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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 799 of 1444 (849022)
02-21-2019 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 797 by candle2
02-21-2019 7:21 AM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
candle2 writes:
The men of Sodom rejected the girls. They wanted the men.
Well, it doesn't exactly say that - but in any case, it misses the point. If Lot knew the people of Sodom well enough to give them advice, why would he offer them women? If he thought the men of Sodom wanted men, per se, why wouldn't he offer himself, for example?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 797 by candle2, posted 02-21-2019 7:21 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 801 by candle2, posted 02-22-2019 6:24 AM ringo has replied
 Message 804 by Phat, posted 02-23-2019 1:14 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 800 of 1444 (849023)
02-21-2019 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 798 by Phat
02-21-2019 9:35 AM


Re: Bronze Age "Goat Herders"
Phat writes:
ringo always tells me that God is not going to "do it".
But where is the evidence that says that most of the wisdom of the Psalms and Proverbs is outdated for modern day application?
You are the evidence that God is not going to do it.
As for Psalms and Proverbs, I have never said that there is no wisdom there.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 798 by Phat, posted 02-21-2019 9:35 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 802 of 1444 (849045)
02-22-2019 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 801 by candle2
02-22-2019 6:24 AM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
candle2 writes:
Lot was an old man. Understand this: the men of Sodom wanted the two men (angels). Philosophy won't change this factt.
It has nothing to do with philosophy; it's about what the text says. If Lot thought the men of Sodom were homosexuals, why would he offer them women?
Are you suggesting that Lot was too senile to know the difference?
Yes, the men of Sodom wanted the angels. The reason why they wanted them is not as simplistic as you claim.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 801 by candle2, posted 02-22-2019 6:24 AM candle2 has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 805 of 1444 (849076)
02-23-2019 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 804 by Phat
02-23-2019 1:14 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Phat writes:
Lot would never offer himself as that likely went against his own personal feelings.
And offering his daughters wouldn't go against his own personal feelings?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 804 by Phat, posted 02-23-2019 1:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 806 by AZPaul3, posted 02-23-2019 5:03 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 807 of 1444 (849091)
02-24-2019 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 806 by AZPaul3
02-23-2019 5:03 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Hmm.... According to Wikipedia, "Lot's daughters may have feared that they were the last humans on earth and wanted to preserve the human race."
An end-of-the-world Dr. Strangelove kind of thing?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 806 by AZPaul3, posted 02-23-2019 5:03 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 808 by Theodoric, posted 02-24-2019 1:34 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 809 of 1444 (849094)
02-24-2019 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 808 by Theodoric
02-24-2019 1:34 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Theodoric writes:
In other words people can read anything into the text that they want.
Yeah. The text does seem to suggest homosexual rape but it's funny (not ha-ha) how fundies focus on the homosexual part and not the rape part.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 808 by Theodoric, posted 02-24-2019 1:34 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 811 of 1444 (849107)
02-24-2019 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 810 by Phat
02-24-2019 4:24 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:
And you trust your senses and logic in making these choices.
What else is there?
And it's done pretty well for me so far. I've never been to prison, unlike Kent Hovind, who uses your plan.
Phat writes:
What if Hell was marketed as a cool destination, like Bermuda. Would it be possible to be fooled by the brochures?
Why don't you market it that way then?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 810 by Phat, posted 02-24-2019 4:24 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 812 by Phat, posted 02-25-2019 9:54 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 813 of 1444 (849119)
02-25-2019 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 812 by Phat
02-25-2019 9:54 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:
I would fill your heads full of half truths, such as "Noah had to build his own ark". Nevermind that He needed Gods quiet inner voice to complete it.
When you make up stuff like, "He needed Gods quiet inner voice to complete it," and duct-tape it to what the Bible says, that doesn't make the Bible a "half-truth".
Phat writes:
None of you guys seem to think too much of the God of the Bible, however....so warming up to Him would require extra measures.
You're the one who rejects what's in the Bible and makes up all kinds of fiction about this "Satan" character. Why should we "warm up' to a God character that you made up in your head?
" God also attempts to maintain a balanced level of disasters and miracles."
What an incredibly stupid thing to say. Why would you pay any attention to the idiot who said that? And why would you have any use for a God who behaved like that?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 812 by Phat, posted 02-25-2019 9:54 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 814 by Phat, posted 02-25-2019 11:19 AM ringo has replied
 Message 817 by Phat, posted 02-27-2019 9:55 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 815 of 1444 (849122)
02-25-2019 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 814 by Phat
02-25-2019 11:19 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:
I was seduced by humor, but it seems to have bounced off you.
Poe's Law:
Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is utterly impossible to create a parody of extreme views in such a way that someone won't mistake it for the genuine article.
It was "humor" with an agenda - much like the "joke" about atheists going out and raping, murdering, etc. because there is no God.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 814 by Phat, posted 02-25-2019 11:19 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 821 of 1444 (849181)
02-27-2019 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 817 by Phat
02-27-2019 9:55 AM


