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Author Topic:   Chance as a sole-product of the Universe
Phat
Member
Posts: 16063
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 171 of 263 (849293)
03-04-2019 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by ringo
07-20-2016 11:56 AM


Satan as author of Chaos
ringo writes:

God is an anachronism. He has been ever since we started looking for the real answers to our questions. It has nothing to do with chance. Even if God does exist, He isn't the answer to anything.

My argument is essentially that scripture provides rational "old order" answers that chaos theory and human reasoning have been trying to overthrow ever since the snake whispered in Eves' ear.

Remember your old argument that Satan had gotten a bad rap? When you were defending him? Note the similarities mentioned in this quote:

writes:

But if chaos is our friend, then why does it have such a shabby reputation? All of us have said, during a tumultuous time, that, “my life is in chaos right now.” If a room is messy and not functional, we say sheepishly to a friend who sees it, “Sorry, my room is in chaos right now.” If people are rioting in the streets, and violence is breaking out, and fires are being set, and cars are being flipped, and utter bedlam has broken out in every conceivable way, we are apt to describe this situation with the word “chaos.” And in none of these examples are we misusing the world. All of these situations are, in fact, chaos. And it’s this chaos that Jordan Peterson likely sees his book as being the antidote to.

Peterson has developed a catchphrase of sorts, that has resonated and caught on with many of the disenfranchised people who have come to him. “Clean your room, Bucko.” It’s such a simple phrase. The same kids who likely ignored it when it came from their parents are now championing it as great philosophical wisdom now that it comes to them from Peterson. (...)It sounds so reasonable, doesn’t it? Too bad it’s completely wrong. The people throughout history who have made an impact, who have changed the world, for better or do worse, have never done so by cleaning their room, but by messing it up. Remember that angry mob I mentioned in my example of harmful chaos—the throngs of people turning over cars, breaking windows, setting fires, and throwing a massive tantrum? Let me ask you this: what are they saying? Are they saying, “We are through with order and we now want nothing but chaos?” No. They are saying, “We are tired of the order that exists now, and we demand a new order. We demand an order more in line with what we want the world to be.”


Our Friend, Chaos - The Order of Chaos: An Antidote to Meaning

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by ringo, posted 07-20-2016 11:56 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by ringo, posted 03-04-2019 11:45 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16063
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 174 of 263 (849297)
03-04-2019 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by ringo
03-04-2019 11:41 AM


Re: Not A Chance
ringo writes:

...So, instead of hoping that I'll see what you see, why don't you tell us how it contrasts with classic scripture.

This will take some time! I am just now barely reading this guy, and need to frame my argument. I am on his 2nd chapter now. Chapter 2 - The Art of Morality - The Order of Chaos: An Antidote to Meaning He mentions his reasoning for rejecting God and religion:
quote:
Religion was empty. The thought of a great despot in the sky, to whom I owed my soul, was no solace. And besides, I saw no shred of evidence that God was the truth. Christianity, the trendy religion of the time and place, was just a mythological construct designed to control people, much like every other religion that had existed throughout history. At the age of 14, I had already dismissed the notion of God. His existence was neither practical as a reality, nor desirable as a fantasy. My belief in God had the same shelf life as my belief in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, two entities that, unlike God, at least had something concrete to offer—presents and money. What did God offer? A place in the clouds where you could go and kiss his ass for eternity? No thanks.
Now, my challenge is to reread scripture to understand the contrast, because I'm quite certain there is one. I was hoping that your encyclopedic knowledge of scripture would provide you an opportunity to refute your original proclamation that God was an anachronism.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by ringo, posted 03-04-2019 11:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by ringo, posted 03-04-2019 12:05 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16063
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 176 of 263 (849300)
03-04-2019 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Tangle
03-04-2019 11:55 AM


Re: Necessary Certainty
tangle writes:

All you're doing Phat, is telling us what you want to believe. It's not based on anything.

