments probably do a good job of weeding out people that just don't have right temperament to be able to reliably respond to those kinds of calls.
You're living in fairytale land. There is no way to identify heroes and cowards in advance.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 666 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-29-2018 7:58 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 668 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-31-2018 11:35 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 669 of 1184 (846241)
01-01-2019 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 668 by Hyroglyphx
12-31-2018 11:35 PM


Re: New Info on Parkland Mass Shooting
Hyroglyphx writes:
And gun control hasn't changed in any meaningful way. And the gun death rate has climbed. Until the gun nuts acknowledge that guns are the problem and not training or criminals or not enough guns or whatever else cockamamie excuse they come up with, America will continue to be the leader of western civilization in gun deaths.
Go to Syria or Mexico, which outlaws private ownership of firearms and then tell me how outlawing firearms makes any meaningful change.
Boy, way to be wrong two different ways. Syria and Mexico are not countries of western civilization (measured economically, of course). And both Syria and Mexico permit gun ownership. Remove the incorrect parts and you said nothing.
The problem has always been why people feel compelled to kill in the first place, not the chosen instrument.
Yes, we know this is your fantasy.
I've got a better idea to stop the killing: take away the guns.
Tell me how you'd plan to go about doing that. There's more guns than there are people in the US and half of the citizens won't go quietly. So tell me how that works in actuality before offering me pie in the sky fantasies.
So your argument isn't that guns aren't responsible but that there's no practical solution. Yet somehow other countries have managed to implement strong gun ownership laws, so it can't be as impossible as you say.
The Broward county deputies did exactly that: when notified of the ongoing Parkland shooting they raced to the scene. Where they milled about outside doing nothing.
Okay, how would Percy and his limitless supply of testosterone-laden balls handle such a situation?
What is wrong with you? Is it that having no effective response to what I actually said you have to respond as if I've said things I haven't? It was you that said this in Message 666:
Hyroglyphx in Message 666 writes:
The new standard is prioritized by:
1. Stop the Killing: go in immediately to prevent more people from being executed.
I opposed what you said, arguing that rational people with families and loved ones and love of life would be highly motivated to not rush toward gunfire, and the Broward County deputies followed their feelings instead of your insipid guidelines and did not rush toward death, not to mention toward a situation where they have only one valid target (who won't necessarily be easy to identify because of the possibility of "a good guy with a gun") while the perpetrator has everyone as a valid target. I applaud their decision. The situation was already placed beyond their control by the insipid gun laws that make it possible for an individual to kill many people in a very short period of time.
You're living in fairytale land. There is no way to identify heroes and cowards in advance.
Oh, so, is the police force filled with cowards or filled with hotheads, cuz you seem to change depending on which way the wind blows?
You keep saying this though I have told you again and again that I don't believe the problem of police attacks on the very people they're empowered to protect is because of bad apples. I believe the police population reflects the same qualities as the general population, and that they make mistakes of action and judgment, just like everyone else. But the problem is exacerbated because they have guns.
If you can only rebut by making stuff up then why rebut at all? Wouldn't it be better to wait until you can think of stuff that is actually true?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 668 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-31-2018 11:35 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 670 by NosyNed, posted 01-01-2019 11:24 AM Percy has replied
 Message 673 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-06-2019 11:14 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 671 of 1184 (846268)
01-02-2019 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 670 by NosyNed
01-01-2019 11:24 AM


Re: How Do you Get from Here to There?
NosyNed writes:
But maybe Hyro has a point: How do you get from where the US is with people like Hyro and ICANT in it to where we are in Canada.
As long as the Supreme Court decision stands that decided that the militia so prominently mentioned in the 2nd amendment has no bearing on the right to keep and bear arms, people like Jar and ICANT and Hyro will continue to feel empowered to ignore the consequences of widespread gun ownership or blame them on other factors. This does make implementation of effective gun control a tough row to hoe. I don't know how we get from where we are to where we have to be.
Your political system is on the edge of breakdown...
