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Author Topic:   Police Shootings
Percy
Member
Posts: 18307
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 166 of 211 (844485)
11-30-2018 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Phat
11-30-2018 11:47 AM


Re: Police Murder Fleeing Man at Alabama Mall
Phat writes:

The guns have to be taken off the streets, taken away altogether, even from police with the exception of specially trained forces.
How would we make sure there was no black market or that some were hiding weapons? In other words, how specifically could all guns be accounted for should we vote to take them all away?

Yeah, you're right, I see your point. And despite years of car registrations, driver licensing and training, and increasingly strict safety requirements we still have car thefts, accidents and deaths, so I guess we don't need those, either.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Phat, posted 11-30-2018 11:47 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Percy, posted 02-06-2019 7:25 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18307
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.5


(2)
Message 167 of 211 (847797)
01-27-2019 6:55 AM


A Police Shooting of a Special Kind
St. Louis Metropolitan Police officer Katlyn Alix was shot and killed early Thursday morning. Naturally the homicide of a police officer, one of those dedicated to preserving and protecting public order, is a tragic event, and the perpetrator must be arrested and prosecuted.

Fortunately the perpetrator has already been arrested. He is Nathaniel Hendren. What kind of scoundrel is Nathaniel Hendren? He's one of St. Louis's finest, another member of the St. Louis Metropolitan Police. Nathaniel and Katlyn were playing Russian Roulette.

Rank and file police should not have guns.

I know the objection will be that they were just a couple of bad apples who should never have been on the police force, or that there was inadequate training, or some other excuse, but police across the US, numbering approximately one million, are just a representative subset of the American people. If you seek the elite of the elite then you'll find a Navy SEAL or an Army Ranger or a Green Beret. If you seek a police officer then you'll find an underpaid public servant and an average Joe.

In quality the US police population is a bell shaped curve, just like all large populations. At the opposite tails of the curve you have the very best and the very worst. Statistics and human nature tell us that it isn't possible to chop off that lower tail.

Rank and file police should not have guns.

Source (among many): https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/policewoman-shot-dead-by-fellow-officer-during-russian-roulette-game-police

--Percy


    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18307
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 168 of 211 (848470)
02-06-2019 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Percy
11-30-2018 9:09 PM


Re: Police Murder Fleeing Man at Alabama Mall
There's more on the police mall murder on November 24th of last year: Alabama Police Officer Will Not Be Charged In Fatal Shooting Of Mistaken Gunman. I'll let beginning of the article tell the story:

quote:
An Alabama police officer who shot and killed a man he mistook for the gunman in a mall shooting will not be charged with a crime, the state's attorney general announced Tuesday.

Emantic "EJ" Bradford Jr., 21, was killed by an officer whose name has not been released and is only identified as "Officer 1" on Thanksgiving night inside the Riverchase Galleria in Hoover, Ala. The officer, who was responding to an earlier shooting at the mall, mistook Bradford for the gunman.

Minutes before, another man, Erron Brown, shot and wounded 18-year-old Brian Wilson twice.

Alabama Attorney General Steve Marshall released a 26-page report concluding that the officer was "justified and not criminal" in fatally shooting Bradford "who was running toward the initial shooter and victim with a firearm visibly in hand."

The report says "Officer 1's mistaken belief does not render his actions unreasonable."

"A reasonable person could have assumed that the only person with a gun who was running toward the victim of a shooting that occurred just three seconds earlier fired the shots," the report concludes.


Oh, what a surprise, a state conducted investigation (that had to rely upon police resources) of a police murder exonerates the police.

Bradford was an Army veteran with a license to carry and a great deal of firearm training. He was trying to render assistance. Here is a YouTube video of his murder. It is labeled graphic, so you have to be logged into a Google account to view it. There are two side by side videos from surveillance cameras that have been synchronized:

The left video was taken from within what might be a shoe store that looks out on the mall walkways. Bradford can be seen in the upper left at about 7 seconds wearing light pants and a dark shirt. He at first backs up to the right away from the shots, then pulls his gun and begins running to the left toward the shots. The police are right behind him and shoot him immediately.

