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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Lot would never offer himself as that likely went against his own personal feelings. Granted, I see evidence on the internet of Christians acting like jerks. To wit:
It seems that many Christians are insecure of their own beliefs and feel a need to bully out competing views. I myself would likely be accused of compromising my own faith in pointing this out---but I need to be honest.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
The fictional character "Satan" represents our own free will. What "Satan" wants IS what we want. Every time we're tempted to do something that we "shouldn't", we're wanting to be independent of God. And you trust your senses and logic in making these choices. ringo writes: What if Hell was marketed as a cool destination, like Bermuda. Would it be possible to be fooled by the brochures? ...I have never chosen to go to Hell and I never will.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
phat writes: What if Hell was marketed as a cool destination, like Bermuda. Would it be possible to be fooled by the brochures? ringo writes: Well for one thing, I'm not interested in drawing tenants, but if I were Satan, and knowing full well the peculiarities of todays world, I would make hell look like church for the believers...but for you science types, I would first off make sure not to appear religious at all. I would fill your heads full of half truths, such as "Noah had to build his own ark". Nevermind that He needed Gods quiet inner voice to complete it. I would, in fact, attempt to persuade people that God was a myth and so was Jesus. It would be even better if they thought I was a myth, for they wouldnt see the blindsided punch coming. I would trick them into holding fiercely on to their freedom from religion, unless they were believers. In essence I would use religion as a double edged sword...ridiculed in front of the unbelievers, deified in front of the believers. Why don't you market it that way then? I would throw in all of the pleasing vices that men enjoy. I suppose that were i satan, my goal would be to convince everyone to simply commune with each other in a humanist socialist utopia and attempt to make a better human race for eternity...no God required. Then again, we could flip this tale on its head and say that perhaps thats what God is trying to do....eliminate religion, unify humanity, and become a socialist brotherhood. None of you guys seem to think too much of the God of the Bible, however....so warming up to Him would require extra measures.
quote: Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
What an incredibly stupid thing to say. Why would you pay any attention to the idiot who said that? And why would you have any use for a God who behaved like that? Gosh, you are right! I was seduced by humor, but it seems to have bounced off you. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Characters form empathy or indifference. We warm up to heroes and decry villains. You have a valid case about the God of the Bible being at times every bit as villainous as not....I suppose one major way in which we differ is that I have a preconceived notion of this larger than life character which differs substanteouly from what plain reading might suggest.
You're the one who rejects what's in the Bible and makes up all kinds of fiction about this "Satan" character. Why should we "warm up' to a God character that you made up in your head? I get your point, but the way that you phrase it annoys me. It does cause me to think, however. Songs sung long ago in church come wafting back to me.... Revelation Song - Holy Holy Holy is the Lord God almighty etc.... In fact I can make your argument challenging me as I think of my own argument. In essence, my argument is why not get to know God as we understand Him and not simply as the book coldly portrays Him. The counter-argument would assert that this is part of the problem with modern day Christianity...that they create their own character. You then would (again) point out that all that we can know of the character comes from the text of the book and not from any songwriters imagination. I would become exasperated and give up trying to explain to you that God is larger than the book and that belief is not making Him up so much as it is understanding Who He acually is. You then would explain to me that the message is what is important.(again) I would attempt to get you to make up God (hypothetically) rather than simply limiting any possible attributes to the book. You would conclude the argument by saying "Thanks, but I'd rather not." Sound close? One further thought: Many of our arguments here (Free Will vs Omniscience) (Who Made God?) by necessity assume the rhetorical and imaginative. I started this particular argument that we are continuing now by asking how hypothetically a character named Satan could and would seduce people. You turned it around on itself and brought up the reality of the characters as you see them in the book. Interesting rabbit trail we are on here...Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
For those who want no part of God they can have what they want. Follow my argument with ringo and see if you understand how I am framing it. I see your point in that God is described adequately through scripture and is not a made up character. Critics would argue that modern day Christianity excels at making up (marketing) a character and that the whole "we can have a personal relationship with Him" is, in essence, a marketing scam.