I was saying to my wife last night, "Hitler is often mentioned when speaking about Trump, but the comparison is usually dismissed as overreaching. I don't know that that's true. Hitler came to power with a minority of the vote, just like Trump. Hitler used his party's brownshirts to create enough political chaos and uncertainty in Germany so that governments kept falling, and aided by his nationalist rhetoric his party eventually became the largest block in the Reichstag (but not a majority). Hitler was charged by President Hindenberg to form a government with himself as Chancellor, which he did. Hitler then was able to use a crisis (the burning of the Reichstag, which did not burn down, though the fire did cause serious damage) to declare a national emergency during which he was able to get the legislature and president to grant him what amounted to dictatorial powers. Trump has no brownshirts, but he does have the ability to create chaos and turmoil. He only needs a crisis to follow the same path as Hitler."
My wife responded, "Please stop talking."
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 670 by NosyNed, posted 01-01-2019 11:24 AM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 672 by Diomedes, posted 01-02-2019 1:54 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 674 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-06-2019 11:38 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 675 of 1184 (846467)
01-07-2019 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 673 by Hyroglyphx
01-06-2019 11:14 PM


Re: New Info on Parkland Mass Shooting
Hyroglyphx writes:
Boy, way to be wrong two different ways. Syria and Mexico are not countries of western civilization (measured economically, of course). And both Syria and Mexico permit gun ownership. Remove the incorrect parts and you said nothing.
First of all, Mexico is a part of western civilization,...
Way to be wrong again. The idea is to compare likes to likes, and Mexico and Syria are not like us and Western Europe and Australia and so forth, too poor in one case, too war-torn in another. See List of Western countries to see which countries are economically western. Mexico and Syria are not among them. Syria isn't even a country of western civilization no matter how you measure it, culturally, politically or economically. Just how wrong you want to be is up to you, but it might work better if you stopped writing off the top of your head.
By the way, Mexico has a lower gun death rate than the United States, so you were crazy to even introduce Mexico as an example since the actual figures argue against your position.
Concerning gun death figures for Syria, I only did a cursory search and couldn't find any, probably because of the war, but any figures from a region where civil order has broken down wouldn't tell us anything meaningful about the effect of their gun laws.
...but that's a total non-sequitur either way. What does western civilization have to with your argument? Your argument hinges on banning guns in order to curb violence.
And you, my friend, are very confused. You should read the context I provided. I quoted what I said when you so insanely responded that Mexico and Syria were countries of western civilization, and I wasn't talking about banning guns in what you were replying to. What I said was that America will continue to be the leader of western civilization in gun deaths as long as gun nuts continue to stand in the way of effective gun law reform.
You seem to believe there is a direct correlation.
Of course there's a correlation between number of guns and gun deaths. Here's a scatter plot of gun death rate versus gun ownership rate by country, The higher the gun ownership rate the higher the gun death rate.
And here's a plot of the same data, but by American states. Again, the higher the gun ownership rate the higher the gun death rate.
The correlation doesn't get any more obvious than that.
Common sense and statistics prove otherwise.
You obviously have neither common sense nor statistics on your side. Look, I get it, you like guns, and having not studied the issue you just assume that the facts of the world back you up without actually knowing what those facts are.
Let me know how that's working out for the citizens of Syria and Mexico,...
How many times do you want to be wrong about this? Economically Mexico is not a country of western civilization, it's gun statistics argue against your point anyway, and Syria is not a country of western civilization no matter how you cut it.
Between that and some European countries with unrestrictive gun laws (Switzerland comes to mind) their incidences of murder, let alone murder by gun, are very low. So obviously there is something else at play that you are conveniently glossing over.
Look once more at the scatter plot of countries. You called attention to Switzerland's unrestrictive gun laws, and unsurprisingly Switzerland comes closest to the United States. How about that!
The problem has always been why people feel compelled to kill in the first place, not the chosen instrument.
Yes, we know this is your fantasy.
What does that even mean?
It means that it is a fantasy that America has more gun deaths because America is a more murderous people. American has more gun deaths because too many people have guns who should not.
So your argument isn't that guns aren't responsible but that there's no practical solution. Yet somehow other countries have managed to implement strong gun ownership laws, so it can't be as impossible as you say.