The right video was taken from a position further to the left of the left video. The front of the shoe store from the left video is in the upper right. It is very difficult to make much out other than that someone falls down and is then is approached by two people who are the policemen. I believe this is the victim of the original shooting.

But this page has higher quality video from the same cameras: Surveillance Video of Shooting at the Riverchase Galleria mall. It appears that the right video captures the victim being shot, and that in the left video the victim is just out of view to the left. In the right video Bradford can barely be made out being shot and falling - what the blur means is only clear from viewing the left video.

So come on all you carry people out there, open or otherwise, why the silence? Explain to me how wonderfully safe carrying a weapon makes us all. Seems to me like pulling a weapon makes you a target for anyone else with a weapon looking for a perpetrator, and the more we arm the American public the more likely it is that someone else in the crowd will have a gun to pull out and shoot you. And if you don't get shot but instead murder an innocent person who just like yourself was just trying to help, maybe the police will exonerate you, too.

Obviously people should not be carrying guns, and police are people, too. Only special units should have guns.

The family has hired a lawyer and it's a pretty safe bet that within a year or so Hoover, Alabama, will be paying out millions.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Percy, posted 11-30-2018 9:09 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Coragyps, posted 02-06-2019 12:06 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5377
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 169 of 211 (848478)
02-06-2019 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Percy
02-06-2019 7:25 AM


Re: Police Murder Fleeing Man at Alabama Mall
And Mr. Bradford will still be dead.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Percy, posted 02-06-2019 7:25 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18307
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 170 of 211 (848693)
02-13-2019 8:09 PM


Yet Again
Six police officers in Vallejo, California, shot and killed 20-year old black man Willie McCoy who was asleep in his locked vehicle with a handgun in his lap. The official police account is that their attempts to waken him were unsuccessful, then he suddenly woke up, was commanded by police to keep his hands visible, he quickly reached downward for his gun, and fearing for their safety all six officers fired their weapons. They attempted medical assistance but McCoy died at the scene. The gun was stolen.

First let's assume the police account is accurate. What level of incompetency is required to shoot an armed sleeping man as he wakes up? Where do six police officers stand to fire at a single individual while not placing any other officer in the line of fire, or innocent civilians? All six fired? Really?

Now let's assume the police account is not accurate. What actually happened can't be known unless there were body cams or surveillance video or the police start telling the truth. I won't speculate.

All you police defenders can start explaining why the killing of Willie McCoy was a good kill.

The police will be investigated and found not at fault. Oh what a surprise.

In a year or two a jury will award Willie McCoy's family a million or two.

Source: Six California officers shot man as he woke in his car

--Percy


    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18307
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 171 of 211 (848697)
02-13-2019 8:50 PM


And Again!
Gee, a bounty today!

Yesterday a masked man with a gun held up a T-Mobile store in Queens, New York, and was holding two employees in a back room. Police officers arrived, several ran inside, more officers arrived, the masked man advanced on the officers in the store, and then the police officers unleashed a hail of gunfire. Two officers in the store were hit and one died of his injuries. The holdup man's gun was fake. An investigation has begun.

Rank and file police officers should not have guns.

Source: ‘Friendly Fire’ Killing of Detective: 42 Shots, 7 Officers, 11 Seconds

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Percy, posted 02-14-2019 9:18 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18307
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 172 of 211 (848704)
02-14-2019 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Percy
02-13-2019 8:50 PM


Re: And Again!
It's the gift that just keeps on giving! The New York Police Department has already figured out who murdered the detective who died in the Tuesday T-Mobie hold up by Christopher Ransom wielding a fake gun. Guess who it was? Christopher Ransom, wielder of the fake gun. He will be charged with murder in the death of Detective Brian Simonsen. Problem solved. Case closed.

