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Author Topic:   Chance as a sole-product of the Universe
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 181 of 185 (849305)
03-04-2019 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Phat
03-04-2019 12:15 PM


Re: Not A Chance
Phat writes:

The authors of scripture, though derided as "Bronze Age Goatherders", stated some profound assertions regarding life experience and human nature.


There is wisdom that comes with life experience and has nothing to do with any belief system.

Phat writes:

I need to get ready for work but will continue forming some sort of arguments regarding certainty vs probability and good being the highest ideal vs chaos and order/disorder yin/yang type of thinking ...


I think you're making a fundamental error in trying to equate Satan with chaos and God with order.

Phat writes:

...which I believe to be one of the social ideas that undermined Christian absolutism.


I don't think it was any external ideas that caused the decline and fall of Christianity. I think it collapsed from its own weight and structural weaknesses.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Phat, posted 03-04-2019 12:15 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Phat, posted 03-04-2019 12:29 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12164
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 182 of 185 (849306)
03-04-2019 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by ringo
03-04-2019 12:22 PM


Re: Not A Chance
Here are the basic arguments that support rational secular thinking, regarding RC Sprouls book (and my sig quote)
Review of R. C. Sproul (1994) Not a Chance: The Myth of Chance in Modern Science and Cosmology Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books, xiv+235

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by ringo, posted 03-04-2019 12:22 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by ringo, posted 03-04-2019 12:34 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 183 of 185 (849307)
03-04-2019 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Phat
03-04-2019 12:29 PM


Re: Not A Chance
Phat writes:

Here are the basic arguments that support rational secular thinking, regarding RC Sprouls book (and my sig quote)


The review starts out, "This truly dreadful book...."

Which side are we on?


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Phat, posted 03-04-2019 12:29 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3393
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 184 of 185 (849309)
03-04-2019 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Phat
03-04-2019 12:03 PM


Re: Necessary Certainty
Phat writes:

I need certainty and not probability.

And what if certainty doesn't exist?

Would you rather know, for certain, that such certainty is unavailable?
OR
Would you rather fool yourself into believing you "have a certainty" that is, actually, false (because it's known to be unavailable - which means whatever-you-have-isn't-it?) - and then you're incredibly let down when the reality occurs and the falsity is proven to you?

Now move onto our current situation:
What if we don't know if the certainty exists or not?

Would you rather know, for certain, that we are not yet aware of any certainty? And that it's quite possible that none exists? But have a way to identify if any-idea-that-comes-along actually is "for certain" or not?
OR
Would you rather fool yourself into believing you "have a certainty" that is, actually, false (because it's not even known if any certainty is available or not - which means whatever-you-have-isn't-it?) - and then you're incredibly let down when the reality occurs and the falsity is proven to you?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Phat, posted 03-04-2019 12:03 PM Phat has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6675
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 185 of 185 (849310)
03-04-2019 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Phat
03-04-2019 12:03 PM


Re: Necessary Certainty
Phat writes:

I need certainty and not probability.

For as long as all you have is belief, there is no certainty.

If you want certainty, I can tell you for certain that you have a short time alive and that it's a good idea to be happy while you're here if you can.

The happy afterlife is a very, very, very low probability. A very poor bet Phat.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Phat, posted 03-04-2019 12:03 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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