Sometimes philosophy cannot be explained through objective proof or maths. Does that make such ponderings useless?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Tangle, posted 03-04-2019 11:55 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Tangle, posted 03-04-2019 12:01 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16063
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 178 of 263 (849302)
03-04-2019 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Tangle
03-04-2019 12:01 PM


Re: Necessary Certainty
Note that I started this rabbit trail asking a question about math probability and a desperate need to win money.(at the other topic) and how it morphed back to this one, which I commented on in 2016 just after I had lost my job and was beginning a year of sobriety from gambling. I need to get back to that mindset, but im scared. I need certainty and not probability.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Tangle, posted 03-04-2019 12:01 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Stile, posted 03-04-2019 1:05 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 185 by Tangle, posted 03-04-2019 1:46 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16063
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 180 of 263 (849304)
03-04-2019 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by ringo
03-04-2019 12:05 PM


Re: Not A Chance
I can agree that looking for real answers is preferable to empty belief. The authors of scripture, though derided as "Bronze Age Goatherders", stated some profound assertions regarding life experience and human nature. The author of the series of articles that I referenced is also known on YouTube as the Amazing Atheist. When I stumbled across his expose of chaos theory as meaning in life, I ran with it before deciding that it goes against what the goat herders believed and taught. And so here we are. I need to get ready for work but will continue forming some sort of arguments regarding certainty vs probability and good being the highest ideal vs chaos and order/disorder yin/yang type of thinking which I believe to be one of the social ideas that undermined Christian absolutism.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by ringo, posted 03-04-2019 12:05 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by ringo, posted 03-04-2019 12:22 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16063
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 182 of 263 (849306)
03-04-2019 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by ringo
03-04-2019 12:22 PM


Re: Not A Chance
Here are the basic arguments that support rational secular thinking, regarding RC Sprouls book (and my sig quote)
Review of R. C. Sproul (1994) Not a Chance: The Myth of Chance in Modern Science and Cosmology Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books, xiv+235

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by ringo, posted 03-04-2019 12:22 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by ringo, posted 03-04-2019 12:34 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16063
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


(1)
Message 191 of 263 (851275)
04-22-2019 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by AZPaul3
04-22-2019 12:46 AM


Re: Necessary Certainty
If in fact we (humans) did come from mindless evolution as you call it, can we speculate on what we will eventually evolve into? Will the mind develop from mindlessness to nirvana mindfulness? (In your opinion)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by AZPaul3, posted 04-22-2019 12:46 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by AZPaul3, posted 04-22-2019 8:34 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 193 by Theodoric, posted 04-22-2019 8:34 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 199 by Stile, posted 04-22-2019 9:34 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16063
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 196 of 263 (851291)
04-22-2019 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by FLRW
04-22-2019 9:16 AM


Re: Necessary Certainty
You seem like a chap who enjoys discussions and debates. What are your basic beliefs and/or conclusions regarding the source of inspiration for humans? Do we make it ourselves through study and further sociological and technological advancement or is it given to us somehow through inspiration from another source? If so, what do you believe that source to be?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by FLRW, posted 04-22-2019 9:16 AM FLRW has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16063
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 214 of 263 (857137)
07-06-2019 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Stile
07-09-2015 9:29 AM


Re: Not A Chance
Stile writes:

But this concept of "chance as a thing" is incredibly strange and this is the first time I've heard of it.

I've never thought that chance is an actual thing causing things to happen.
Can you indicate any group of people that do follow such a strange idea?

There was a show on todays radio.
Creation By Chance

A good audio podcast.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Stile, posted 07-09-2015 9:29 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by AZPaul3, posted 07-06-2019 5:49 AM Phat has replied
 Message 228 by Stile, posted 07-08-2019 10:23 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16063
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 216 of 263 (857182)
07-06-2019 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by AZPaul3
07-06-2019 5:49 AM


Re: Not A Chance
The only "majick" in play here is your methodological naturalism which masquerades for you humans claiming divine status.

