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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1654 of 1748 (848520)
02-08-2019 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1653 by Phat
02-08-2019 12:38 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:
My "pet" God is rational.
How can you call it rational when you can't provide reasons for its irrational behaviour?
Phat writes:
Certainly not limited to the one you compile from the book.
Again, the book is the only source you have. Everything else is made up.
Phat writes:
Basically an initial Creator of all seen and unseen. A source for the fodder for Big Bangs. An initial source. An eternal conduit of creativity and encouragement. A validation that human minds are not all that we have to bank on. An insurance policy of Hope for an uncertain future with fallible humans likely to blow themselves up if left to their own instincts.
How is any of that rational?
Phat writes:
Why must your qualification for acceptance hinge on something different from that? I suspect it will be because you discovered and defined it rather than it defining you.
"It defining you" is the epitome of irrationality.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1653 by Phat, posted 02-08-2019 12:38 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1656 by Phat, posted 02-08-2019 1:03 PM ringo has replied
 Message 1658 by Phat, posted 02-08-2019 1:10 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1659 of 1748 (848526)
02-08-2019 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1656 by Phat
02-08-2019 1:03 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
"It defining you" is the epitome of irrationality.
Are you suggesting that "you defining it" is more rational?
Of course. Humans are the only things in the universe known to define anything.
Phat writes:
Why does the definition emerge in the last seconds of a cosmic year calendar than it would in the first second?
Because a definition is - by definition - something that humans use to describe a human idea.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1656 by Phat, posted 02-08-2019 1:03 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1660 by Phat, posted 02-08-2019 1:16 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1661 of 1748 (848528)
02-08-2019 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1658 by Phat
02-08-2019 1:10 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:
Are you thus arguing that the book is *not* made up?
Of course the book is made up - but at least it's stable. What you make up is strictly ad hoc. You make up a touchy-feely God and then try to link it somehow with the Jesus who IS in the book.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1658 by Phat, posted 02-08-2019 1:10 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1663 of 1748 (848531)
02-08-2019 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1660 by Phat
02-08-2019 1:16 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:
Are there any ideas that are not human ideas?
We've been through that already. Are there any paintings that are not made of paint?
Phat writes:
Is reality a human idea?
Reality is what it is regardless of any human ideas about it.
Phat writes:
Are we to conclude that anything a human cannot define or describe does not exist for all practical purposes?
"For all practical purposes", certainly. Try walking into a store and asking for something that you can't define or describe.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1660 by Phat, posted 02-08-2019 1:16 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1664 by Phat, posted 02-08-2019 1:27 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1667 of 1748 (848535)
02-08-2019 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1664 by Phat
02-08-2019 1:27 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:
The author concludes that "the universe" creates its own complexity. How is this not also ad hoc?
Do you know what "ad hoc" means? Your ideas about God change to fit the circumstances. How is that similar to the universe creating its own complexity?
Phat writes:
Are there any universes that *may* exist that we cannot yet define or describe?
If we could detect them, we could describe what we detected. If there's nothing we can detect, we can't have any confidence that there's anything there.
Phat writes:
If we correlate the word paint to the word idea, we thus hypothetically have possible universes, multiverses, or dare i say Gods that exist as ideas not yet defined.
You can't have a painting without the medium of paint. You can't have an idea without the medium of mind.
If something exists as an idea, it IS defined.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1664 by Phat, posted 02-08-2019 1:27 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1675 by Phat, posted 03-10-2019 11:48 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1676 of 1748 (849447)
03-10-2019 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1675 by Phat
03-10-2019 11:48 AM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:
Did this idea create/imagine us before we defined it?
You wouldn't have any way of knowing, would you? If the real "creator" was completely different from the one that you've made up, you wouldn't know it, would you? If the real creator had died on day eight, you wouldn't know it, would you?
So, if you can't know anything about any supposed creator that imagined us, what difference does it make whether he imagined us or not?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1675 by Phat, posted 03-10-2019 11:48 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1677 by Phat, posted 03-10-2019 3:35 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1678 of 1748 (849454)
03-10-2019 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1677 by Phat
03-10-2019 3:35 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:
So your idea is that even if a God existed, you assume that He expects you to do it yourself...
His expectations don't even enter into it. The fact is that he isn't doing it, so we have to do it ourselves if we want it done.
Phat writes:
...and that its best just to leave Him alone..