When you compare apples to apples and not apples to Chevrolet's. America is so inundated by a gun culture.
Yes, of course this is true. We all understand that. The gun nut culture is why our gun death rate is highest among the countries of western civilization.
Secondly, what kind of people tend to be in law enforcement... the people who fanatically hate guns or have an appreciation for them?
You're the law enforcement guy, so why don't you, for a change, bring some facts into the discussion and tell us what percentage of people in law enforcement advocate more guns among the public. You don't actually have to look anything up, you could just think about this for a minute. Ask yourself why cities like New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Baltimore, etc., have periodic gun buyback programs? Obviously someone in their respective police forces believes that reducing the number of guns among the public is a good idea. Actual studies are inconclusive about whether the programs are effective.
Do you honestly believe someone swiping a pen tomorrow is going to disarm the majority of America? Ban gun ownership and watch the homicide by gun rate skyrocket to unprecedented levels within the hour of its legislative passing. Therein lies the cruel irony of it all.
I suggest you employ your scaremongering on people dumb enough to believe it. Better yet, drop the scaremongering and bring some facts to the table.
I opposed what you said, arguing that rational people with families and loved ones and love of life would be highly motivated to not rush toward gunfire, and the Broward County deputies followed their feelings instead of your insipid guidelines and did not rush toward death, not to mention toward a situation where they have only one valid target (who won't necessarily be easy to identify because of the possibility of "a good guy with a gun") while the perpetrator has everyone as a valid target. I applaud their decision. The situation was already placed beyond their control by the insipid gun laws that make it possible for an individual to kill many people in a very short period of time.
All I did was explain that there has been a recent shift in tactical response concerning active shooter situations. My reason for mentioning it is that there may have been different training protocols to explain why one department set up containment while another rushed in. That was my only point.
That wasn't your only point. Why don't you go back and actually read what you wrote (Message 666) before making false claims about it. For one you called the Broward County deputies undertrained, which is both true and unfair. The vast majority of police and deputies across the country are woefully undertrained, undermanned and underarmed when it comes to dealing with situations like Parkland, Sandy Hook, the Pulse nightclub, etc. Maintaining the necessary high level of training and readiness across well over a million officers scattered across jurisdictions all over the country isn't possible or affordable.
For another you confused two different types of situations, a hostage situation, which would call for one set of tactics, and a shooter firing into a crowd in a nightclub, classroom, or school hallways, which would call for a different set of tactics.
You keep saying this though I have told you again and again that I don't believe the problem of police attacks on the very people they're empowered to protect is because of bad apples. I believe the police population reflects the same qualities as the general population, and that they make mistakes of action and judgment, just like everyone else. But the problem is exacerbated because they have guns.
And you've also explicitly stated in previous conversations that you believe SWAT teams should be armed with guns to handle scenarios exactly like the ones you're describing. So, again, which is it?
What part of the English language don't you understand? As I've said a number of times, the general police population is not competent for handling situations involving guns. They prove their unworthiness to be carrying guns everyday (see the Police Shootings thread). Only special units should be armed.
If you can only rebut by making stuff up then why rebut at all? Wouldn't it be better to wait until you can think of stuff that is actually true?
No, the issue appears to be that you misunderstood what I was saying and why I was saying it.
I understood you very well. You not only erred in nearly everything you said, you added to it in this post.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 673 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-06-2019 11:14 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 677 by Theodoric, posted 01-07-2019 4:39 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 676 of 1184 (846489)
01-07-2019 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 674 by Hyroglyphx
01-06-2019 11:38 PM


Re: How Do you Get from Here to There?
Hyroglyphx writes:
As long as the Supreme Court decision stands that decided that the militia so prominently mentioned in the 2nd amendment has no bearing on the right to keep and bear arms, people like Jar and ICANT and Hyro will continue to feel empowered to ignore the consequences of widespread gun ownership or blame them on other factors. This does make implementation of effective gun control a tough row to hoe. I don't know how we get from where we are to where we have to be.