Re: Characters
Phat writes:
I suppose one major way in which we differ is that I have a preconceived notion of this larger than life character which differs substanteouly from what plain reading might suggest.
And yet you have the gall to complain when I suggest that the stories in the book are made up.
Phat writes:
In essence, my argument is why not get to know God as we understand Him and not simply as the book coldly portrays Him.
That's pretty arrogant, isn't it? Thinking you know better than the people who wrote the books and the people who chose the books for canon?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 817 by Phat, posted 02-27-2019 9:55 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 827 by Phat, posted 02-28-2019 5:39 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 822 of 1444 (849182)
02-27-2019 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 816 by candle2
02-27-2019 7:31 AM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
candle2 writes:
Well, guess what! God has shut the vast majority of them off from Him.
Yes, God has chosen you and your congregation and He's built a lake of fire big enough for the rest of us. Or maybe it's Faith and her congregation who are the Real Chosen People™. They might well consign you to the lake of fire.
Or maybe the Catholics are right. Or the Jews. Or the Muslims. Or the Hindus. Or the Raelians. Or the Scientologists.
candle2 writes:
For those who want no part of God they can have what they want.
Can we turn down His invitation to the lake of fire? If not, we don't have free will.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 816 by candle2, posted 02-27-2019 7:31 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 825 by candle2, posted 02-27-2019 5:48 PM ringo has replied
 Message 830 by candle2, posted 02-28-2019 7:52 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 831 of 1444 (849203)
02-28-2019 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 825 by candle2
02-27-2019 5:48 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
candle2 writes:
No one burns in hell for eternity.
Jesus disagrees with you:
quote:
Matthew 25:40-41 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 825 by candle2, posted 02-27-2019 5:48 PM candle2 has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 832 of 1444 (849204)
02-28-2019 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 827 by Phat
02-28-2019 5:39 AM


Re: Characters
Phat writes:
There is an internet connection to a world of information that the early Church Fathers did not have. We both have essentially the same book. Thus, the only way they could be wiser than I am is:
” God made them that way.
”They prayed and fasted more than I do.
” They believed stronger than I do.
You're missing the most important factor:
  • Most of the Internet is wrong.
    The photos of sharks eating helicopters are wrong. The conspiracy theories are wrong. The creationist claims are wrong. And the apologist nonsense that you have been spoon-fed is wrong.
    Phat writes:
    This is why I present the idea that you and I both could write a book.... Our only hurdle is in agreeing on Who we were writing about. And all we are doing is elaborating on your valued concept of what the message is.
    No. The message is universal. Virtually every religion values or pretends to value the message that I value. The hurdle we would have is that you insist on throwing that message away and keeping the envelope.
    Phat writes:
    Being in agreement seems to be a major hurdle in religion.
    Which is why it is arrogant to think that you, of all the Internet addicts, has The Real Truth™ straight from God's lips to your shell-like ear.
    Phat writes:
    And could a fundie really write a book with a secular humanist and see eye to eye?
    Are you suggesting that fundies aren't quite human?

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 827 by Phat, posted 02-28-2019 5:39 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 837 by Phat, posted 02-28-2019 12:36 PM ringo has replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 833 of 1444 (849205)
    02-28-2019 11:03 AM
    Reply to: Message 830 by candle2
    02-28-2019 7:52 AM


    Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
    candle2 writes:
    At least I know what I believe. You,on the other hand, have no idea what you believe.
    YOU have no idea what I believe.
    candle1 writes:
    Because one is not predestinated doesn't mean that they can't have a r/s with God. It just means that they have not been called to be in the first resurrection.
    The second resurrection is a resurrection to judgement. It is not a resurrection to sentencing.
    In the second resurrection the "books of life" are opened. Rev. 20.
    Read the other two chapters of Revelations. One will clearly see that eternal life is being offered
    There is nothing remotely "clear" about your one, two, three resurrections rubbish.

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 830 by candle2, posted 02-28-2019 7:52 AM candle2 has not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 838 of 1444 (849217)
    02-28-2019 12:50 PM
    Reply to: Message 837 by Phat
    02-28-2019 12:36 PM


    Re: Characters
    Phat writes:
    Did it ever occur to you that an older man with health issues needs a messenger/rescuer/reassurer more than being told that he himself needs to build his own boat and focus on the needs of others?
    Well, I'm older than you... and I don't recall Jesus putting an expiry date on the message.
    Phat writes:
    It is the duty of the strong to help the weak.
    Consider the widow who helped Elijah. We don't get to decide whether we are the strong or the weak. Contribute what you can and have faith that you'll get what you need.
    Phat writes:
    As for my arrogance, I confess. To me, it is more confidence and hope in a rescuer.
    The arrogance that I am talking about is the insistance that you know exactly Who the rescuer is. You'll send away the policeman and the boat and the helicopter because you want to dictate how you will be rescued.

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 837 by Phat, posted 02-28-2019 12:36 PM Phat has not replied

      
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