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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 804 of 1444 (849071)
02-23-2019 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 799 by ringo
02-21-2019 10:44 AM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Lot would never offer himself as that likely went against his own personal feelings. Granted, I see evidence on the internet of Christians acting like jerks. To wit:
It seems that many Christians are insecure of their own beliefs and feel a need to bully out competing views. I myself would likely be accused of compromising my own faith in pointing this out---but I need to be honest.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 799 by ringo, posted 02-21-2019 10:44 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 805 by ringo, posted 02-23-2019 3:50 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 810 of 1444 (849104)
02-24-2019 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 646 by ringo
01-09-2019 5:03 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
The fictional character "Satan" represents our own free will. What "Satan" wants IS what we want. Every time we're tempted to do something that we "shouldn't", we're wanting to be independent of God.
And you trust your senses and logic in making these choices.
ringo writes:
...I have never chosen to go to Hell and I never will.
What if Hell was marketed as a cool destination, like Bermuda. Would it be possible to be fooled by the brochures?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 646 by ringo, posted 01-09-2019 5:03 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 811 by ringo, posted 02-24-2019 4:39 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 812 of 1444 (849117)
02-25-2019 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 811 by ringo
02-24-2019 4:39 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
phat writes:
What if Hell was marketed as a cool destination, like Bermuda. Would it be possible to be fooled by the brochures?
ringo writes:
Why don't you market it that way then?
Well for one thing, I'm not interested in drawing tenants, but if I were Satan, and knowing full well the peculiarities of todays world, I would make hell look like church for the believers...but for you science types, I would first off make sure not to appear religious at all. I would fill your heads full of half truths, such as "Noah had to build his own ark". Nevermind that He needed Gods quiet inner voice to complete it. I would, in fact, attempt to persuade people that God was a myth and so was Jesus. It would be even better if they thought I was a myth, for they wouldnt see the blindsided punch coming. I would trick them into holding fiercely on to their freedom from religion, unless they were believers. In essence I would use religion as a double edged sword...ridiculed in front of the unbelievers, deified in front of the believers.
I would throw in all of the pleasing vices that men enjoy.
I suppose that were i satan, my goal would be to convince everyone to simply commune with each other in a humanist socialist utopia and attempt to make a better human race for eternity...no God required.
Then again, we could flip this tale on its head and say that perhaps thats what God is trying to do....eliminate religion, unify humanity, and become a socialist brotherhood. None of you guys seem to think too much of the God of the Bible, however....so warming up to Him would require extra measures.
quote:
One of the marks of the truly religious God-believer is his or her willingness to speak their mind honestly to God, much as King David did in the Psalms. Well, whether everything in your family is going well, or disaster has struck again, here is a way to send God some feedback. (Delivery instructions not included.)
GOD'S TOTAL QUALITY MANAGEMENT QUESTIONNAIRE
God would like to thank you for your belief and patronage. In order to better serve your needs, He asks that you take a few moments to answer the following questions. Please keep in mind that your responses will be kept completely confidential, and that you need not disclose your name or address unless you prefer a direct response to comments or suggestions.
1. How did you find out about God?
__Newspaper __Other Book __Television __Divine Inspiration __Word of mouth __Near Death Experience __Bible __Torah __Other
2. Are you currently using any other source of inspiration in addition to God? Please check all that apply.
__Tarot __Lottery __Horoscope __Television __Fortune cookies __Ann Landers __Self-help books __Sex __Biorythms __Alcohol or drugs __Insurance policies __Mantras __None __Other: _____________________
3. God employs a limited degree of Divine Intervention to preserve the balanced level of felt presence and blind faith. Which would you prefer (circle one)?
a. More Divine Intervention
b. Less Divine Intervention
c. Current level of Divine Intervention is just right
d. Don't know
4. God also attempts to maintain a balanced level of disasters and miracles. Please rate on a scale of 1-5 the divine handling of the following (1=unsatisfactory, 5=excellent):
a. Disasters (flood, famine, earthquake, war) 1 2 3 4 5
b. Miracles (rescues, spontaneous remission of disease, sports upsets) 1 2 3 4 5
5. Do you have any additional comments or suggestions for improving the quality of God's services? (Attach an additional sheet if necessary):
_________________________________________________________
_________________________________________________________
_________________________________________________________