Maybe I've never really shared the heart of my contention. It's not that I am incapable of seeing a connection between guns and gun deaths any more or any less than I can see a connection between motor vehicle deaths and motor vehicles. It's not that I'm out to protect the gun. I recognize a gun to be a tool with one true purpose... and that's killing.... and killing, by and large, is ugly... and we tend to abhor ugly things. I get it. That is not lost on me.
I don't believe you. One paragraph of sanity doesn't nullify all your error-filled and callous paragraphs. If this is what you truly believed and understood then you would be working toward agreement on approaches to reducing gun deaths in this country. Instead what you've offered has been excuses for why people should be allowed to wield firearms, misconceived comparisons about utility using examples like knives and cars, scare tactics about how we'll all be at the mercy of criminals and all dead shortly after our guns are taken away, fairy tales about how the mass murders wouldn't have been mass murders if people had just acted correctly or if police had just responded correctly or if police weren't undertrained, or responding by repeatedly mischaracterizing what I actually said, and just getting your facts wrong like about suicides and which countries are western (Syria? Really?).
My problem with your argument, however, is that it is naively simplistic. You are treating the symptom instead of treating the disease. A gun cannot will itself. It requires people, with deliberation or malice aforethought, to commit a murder. You don't want to consider why one nation peacefully can coexist with guns only to be used defensively and why another has murder rates off the charts by using them offensively. The reality is that one culture is sick and the other is not... the gun is an afterthought. But for you, it's the only thought.
And this proves that your first paragraph wasn't sincere, because you're right back to insanity and nonsense like (not in so many words) "Guns don't kill people. People kill people," and "The US is just a murderous country."
War is fought with weaponry... its an ugly reality, but its also the only reason you aren't a German-speaking Nazi right now.
Why are you saying this nonsense? I never said I wanted to take guns away from the military. Are you daft?
The staunch reality is that criminals, by definition, are people who do not obey the law. So when you pass sweeping legislation, who are you really impacting and who are you really empowering? And that's the irony, Percy, that for whatever reason you just refuse to even consider.
There you go again, saying that if they take away our guns we'll all be at the mercy of criminals and crime will run rampant. Scare tactics again. It isn't that I refuse to consider it. It's that I've provided evidence that you're wrong, and you've provided no evidence that you're right. You just keep repeating it as if you think the more times you say something false the less and less false it becomes.
It's not about the gun. It never has been. It's about leveling a playing field marred with people who will, if given the chance, prey on others if something can be gained from it.
It's about the gun. See the scatter plots in my previous post.
War is ugly, but sometimes necessary. Guns are ugly, but sometimes necessary.
There you go replying as if I'd said something I didn't. I never said guns are always unnecessary. I've proposed special armed police units, and said hunting rifles are okay. But because ownership of firearms by the general public causes higher death rates, guns shouldn't be generally available.
The fact is that your first paragraph is a paragon of dishonesty. You don't really see a connection between guns and gun deaths. What you really see is that guns are all that stand between us and the criminal hordes. You're not really balking at defending the gun but are offering one defense of the gun after another. You don't really see a gun as a dangerous instrument but as a guarantor of safety. Everything you claimed wasn't lost on you is absolutely lost on you.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 674 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-06-2019 11:38 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 680 of 1184 (848553)
02-09-2019 9:14 AM


Gun Nuts Incredibly Careless
After all the unbelievable claims we've seen in this thread about how incredibly careful gun owners are with their firearms it is a welcome jolt of reality to see this report from the TSA (Transportation Security Administration) about the number of guns trying to pass through airport security: TSA Year in Review: A Record Setting 2018. This is straight out of the report (bolding and links same as original):
quote:
Thanks to their vigilance and skills, TSA officers intercepted a record number of firearms in 2018.
  • A record setting 4,239 total firearms were discovered in carry-on bags at checkpoints across the country, averaging 81.6 firearms per week. That’s an average of 11.6 firearms per day.
  • 3,656 (86.15 percent) of the total firearms discovered were loaded - another record.
  • 1,432 (33.74 percent) of the total firearms discovered had a round chambered.
  • The most firearms discovered in one month - a record setting 32 - were discovered in August at Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport.
  • Firearms were intercepted at 249 of the 440 federalized airports.