Seven police officers, 42 shots in 11 seconds, and the guy with the fake gun is the murderer. We'll never hear how this ends, but I predict Detective Simonsen's family will take an adversarial position and sue the city. More millions going out of public coffers for no good reason.

Again, seven police officers, 42 shots in 11 seconds. I'm not criticizing them. They're just normal people in a high pressure situation demanding instant reaction. But guns are too dangerous to be in the possession of normal people, even those with standard police training, or even military training. It was a hostage situation with no immediate threat of murdering the hostages. They should have stationed themselves at the exits and awaited a negotiation team.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Percy, posted 02-13-2019 8:50 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by DrJones*, posted 02-14-2019 10:24 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1804
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 173 of 211 (848705)
02-14-2019 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Percy
02-14-2019 9:18 AM


Re: And Again!
Christopher Ransom, wielder of the fake gun. He will be charged with murder in the death of Detective Brian Simonsen. Problem solved. Case closed.

A felony murder charge is applied when a death occurs during the commission of another crime. There obviously should be an investigation into the shooting but the charge isn't out of the ordinary.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Percy, posted 02-14-2019 9:18 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-22-2019 4:52 PM DrJones* has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18307
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 174 of 211 (848833)
02-16-2019 9:49 AM


Shot While Filming Outside Jewish Synagogue
YouTube personality Zhoie Perez was shot outside a Jewish Synagogue in Los Angeles while filming, conducting what she calls a "First Amendment audit." The guard warned her away, told her he was going to fire, but she continued filming, so he fired. The guard has been arrested. The article quotes Carlos Miller, who writes about auditors:

quote:
“This is not only an example of the paranoia in this country among cops and security guards when it comes to citizens with cameras but an example of the dangers of placing armed security guards and cops in schools. [Like] many other cops and security guards, this guard lacked basic de-escalation skills, choosing to escalate a nonviolent and lawful interaction with a citizen by firing a deadly weapon.”

This "auditing" thing is new to me, but in my view the more cameras the better. That's the only way we'll get a true picture of law enforcement lying and misbehavior. Obviously guns should also be taken away from undertrained security guards.

Source: What is ‘auditing,’ and why did a YouTuber get shot for doing it?

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-22-2019 8:22 PM Percy has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18307
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 175 of 211 (848933)
02-18-2019 4:26 PM


More Brilliance from the Police
If you were a policeman on the lookout for an armed robbery suspect and you spotted him on the street near a crowded bus stop, what would you do? If your answer is, "Walk up to him and confront him," then DING DING DING you are correct. How else can you insure that five people waiting at the bus stop would get shot, with one in critical condition. It is not known at this time how many of the five were shot by police and how many by the suspect.

When James Blake, a famous retired pro tennis player wearing a suit and tie, was mistaken for a suspect outside a ritzy Manhattan hotel a couple years ago he was tackled to the ground and handcuffed by a plainclothes officer before he knew what hit him. While the officer in this case was disciplined because the suspect they were searching for wasn't thought dangerous, tackling to the ground does seem the right approach for an armed robbery suspect.

This is yet another argument for disarming our rank and file police force. Officers without guns are not going to confront an armed robbery suspect. They're either going to tackle him while he's distracted or call for armed (and better trained) backup.

As I mentioned up top, it isn't known who fired the shots that hit the bystanders, but of course the more who were hit by police bullets the worse it looks for the police.

Source: Five bystanders shot during police shootout in New Orleans

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-22-2019 8:27 PM Percy has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18307
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 176 of 211 (849043)
02-22-2019 9:32 AM


Police Don't Need Guns
From the opening monologue of No Country for Old Men:

quote:
"I was sheriff of this county when I was 25 years old. Hard to believe. Grandfather was a lawman, father was too. Me and him was sheriffs at the same time, him up in Plano and me out here. I think he's pretty proud of that. I know I was. Some of the old time sheriffs never even wore a gun. Lot of folks find that hard to believe. Jim Scarborough'd never carry one - that's the younger Jim. Gaston Borkins wouldn't wear one up in Comanche County. And I always liked to hear about the old-timers. Never missed a chance to do so."