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 811 by ringo, posted 02-24-2019 4:39 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 813 by ringo, posted 02-25-2019 10:54 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 814 of 1444 (849121)
02-25-2019 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 813 by ringo
02-25-2019 10:54 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
What an incredibly stupid thing to say. Why would you pay any attention to the idiot who said that? And why would you have any use for a God who behaved like that?
Gosh, you are right! I was seduced by humor, but it seems to have bounced off you.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 813 by ringo, posted 02-25-2019 10:54 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 815 by ringo, posted 02-25-2019 11:29 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 817 of 1444 (849170)
02-27-2019 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 813 by ringo
02-25-2019 10:54 AM


Characters
Characters form empathy or indifference. We warm up to heroes and decry villains. You have a valid case about the God of the Bible being at times every bit as villainous as not....I suppose one major way in which we differ is that I have a preconceived notion of this larger than life character which differs substanteouly from what plain reading might suggest.
You're the one who rejects what's in the Bible and makes up all kinds of fiction about this "Satan" character. Why should we "warm up' to a God character that you made up in your head?
I get your point, but the way that you phrase it annoys me. It does cause me to think, however. Songs sung long ago in church come wafting back to me.... Revelation Song - Holy Holy Holy is the Lord God almighty etc....
In fact I can make your argument challenging me as I think of my own argument. In essence, my argument is why not get to know God as we understand Him and not simply as the book coldly portrays Him. The counter-argument would assert that this is part of the problem with modern day Christianity...that they create their own character. You then would (again) point out that all that we can know of the character comes from the text of the book and not from any songwriters imagination. I would become exasperated and give up trying to explain to you that God is larger than the book and that belief is not making Him up so much as it is understanding Who He acually is.
You then would explain to me that the message is what is important.(again)
I would attempt to get you to make up God (hypothetically) rather than simply limiting any possible attributes to the book.
You would conclude the argument by saying "Thanks, but I'd rather not."
Sound close?
One further thought: Many of our arguments here (Free Will vs Omniscience) (Who Made God?) by necessity assume the rhetorical and imaginative. I started this particular argument that we are continuing now by asking how hypothetically a character named Satan could and would seduce people. You turned it around on itself and brought up the reality of the characters as you see them in the book. Interesting rabbit trail we are on here...

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 813 by ringo, posted 02-25-2019 10:54 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 819 by Stile, posted 02-27-2019 10:20 AM Phat has replied
 Message 821 by ringo, posted 02-27-2019 2:13 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 818 of 1444 (849171)
02-27-2019 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 816 by candle2
02-27-2019 7:31 AM


Character Evaluation: Both His and Ours
For those who want no part of God they can have what they want.
Follow my argument with ringo and see if you understand how I am framing it. I see your point in that God is described adequately through scripture and is not a made up character. Critics would argue that modern day Christianity excels at making up (marketing) a character and that the whole "we can have a personal relationship with Him" is, in essence, a marketing scam.
Well, guess what! God has shut the vast majority of them off from Him.
I totally understand your argument, but in the interests of debate, seek to weave it into my argument with ringo. ringo seems to think that humans dictate the terms and not God. He mentions a God that is useful *to us* and not the other way around. ringo was raised in church life for 1/3 of his long life and he knows scripture. You may argue that he does not know God. So....my question to you, (involving you in the argument) is how would you persuade someone such as him that God has not simply shut him off from the knowledge due to his irreverent behavior towards the One whom he sees as simply a character in the book?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 816 by candle2, posted 02-27-2019 7:31 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 823 by candle2, posted 02-27-2019 4:03 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 820 of 1444 (849175)
02-27-2019 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 819 by Stile
02-27-2019 10:20 AM