Him and the leprechauns. Yup. Might as well leave him alone. Anything else is just wasted effort.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1677 by Phat, posted 03-10-2019 3:35 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1679 by Phat, posted 03-11-2019 9:49 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1682 of 1748 (849472)
03-11-2019 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1679 by Phat
03-11-2019 9:49 AM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:
So is a prayer wasted effort?
As others have said, it may have psychological effects, much like waving a chicken over your head. But if you expect it to provide you with your daily bread, you're better off going to work instead.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
His expectations don't even enter into it.
Then why is one of His two major commandments to love Him with our whole being?
That's the expectation of the shamans who wrote the commandments. Of course, one of the major aspects of loving "God" with your whole being is keeping the shamans provided with roast ox.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1679 by Phat, posted 03-11-2019 9:49 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1683 by Phat, posted 03-11-2019 3:45 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1684 of 1748 (849487)
03-11-2019 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1683 by Phat
03-11-2019 3:45 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:
Were Moses and Aaron Shamans?
Yes.
Phat writes:
Of course one mans Roast Ox is another mans spare change.
I don't promise anybody communion with God in exchange for spare change.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1683 by Phat, posted 03-11-2019 3:45 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1685 by Phat, posted 03-11-2019 4:08 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1686 of 1748 (849489)
03-11-2019 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1685 by Phat
03-11-2019 4:08 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:
Your spare change is communion. You don't even need to bring God up.
It's human-to-human communion. I don't have to bring up leprechauns either.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1685 by Phat, posted 03-11-2019 4:08 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1687 by Phat, posted 03-11-2019 4:14 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1688 of 1748 (849493)
03-11-2019 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1687 by Phat
03-11-2019 4:14 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
It's human-to-human communion.
So was Jesus.
Then so was Long John Silver.
Phat writes:
Jesus did bring up His Father a lot. I wonder if he would do that today?
Today He could be an atheist without being lynched.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1687 by Phat, posted 03-11-2019 4:14 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1690 by Phat, posted 03-13-2019 7:57 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1692 of 1748 (849555)
03-14-2019 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1690 by Phat
03-13-2019 7:57 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:
But His message would not change.
So, would you still worship an atheist Jesus? While still rejecting His message?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1690 by Phat, posted 03-13-2019 7:57 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1693 by Phat, posted 03-22-2019 3:03 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1694 of 1748 (849818)
03-22-2019 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1693 by Phat
03-22-2019 3:03 AM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:
What could such a Jesus do for anybody?
So that's the bottom line? Jesus is some celestial butler?
Phat writes:
He would by definition be unconnected from anything greater than Himself.
But we're not unconnected from anything greater than ourselves. We're connected to each other. The group is greater than the individual. That's the point of being a social species. That's the point of helping each other. Even Jesus understood that.
Phat writes:
He would preach that evidence was the method for determining the truth.
He did. Read the story of doubting Thomas again (John 20:19-29).
Phat writes:
His vocabulary would contain no words like "Faith" or "Belief".
So much the better.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1693 by Phat, posted 03-22-2019 3:03 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1695 by Phat, posted 03-22-2019 12:04 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1696 of 1748 (849821)
03-22-2019 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1695 by Phat
03-22-2019 12:04 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:
Are you suggesting that IF Jesus existed and IF
He was to exist today, humanity would be better off were He an atheist?
I'm suggesting that humanity would be better off without empty belief. For one thing, we could stop wasting money on crystal cathedrals and spend it on healthcare.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1695 by Phat, posted 03-22-2019 12:04 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1699 by Phat, posted 03-22-2019 8:53 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1701 of 1748 (849852)
03-23-2019 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1699 by Phat
03-22-2019 8:53 PM


Re: Origins Of Reality
Phat writes:
People should be able to spend their money on whatever they want.
That's a pretty conservative viewpoint.
Phat writes:
We don't need extreme socialists to form some consensus on what's best for all of us...
You're the only one who talks about "extreme socialism".
And we certainly do need a consensus on what's best for all of us. It's called "civilization", "society", etc.
Phat writes:
As far as empty belief goes, this whole atheism thing is more empty to me than anything the believers can churn out.
That's kinda the point. If you can't detect any water in the glass, it can't do you any good. For all intents and purposes, it is empty, so there's no use pretending it's full or even half-full.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1699 by Phat, posted 03-22-2019 8:53 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1703 by Phat, posted 03-24-2019 10:16 AM ringo has replied

  
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