The speaker, Sheriff Ed Tom Bell (played by Tommy Lee Jones), continues on about how times have changed, have become more violent. He ponders how the old-timers would have handled it, would they carry guns today. Don't know, but I'd like to think not. Of course this is a movie drama adaptation from a book of fiction, so who knows if any old time sheriffs really went without guns.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by caffeine, posted 02-22-2019 10:15 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 178 by ringo, posted 02-22-2019 11:01 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1600
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 177 of 211 (849044)
02-22-2019 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Percy
02-22-2019 9:32 AM


Re: Police Don't Need Guns
The speaker, Sheriff Ed Tom Bell (played by Tommy Lee Jones), continues on about how times have changed, have become more violent. He ponders how the old-timers would have handled it, would they carry guns today. Don't know, but I'd like to think not. Of course this is a movie drama adaptation from a book of fiction, so who knows if any old time sheriffs really went without guns.

Jim Scarborough and Gaston Boykin seem to have been real sheriffs in Texas. Regarding Boykin, I did find what purports to be an obituary by an acquaintance saying the claim is accurate and he didn't use a gun.

He talks about the younger Jim Scarborough, but funnily enough there was an even younger one. Three generations of Jim Scarborough were sheriff of Kleberg County. The one referred to in the quote appears to be the middle one, and the claim is reported as true in The Texas Sheriff: Lord of the County Line. The book reports he was not unique:

quote:
Although they might carry backup weapons in their cars, a good many sheriffs chose to go about their daily business unarmed. Some nineteenth-centruy Texas sheriffs had done the same, and this at a time when many men still went openly armed. Sheriff A. J. Spradley of Nacogdoches (...) told his biographer about several Texas sheriffs who went unarmed during long and successful careers.

The book has a few anecdotes about these unarmed sheriffs. Jim Scarborough is quoted as saying "If I ever had a gun, I probably would have killed somebody, a six-shooter never solved a problem". The book says something about Boykin and guns too, but the relevant pages in the Google Books preview are missing.

It also talks about several other trigger-happy sheriffs, though. The very A. J. Spradley mentioned above killed a lot of people, and supposedly had a specially designed holster that allowed him to rotate and fire his pistol without having to draw it.

Edited by caffeine, : No reason given.

Edited by caffeine, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Percy, posted 02-22-2019 9:32 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16217
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 178 of 211 (849046)
02-22-2019 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Percy
02-22-2019 9:32 AM


Re: Police Don't Need Guns
I recently read Dodge City: Wyatt Earp, Bat Masterson, and the Wickedest Town in the American West by Tom Clavin. As Marshall of Dodge City, Wyatt Earp sometimes borrowed a gun when he thought he might need one. When he did carry one, he most often used it to "buffalo" his opponents by whacking them over the head with it.

As for movies, in Angel and the Badman (1947), Harry Carey says, "Only a man that carries a gun ever needs one."


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Percy, posted 02-22-2019 9:32 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5622
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 179 of 211 (849052)
02-22-2019 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by DrJones*
02-14-2019 10:24 AM


Re: And Again!
A felony murder charge is applied when a death occurs during the commission of another crime. There obviously should be an investigation into the shooting but the charge isn't out of the ordinary.

Murder is always a felony. I think what you meant to say is Capital Murder if the murder was committed in the commission of another felony


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by DrJones*, posted 02-14-2019 10:24 AM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by DrJones*, posted 02-22-2019 6:23 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1804
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 180 of 211 (849054)
02-22-2019 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Hyroglyphx
02-22-2019 4:52 PM


Re: And Again!
All my US law education is from the University of Law & Order, that's where I've heard it referred to as felony murder.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-22-2019 4:52 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
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