Re: Characters
Is it even possible to tell the difference for such an idea as "God?"
Good question. How would we test it? What standards would we use? In so doing, would we sabotage the experiment or further its honesty?
So many questions, so little time.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 819 by Stile, posted 02-27-2019 10:20 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 834 by Stile, posted 02-28-2019 11:37 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 827 of 1444 (849194)
02-28-2019 5:39 AM
Reply to: Message 821 by ringo
02-27-2019 2:13 PM


Re: Characters
ringo writes:
That's pretty arrogant, isn't it? Thinking you know better than the people who wrote the books and the people who chose the books for canon?
Let's address this argument for a moment. I have a smartphone. There is an internet connection to a world of information that the early Church Fathers did not have. We both have essentially the same book. Thus, the only way they could be wiser than I am is:
  • God made them that way.
  • They prayed and fasted more than I do.
  • They believed stronger than I do.
    Everything else is allegedly the same. Same book. Same God. Same humanity.
    This is why I present the idea that you and I both could write a book. We could include it with the 66. Faith would likely prefer that RC Sproul wrote it, but he too is dead now. Our only hurdle is in agreeing on Who we were writing about. And all we are doing is elaborating on your valued concept of what the message is.
    Being in agreement seems to be a major hurdle in religion.
    And could a fundie really write a book with a secular humanist and see eye to eye?
    Edited by Phat, : spelling

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 821 by ringo, posted 02-27-2019 2:13 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 832 by ringo, posted 02-28-2019 10:55 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 835 of 1444 (849212)
    02-28-2019 11:54 AM
    Reply to: Message 834 by Stile
    02-28-2019 11:37 AM


    Re: Characters
    stile writes:
    I submit that this in the most important question.
    That is - if you cannot obtain a satisfactory answer for this question - how can you make any meaningful progress on any other question regarding God?
    Upon re-examining your two choices, I would go with #2, It is important for me personally that God exists and is interactive with me. If I am honestly wrong about His abilities or intentions, it is not due to a lack of effort on my part.
    Apart from a twinge of conscience over not laying it *all* on the line and giving all of my time and spare change in helping others, I generally live each day trying to say prayers, do what good I can, and otherwise take care of myself and those I love as best as I can. Small doses of guilt can be mildly therapeutic, but in large doses, guilt can be fatal.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 834 by Stile, posted 02-28-2019 11:37 AM Stile has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 836 by Stile, posted 02-28-2019 12:09 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 837 of 1444 (849215)
    02-28-2019 12:36 PM
    Reply to: Message 832 by ringo
    02-28-2019 10:55 AM


    Re: Characters
    The message is universal. Virtually every religion values or pretends to value the message that I value. The hurdle we would have is that you insist on throwing that message away and keeping the envelope.
    Ahhh yes. Our old argument. Thus, the major hurdle preventing cooperation between you and I is that you value *doing* the message and I value *knowing and counting on* the messenger.
    Did it ever occur to you that an older man with health issues needs a messenger/rescuer/reassurer more than being told that he himself needs to build his own boat and focus on the needs of others? If I were 20, strapping and strong than sure...send me to the army! It is the duty of the strong to help the weak.
    As for my arrogance, I confess. To me, it is more confidence and hope in a rescuer. I need no guilt over the fact that I can't give as much as I should. I need a promise that I will receive what I need. And if Im selfish as well as arrogant, I bow at the altar.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 832 by ringo, posted 02-28-2019 10:55 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 838 by ringo, posted 02-28-2019 12:50 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 839 of 1444 (849220)
    02-28-2019 2:21 PM
    Reply to: Message 836 by Stile
    02-28-2019 12:09 PM