Frank Tipler: The Singularity

I know that some of you have a disdain for videos and even audio podcasts, so I included the transcript with this 11 minute talk.
FRANK J. TIPLER is Professor of Mathematical Physics at Tulane University. He is the co-author of (with John Barrow) The Anthropic Cosmological Principle, about the significance of intelligent life in the universe, and the author of The Physics of Immortality about the ultimate limits of computers, and the role computers will play in the universe, and The Physics of Christianity, about his scientific research into central Christian claims and beliefs.

Transcript


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by AZPaul3, posted 07-06-2019 5:49 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by ringo, posted 07-06-2019 12:19 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16063
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 218 of 263 (857188)
07-06-2019 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by ringo
07-06-2019 12:19 PM


Re: Not A Chance
*sigh*....we've been down this road umpteen million times...but I guess we can revisit it.

First of all, who is "us" (in your opinion as to the clear implied meaning of the text)


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by ringo, posted 07-06-2019 12:19 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by ringo, posted 07-06-2019 12:27 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16063
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 219 of 263 (857189)
07-06-2019 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by dwise1
04-22-2019 11:03 AM


Re: Necessary Certainty
dWise1 writes:

We normals try to use language to describe what we observe happening (AKA "reality"), while the fundies and creationists try to use language to change reality to fit their own whim, a form of word magick fit for lawyers and theologians.

Normals=language based upon observation and the scientific method.
Lawyers=language based on what gets their client off the hook and pads their wallet
Theologians=language based on their interpretation and belief in defining an absolute truth.

Right? or nah


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2019 11:03 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16063
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 221 of 263 (857193)
07-06-2019 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by ringo
07-06-2019 12:27 PM


Re: Not A Chance
It appears that the authors of that fictional story were not as finicky about the idea of multiple gods as you are. If nothing else, it suggests that the Bible is not 100% consistent.
I question your sources on this one. You seem to push the idea that the Bible taught polytheism in the story of Job. I found this article:
The Polytheism of Genesis,Chapter One I would argue that though polytheism and pantheism are basic traits of human nature regarding belief where absolute monotheism is against our basic nature(nobody wants an authority in charge over their mind) ...in my opinion, God exists, (as One Deity over everything) and chose to personally relate to humanity (first by choosing the Jews and later by sending Jesus(His human character personified) and still later by choosing everybody...so as to secularize the belief.

But what has that got to do with you constantly calling God a liar?
Explain to the peanut gallery how I call God a liar. Be specific, keeping in mind that you have no clue what I do, could do, or have done.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by ringo, posted 07-06-2019 12:27 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by ringo, posted 07-06-2019 12:59 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16063
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 223 of 263 (857199)
07-06-2019 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by ringo
07-06-2019 12:59 PM


Re: Not A Chance
OK I see the context. And yes, I meant genesis rather than Job. My point is that God foreknew that we were going to become "like Him" in the same way that Lucifer chose to rebel from Heaven and become a god himself. Since there is clearly only One God, don't even try to argue that we are as much gods as God is God. You will lose.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by ringo, posted 07-06-2019 12:59 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by ringo, posted 07-06-2019 1:13 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16063
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 229 of 263 (857393)
07-08-2019 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by Stile
07-08-2019 10:23 AM


Re: Not A Chance
What I got from the podcast is the idea that probability and chance are two different things. Probability is measured and thus known, whereas chance is open ended. The point of the coin toss was that the external agent launching the coin was known. The determination was based on gravity and the physics surrounding the coin. Also the strength exerted by the coin tosser. Chance (or probability) was an abstract and not in any way responsible for the outcome. In other words, chance itself is not a causal agent. Chance and the Sovereignty of God: Randomness

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Stile, posted 07-08-2019 10:23 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Stile, posted 07-08-2019 10:40 AM Phat has replied

  
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