Well, guess what! God has shut the vast majority of them off from Him. I totally understand your argument, but in the interests of debate, seek to weave it into my argument with ringo. ringo seems to think that humans dictate the terms and not God. He mentions a God that is useful *to us* and not the other way around. ringo was raised in church life for 1/3 of his long life and he knows scripture. You may argue that he does not know God. So....my question to you, (involving you in the argument) is how would you persuade someone such as him that God has not simply shut him off from the knowledge due to his irreverent behavior towards the One whom he sees as simply a character in the book? Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Is it even possible to tell the difference for such an idea as "God?" Good question. How would we test it? What standards would we use? In so doing, would we sabotage the experiment or further its honesty? So many questions, so little time.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: Let's address this argument for a moment. I have a smartphone. There is an internet connection to a world of information that the early Church Fathers did not have. We both have essentially the same book. Thus, the only way they could be wiser than I am is:
That's pretty arrogant, isn't it? Thinking you know better than the people who wrote the books and the people who chose the books for canon? Everything else is allegedly the same. Same book. Same God. Same humanity. This is why I present the idea that you and I both could write a book. We could include it with the 66. Faith would likely prefer that RC Sproul wrote it, but he too is dead now. Our only hurdle is in agreeing on Who we were writing about. And all we are doing is elaborating on your valued concept of what the message is. Being in agreement seems to be a major hurdle in religion. And could a fundie really write a book with a secular humanist and see eye to eye? Edited by Phat, : spellingChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
stile writes: Upon re-examining your two choices, I would go with #2, It is important for me personally that God exists and is interactive with me. If I am honestly wrong about His abilities or intentions, it is not due to a lack of effort on my part. I submit that this in the most important question.That is - if you cannot obtain a satisfactory answer for this question - how can you make any meaningful progress on any other question regarding God? Apart from a twinge of conscience over not laying it *all* on the line and giving all of my time and spare change in helping others, I generally live each day trying to say prayers, do what good I can, and otherwise take care of myself and those I love as best as I can. Small doses of guilt can be mildly therapeutic, but in large doses, guilt can be fatal. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
The message is universal. Virtually every religion values or pretends to value the message that I value. The hurdle we would have is that you insist on throwing that message away and keeping the envelope. Ahhh yes. Our old argument. Thus, the major hurdle preventing cooperation between you and I is that you value *doing* the message and I value *knowing and counting on* the messenger.Did it ever occur to you that an older man with health issues needs a messenger/rescuer/reassurer more than being told that he himself needs to build his own boat and focus on the needs of others? If I were 20, strapping and strong than sure...send me to the army! It is the duty of the strong to help the weak. As for my arrogance, I confess. To me, it is more confidence and hope in a rescuer. I need no guilt over the fact that I can't give as much as I should. I need a promise that I will receive what I need. And if Im selfish as well as arrogant, I bow at the altar.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
In fact, it could quite possible mean that you want God to exist more than someone whose primary concern is the truth of God/reality. I suspect this is true. ringo wants the message to be true more than he wants to know or identify if there is an actual messenger or not. I want the help. To be frank, Stile---I see my opponents argument. It is reality and evidence-based. My argument is more fantasy and wishful. I would not want a God to exist who expected humans to have to do everything.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I'm just not that impressed that the messenger you obsess about managed to grasp the message that millions of other humans understand. If it were that easy, the whole world would easily embrace your message. Why do you think they don't? I know why they dont embrace it.1) Many are selfish. In addition, they are conservative and don't believe that there ever will be a free lunch. Especially if they have to make it. 2) Many dont trust organized religion or the motives of them. 3) There is no proven track record that giving everything away to the society provides that that society than support you. As far as Omniscience goes, I feel that God foresaw this eventuality. He is giving you guys your free will to figure out how to make it work without His interference.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
See? This is why I would rather imagine God as I feel He actually is rather than go with this autocratic notion that the book supposedly teaches.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Stile writes: We are here in 2015.Assume that God exists, but the world is exactly as it is now (God doesn't seem to interfere, no objective evidence, no one can "prove" God...) Let's say that in 2025, I'm going to have a choice. The choice in front of me is to go left or right down a hiking path I'm taking a leisurely walk on. Let's say that the fork in the road joins up again later so my final destination will be the same. God looks ahead in time ('cause He can do that) and sees that my free-will choice will be to go left. God never tells me about it. God never tells anyone about it. Allow me to customize your scenario.We are here in 2019. In 2025, I get cancer. God technically knew that it would happen eternally. Cancer is part of a fallen world. A world of imperfection. ringo will argue that if God is all powerful He should protect us from such things. My counter-argument is that if God prevented all calamity and evil, it would be a far different life. We would not need many of the evolutionary adaptations which we now have. We would likely simply be giant brains (like that star trek episode) in communion with God. THEN what would we do? How is that scenario a relevant answer that humanity demands from God? Does He not have the right to create and allow things to run their course? Besides...the evil was another experiment based on free-willed angels who chose to rebel. They too are part of the equation.(hypothetically of course. Run with this one....) Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: I don'tthink that "evil" is a useful concept either. In my mind, natural disasters are not so much evil as they are simply naturally inevitable. Evil is something caused by humans. Thats my definition, anyway. If God has foreknowledge of evil and doesn't act on it, then He's evil. If He doesn't have foreknowledge, He may well have other limitations. In His "communion" with you, He may be exaggerating His powers. If He holds us responsible for our free choices, He must be held responsible for His. In summary, I don't think either "free will" or "omniscience" is a very useful concept.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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