|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It has nothing to do with what I want. The message IS true. It works, in a social species. I'm just not that impressed that the messenger you obsess about managed to grasp the message that millions of other humans understand. ringo wants the message to be true more than he wants to know or identify if there is an actual messenger or not.And our geese will blot out the sun.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It isn't "my" message. It's a universal message.
If it were that easy, the whole world would easily embrace your message. Phat writes:
What makes you think they don't?
Why do you think they don't? Phat writes:
Indeed. And most of them are religious.
Many are selfish. In addition, they are conservative and don't believe that there ever will be a free lunch. Especially if they have to make it. Phat writes:
Now you're arguingng against yourself. Remember, you're the religious one and you're the one who's arguing against the message.
Many dont trust organized religion or the motives of them. Phat writes:
Of course there is. There is no proven track record that giving everything away to the society provides that that society than support you.And our geese will blot out the sun.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
|
Phat writes:
Of course the disasters themselves are not evil. An omnipotent being that allows them to happen is.
In my mind, natural disasters are not so much evil as they are simply naturally inevitable. Phat writes:
Or Gods. Evil is something caused by humans. And a sin of omission counts.And our geese will blot out the sun.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
~1.6 writes:
Not at all. Your mother didn't create the evil nor does she have the ability to stop it. Simply going around saying God is evil because no good God would do such things is like saying you think your mother is evil because she gave birth to you and introduced you into a evil world.And our geese will blot out the sun.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
|
~1.6 writes:
And we're humans, so that works out nicely for this discussion.
Evil is a human construct. ~1.6 writes:
So is YHWH/Jehovah/God (Isaiah 45:7). It's a requirement of omipotence. Shiva is both the creator and destroyer.And our geese will blot out the sun.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
The "fallen Lucifer" thing is just made-up nonsense. You shouldn't make it such a big part of your theology. Or any part, actually. ringo argues that authority is not nor should not be the best option, and that we should essentially live out our roles in this cosmic scenario just as the fallen Lucifer is doing. For homework, look up how many times the name "Lucifer" appears in the Bible. The tell us whom it refers to."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I asked you what the Bible has to say. So lets see what Wiki has to say According to my calculations, the word "Lucifer" appears ONCE in the King James Version - and has been dropped entirely by most newer translations. In Isaiah 14:12, Lucifier IS the King of Babylon, not just a symbol. Any symbolism has been made up by your apologists.
Phat writes:
What if the so-called "mission of Christ" was also made up?
Christianity basically needs a fallen angel in order to justify the mission of Christ. Phat writes:
What's the problem with that?
What sense would it make for God, Creator of all seen and unseen, to simply be represented by another in a long line of fallible human teachers? Phat writes:
Stop saying that. It's a lie.
The fact that you never believed or were convinced of the reality of the supernatural.... Phat writes:
As I have told you before, I have had "experiences" too. You misinterpret them as "supernatural". I don't. Take it from one who has witnessed supernatural manifestations."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
|
Phat writes:
There's nothing naive about it. It's what the Bible says. The whole story of Lucifer is made up. The apologist stories about a powerful Satan/Lucifer/etc. are totally incompatable with an omniscient God. They're not only made up, they're an insult to God.
Apologists dont simply make stuff up any more than you can naively and blindly claim that Lucifer is only the King of Babylon. Phat writes:
Babylon means Babylon. Sometimes you guys are not literal enough.
Babylon means confusion... Phat writes:
Isaiah wasn't talking about today's world. Don't be so egocentric.
... and todays world fits that definition. Phat writes:
And that's clearly a human attruibute that needs no external spook to foster it. Don't try to shift the blame for your own shortcomings onto a fictional character.
Lucifer is clearly a spirit of pride, autonomy, and power. It is a jealous spirit and seeks to be the focus of self exultation and quite literally the vibe behind all that's wrong with humans in the world today. Phat writes:
You're not interested in the truth. You're afraid to discuss the apologists. Save your insults untill you can actually defend what those liars say.
You can fall back on your positions that vilify apologists, but you will find that your so-called literal "common sense" readings into who and what Lucifer is is itself deceptive, misleading, and a disservice to those who seek to know the truth behind human nature. Phat writes:
That "spirit" is not consistent with an omniscient God. And your insistence on throwing away the entire concept of an evil spirit is itself inspired by the same evil spirit which you deny."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
So which is it? Is God omniscient? Or does Satan exist?
The issue is as you quoted above, being that a "spirit" such as what satan would hypothetically have is inconsistent with an omniscient God. Which I agree with. Phat writes:
You keep saying that but you never back it up.
Jesus is more than simply a good humanist. Phat writes:
That mental state has nothing to do with any Satan - or Jesus, for that matter. And believers don't demonstrate an understanding greater than unbelievers. And humans are doomed to repeat their errors if they refuse to understand the mental/spiritual state that gets them in trouble."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I thought you agree that they are incompatible.
Why must it be one or the other? Phat writes:
It makes Satan irrelevant. If God is all-knowing, He's responsible for evil. Satan may be his tool (see Job), though that would be unnecessary too if God was omnipotent. But Satan can't be the super-villain that you make him out to be. Simply because God is all-knowing does not necessitate satans non-existence."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
But your own description of God is, "Creator of all that is, seen and unseen." Evil is seen and unseen. God is simply aware of evil."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
My point has nothing to do with the podcast. It has to do with what I quoted you saying. God can not be "simply aware" of evil if He is the creator of all things seen and unseen. Whats your point? I know you are in the library and cant listen to the podcast but there is a transcript which I copied. Edited by ringo, : Pselling."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
No. He created all things seen and unseen. That's your description, not mine. God CREATED evil, by your description, not mine.
God created the possibility of evil expressiveness. Phat writes:
So He just stands around watching evil happen, without lifting a finger to stop it. That is evil. God is aware of what He allowed to manifest. And you think "free will" is an excuse for that? We don't let our children do bad things just because we don't dare to violate their "free will". Why would God do it? "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
1. Aren't the Sons of God in Genesis 6:2 usually considered to be angels? Because the initial choice was given to fully mature spirit beings known as angels. Angels were not Gods "children".2. What has that got to do with humans? "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Humans are also subjects of the King and stewards of His world. They are not God's sons either in a literal biological sense, only in a figurative sense. Thus the angels were not sons in the human sense...is what I get out of it. They were more along the line of stewards or subjects. But what has that got to do with the topic?"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024