    Re: Characters
    In fact, it could quite possible mean that you want God to exist more than someone whose primary concern is the truth of God/reality.
    I suspect this is true. ringo wants the message to be true more than he wants to know or identify if there is an actual messenger or not. I want the help.
    To be frank, Stile---I see my opponents argument. It is reality and evidence-based. My argument is more fantasy and wishful. I would not want a God to exist who expected humans to have to do everything.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 836 by Stile, posted 02-28-2019 12:09 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 840 by ringo, posted 02-28-2019 2:38 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 841 of 1444 (849222)
    02-28-2019 2:54 PM
    Reply to: Message 840 by ringo
    02-28-2019 2:38 PM


    Re: Characters
    I'm just not that impressed that the messenger you obsess about managed to grasp the message that millions of other humans understand.
    If it were that easy, the whole world would easily embrace your message. Why do you think they don't? I know why they dont embrace it.
    1) Many are selfish. In addition, they are conservative and don't believe that there ever will be a free lunch. Especially if they have to make it.
    2) Many dont trust organized religion or the motives of them.
    3) There is no proven track record that giving everything away to the society provides that that society than support you.
    As far as Omniscience goes, I feel that God foresaw this eventuality. He is giving you guys your free will to figure out how to make it work without His interference.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 840 by ringo, posted 02-28-2019 2:38 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 845 by ringo, posted 03-01-2019 10:46 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 843 of 1444 (849229)
    02-28-2019 3:53 PM
    Reply to: Message 842 by Tangle
    02-28-2019 3:36 PM


    Re: Character Evaluation: Both His and Ours
    See? This is why I would rather imagine God as I feel He actually is rather than go with this autocratic notion that the book supposedly teaches.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 842 by Tangle, posted 02-28-2019 3:36 PM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 844 by Tangle, posted 02-28-2019 5:27 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 846 of 1444 (849242)
    03-01-2019 4:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 114 by Stile
    07-21-2015 9:01 AM


    Re: ** FOREknowledge**
    Stile writes:
    We are here in 2015.
    Assume that God exists, but the world is exactly as it is now (God doesn't seem to interfere, no objective evidence, no one can "prove" God...)
    Let's say that in 2025, I'm going to have a choice.
    The choice in front of me is to go left or right down a hiking path I'm taking a leisurely walk on.
    Let's say that the fork in the road joins up again later so my final destination will be the same.
    God looks ahead in time ('cause He can do that) and sees that my free-will choice will be to go left.
    God never tells me about it.
    God never tells anyone about it.
    Allow me to customize your scenario.
    We are here in 2019. In 2025, I get cancer. God technically knew that it would happen eternally. Cancer is part of a fallen world. A world of imperfection. ringo will argue that if God is all powerful He should protect us from such things. My counter-argument is that if God prevented all calamity and evil, it would be a far different life. We would not need many of the evolutionary adaptations which we now have. We would likely simply be giant brains (like that star trek episode) in communion with God. THEN what would we do? How is that scenario a relevant answer that humanity demands from God? Does He not have the right to create and allow things to run their course? Besides...the evil was another experiment based on free-willed angels who chose to rebel. They too are part of the equation.(hypothetically of course. Run with this one....)

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 114 by Stile, posted 07-21-2015 9:01 AM Stile has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 853 by Stile, posted 03-07-2019 1:41 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 847 of 1444 (849333)
    03-06-2019 2:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 130 by ringo
    07-21-2015 12:20 PM


    Re: ** FOREknowledge**
    ringo writes:
    If God has foreknowledge of evil and doesn't act on it, then He's evil.
    If He doesn't have foreknowledge, He may well have other limitations. In His "communion" with you, He may be exaggerating His powers.
    If He holds us responsible for our free choices, He must be held responsible for His.
    In summary, I don't think either "free will" or "omniscience" is a very useful concept.
    I don'tthink that "evil" is a useful concept either. In my mind, natural disasters are not so much evil as they are simply naturally inevitable. Evil is something caused by humans. Thats my definition, anyway.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 130 by ringo, posted 07-21-2015 12:20 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 848 by ringo, posted 03-06-2019 3:06 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 849 by 1.61803, posted 03-06-2019 5:17 PM Phat has not replied

      
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