  • That’s more than a 7 percent (282 more) increase in firearm discoveries from 2017’s total of 3,957.

So let's boil this down. You gun nuts out there put guns in your luggage, which is legal, but the firearm must be declared when checking the baggage, it can't be in a carry-on, and it must be in a secure hardsided lockbox ("Locked cases that can be easily opened are not permitted.") . As if it's not bad enough that people tried to take so many firearms through security, 86% of the guns were loaded, and 34% had a round chambered.
Think on this for a moment, you defenders of how highly trained and careful you gun nuts are. Think bell shaped curve, here's an illustration:
At the right end tail of the curve we have the small population of people you're actually describing who keep their firearms and ammunition locked safely and securely away (separately) and regularly engage in practice and training. To the left of this we have a vast population of people with less and less care, respect, practice and training, becoming worse and worse as you move further left. At the far left end of the bell shaped curve we have your yahoos who buy a handgun and ammunition at Walmart, load it up when they get home, and drop it into the drawer of their nightstand.
A couple weeks ago I happened to be in Walmart. I need a new pair of ski goggles, and though I didn't expect to find any I thought I'd walk through the sporting goods section anyway and possibly save myself a trip. Guns were in the last aisle. I could see what you gun nuts find so attractive. All that shiny and precise metal, all that feeling of power, of imagining the feel of the gun in your hand and squeezing off shots while holes appear in targets. It was overpowering, euphoric, intoxicating. I wanted one. Even the pellet guns called out, "Buy me, you'll love me."
I shook it off and continued my shopping. Walmart had no ski goggles.
You gun nuts have a point when you say guns aren't the problem, people are the problem. But look at the vastness of the belly of the bell shaped curve. How are you going to make all those people unload and lock up their guns, treat them with respect, keep up their training and practice? It can't be done. The bell shaped curve is forever - it's never going away.
The car industry, with big pushes from safety groups and from Congress, recognized the bell shaped curve and have been working hard for decades making their cars safer to minimize injury and death when the inevitable accidents happen. Crash avoidance is going to be big.
The gun industry could do the same and make the gun debate moot. How about a gun that sounds an alarm when left unattended and not safely locked up? Whether that's a good idea or not, you gun nuts better start working hard at ideas for true gun safety, because if you don't then we are going to at some point start taking your guns away.
By the way, if you're discovered taking a firearm through airport security without declaring it the firearm will be confiscated, your case will be reported to the local prosecuting attorney, fines currently range from $1,960 to $9,800, and you'll likely never see your firearm again except in court. Bon voyage.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 681 by Coragyps, posted 02-09-2019 12:06 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 682 of 1184 (848830)
02-16-2019 8:16 AM


Are you sane and stable? How do you know?
Let go from Henry Pratt Co. in Aurora, Illinois, Gary Martin returned to the plant with a gun yesterday afternoon and began firing on co-workers. When police arrived he began firing on them, too. In all five employees were killed, six police were injured (five by gunfire), and while details are still sketchy at this time, likely additional employees were injured.
So, you gun nuts out there, feeling sane today? Feeling certain you won't be the next gun nut who goes off on a rampage? Are you having yet another lucky day where you don't get angry or depressed or mentally ill or go postal or just get careless? Do you feel lucky today? Well do you, punk? All the people in the lunchroom are laughing at you, your face burns, your anger rises, and you think of all that marvelous hard, shiny and intoxicating metal that is just waiting for you, telling you to pick it up, slip in the clip, feel the power flow up your arm, and then POW POW POW.
Source: Shooter in deadly Illinois rampage had a gun with a laser sight, witness says
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 683 by marc9000, posted 02-17-2019 5:48 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 685 of 1184 (848899)
02-18-2019 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 683 by marc9000
02-17-2019 5:48 PM


Re: Are you sane and stable? How do you know?
marc9000 writes:
How ya doin. Percy? Your favorite punk here. Yes I feel lucky!
Why do you feel lucky? Do you feel lucky to be so totally uninformed about the gun debate and even math that those numbers didn't look a little funny to you? Do you feel lucky to be so completely clueless as to be unable to assess whether those arguments made any sense? Do you feel lucky to be so lacking in judgment that you couldn't even formulate a response to my actual questions?
