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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
candle2 writes:
Well, it doesn't exactly say that - but in any case, it misses the point. If Lot knew the people of Sodom well enough to give them advice, why would he offer them women? If he thought the men of Sodom wanted men, per se, why wouldn't he offer himself, for example? The men of Sodom rejected the girls. They wanted the men.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You are the evidence that God is not going to do it. ringo always tells me that God is not going to "do it". But where is the evidence that says that most of the wisdom of the Psalms and Proverbs is outdated for modern day application? As for Psalms and Proverbs, I have never said that there is no wisdom there.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
candle2 writes:
It has nothing to do with philosophy; it's about what the text says. If Lot thought the men of Sodom were homosexuals, why would he offer them women? Lot was an old man. Understand this: the men of Sodom wanted the two men (angels). Philosophy won't change this factt. Are you suggesting that Lot was too senile to know the difference? Yes, the men of Sodom wanted the angels. The reason why they wanted them is not as simplistic as you claim.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
And offering his daughters wouldn't go against his own personal feelings? Lot would never offer himself as that likely went against his own personal feelings.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Hmm.... According to Wikipedia, "Lot's daughters may have feared that they were the last humans on earth and wanted to preserve the human race."
An end-of-the-world Dr. Strangelove kind of thing?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Theodoric writes:
Yeah. The text does seem to suggest homosexual rape but it's funny (not ha-ha) how fundies focus on the homosexual part and not the rape part. In other words people can read anything into the text that they want.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
What else is there? And you trust your senses and logic in making these choices. And it's done pretty well for me so far. I've never been to prison, unlike Kent Hovind, who uses your plan.
Phat writes:
Why don't you market it that way then? What if Hell was marketed as a cool destination, like Bermuda. Would it be possible to be fooled by the brochures?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
When you make up stuff like, "He needed Gods quiet inner voice to complete it," and duct-tape it to what the Bible says, that doesn't make the Bible a "half-truth".
I would fill your heads full of half truths, such as "Noah had to build his own ark". Nevermind that He needed Gods quiet inner voice to complete it. Phat writes:
You're the one who rejects what's in the Bible and makes up all kinds of fiction about this "Satan" character. Why should we "warm up' to a God character that you made up in your head?
None of you guys seem to think too much of the God of the Bible, however....so warming up to Him would require extra measures. " God also attempts to maintain a balanced level of disasters and miracles."
What an incredibly stupid thing to say. Why would you pay any attention to the idiot who said that? And why would you have any use for a God who behaved like that?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Poe's Law:
I was seduced by humor, but it seems to have bounced off you.Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is utterly impossible to create a parody of extreme views in such a way that someone won't mistake it for the genuine article. It was "humor" with an agenda - much like the "joke" about atheists going out and raping, murdering, etc. because there is no God.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
And yet you have the gall to complain when I suggest that the stories in the book are made up.
I suppose one major way in which we differ is that I have a preconceived notion of this larger than life character which differs substanteouly from what plain reading might suggest. Phat writes:
That's pretty arrogant, isn't it? Thinking you know better than the people who wrote the books and the people who chose the books for canon? In essence, my argument is why not get to know God as we understand Him and not simply as the book coldly portrays Him.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
candle2 writes:
Yes, God has chosen you and your congregation and He's built a lake of fire big enough for the rest of us. Or maybe it's Faith and her congregation who are the Real Chosen People™. They might well consign you to the lake of fire. Well, guess what! God has shut the vast majority of them off from Him. Or maybe the Catholics are right. Or the Jews. Or the Muslims. Or the Hindus. Or the Raelians. Or the Scientologists.
candle2 writes:
Can we turn down His invitation to the lake of fire? If not, we don't have free will. For those who want no part of God they can have what they want.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
candle2 writes:
Jesus disagrees with you:
No one burns in hell for eternity.quote: And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You're missing the most important factor:
There is an internet connection to a world of information that the early Church Fathers did not have. We both have essentially the same book. Thus, the only way they could be wiser than I am is:” God made them that way. ”They prayed and fasted more than I do. ” They believed stronger than I do. The photos of sharks eating helicopters are wrong. The conspiracy theories are wrong. The creationist claims are wrong. And the apologist nonsense that you have been spoon-fed is wrong.
Phat writes:
No. The message is universal. Virtually every religion values or pretends to value the message that I value. The hurdle we would have is that you insist on throwing that message away and keeping the envelope.
This is why I present the idea that you and I both could write a book.... Our only hurdle is in agreeing on Who we were writing about. And all we are doing is elaborating on your valued concept of what the message is. Phat writes:
Which is why it is arrogant to think that you, of all the Internet addicts, has The Real Truth™ straight from God's lips to your shell-like ear.
Being in agreement seems to be a major hurdle in religion. Phat writes:
Are you suggesting that fundies aren't quite human? And could a fundie really write a book with a secular humanist and see eye to eye?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
candle2 writes:
YOU have no idea what I believe.
At least I know what I believe. You,on the other hand, have no idea what you believe. candle1 writes:
There is nothing remotely "clear" about your one, two, three resurrections rubbish. Because one is not predestinated doesn't mean that they can't have a r/s with God. It just means that they have not been called to be in the first resurrection. The second resurrection is a resurrection to judgement. It is not a resurrection to sentencing. In the second resurrection the "books of life" are opened. Rev. 20. Read the other two chapters of Revelations. One will clearly see that eternal life is being offered And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Well, I'm older than you... and I don't recall Jesus putting an expiry date on the message.
Did it ever occur to you that an older man with health issues needs a messenger/rescuer/reassurer more than being told that he himself needs to build his own boat and focus on the needs of others? Phat writes:
Consider the widow who helped Elijah. We don't get to decide whether we are the strong or the weak. Contribute what you can and have faith that you'll get what you need.
It is the duty of the strong to help the weak. Phat writes:
The arrogance that I am talking about is the insistance that you know exactly Who the rescuer is. You'll send away the policeman and the boat and the helicopter because you want to dictate how you will be rescued. As for my arrogance, I confess. To me, it is more confidence and hope in a rescuer.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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