Anyway, let's look at your numbers:
quote:
LET'S DO SOME MATH USING CDC NUMBERS:
The numbers are not from the CDC.
quote:
There were 32,000 gun deaths last year.
There were 40,000 gun deaths last year. It's been nearly a decade since the number of gun deaths was as low as 32,000.
quote:
60% are suicide.
3% are accidents.
4% are justified.
33% are homicides.
80% of homicides are gang related.
80% of homicides are not gang related.
quote:
That leaves 1,712 people in a country with a population of 312 million.
The US population was 312 million in 2011. Way to be current. And where did that figure of 1712 people come from? I can't wait to hear the explanation
quote:
You have a 0.00010256410256% chance of death by firearm.
Let me do a little simple math for you. 1712 people divided by 0.00010256410256% is 1.6692 billion people. The population of the US isn't anywhere close to a billion, let along 1.6692 billion. Since doing the math yields an absurdly large population for the US, the percentage is clearly wrong, plus how it was calculated is not described.
If you are not part of a gang, don't commit crime or plan on committing suicide, you have a 0.000008564102564% chance of death by firearm.
Please tell us how they calculated the 0.000008564102564% figure. Garbage-in/garbage-out, Mike, and there's a lot of garbage in your figures.
quote:
GUNS ARE NOT A PROBLEM - THE MEDIA AND YOUR ELECTED OFFICIALS ARE LYING TO YOU AMERICA.
Obviously your main problem is basic math and gullibility.
The question is, why are they lying? I have a theory about that. Would you like to hear it?
Before telling us your theory perhaps you could first post a message with no incorrect figures or glaring math errors.
For anyone interested, Mike's figures come from this webpage.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 683 by marc9000, posted 02-17-2019 5:48 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 686 by Theodoric, posted 02-18-2019 8:38 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 687 by caffeine, posted 02-18-2019 10:27 AM Percy has replied
 Message 693 by marc9000, posted 02-18-2019 8:26 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 690 of 1184 (848909)
02-18-2019 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 687 by caffeine
02-18-2019 10:27 AM


Re: Are you sane and stable? How do you know?
caffeine writes:
1712/0.00010256410256 is about 16.7 million. You've accidentally added a few zeroes somehow.
1712/0.00010256410256% (or 1712/0.0000010256410256) is about 1.67 billion. If we assume "%" was a typo then that yields your figure of 16.7 million, which is still not the population of the country, so whether the "%" was a typo or not the figure is still wrong.
The 1712 figure appears to have been pulled out of thin air.
The column of percentages adds to 100% (the bottom figure of "80% of homicides are gang related" is just additional (and incorrect) information and not part of the column of percentages), and once you reach 100% there is nothing left over, so it is incorrect to say, "That leaves 1,712 people in a country with a population of 312 million." 0% of anything is 0.
32,000 is 0.00010256410256% of 312 million.
320 is 0.00010256410256% of 312 million, but again, if we assume "%" was a typo then you are correct on the math, but 32,000 is the total firearm deaths in 2011, not what remains "if you are not part of a gang, don't commit crime or plan on committing suicide." If we take the percentages provided for suicide, accidents, etc. and calculate that figure then it would be 13.6% of all firearm deaths, or 4352. But of course we already know just from being sane, rational and informed people that 80% of homicides are not gang related, not even close, so even once the 4352 figure is properly calculated it is still nonsense.
Marc9000 pulled a random page of nonsense off the Internet and presented it unattributed. We've already given far too much attention to it. If Marc9000 can muster up the savvy to provide accurate and meaningful numbers then we can discuss them, but they're beside the point. Even if his post wasn't full of errors, it still didn't answer any of the questions asked in the message he replied to, which were about gun owners guaranteeing that they can maintain sanity and equilibrium and are not a menace to society.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 687 by caffeine, posted 02-18-2019 10:27 AM caffeine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 691 by Percy, posted 02-18-2019 3:42 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 699 by caffeine, posted 02-19-2019 2:39 PM Percy has replied

  
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