Fundamental Biblical Christianity and Fundamental Islam Fundamentally 180% Opposites

The above may be true, but not verifiable for use in substantiating the supernatural nature of either the Quran or the Bible as the Bibical prophecies are.

The above benevolence was strictly on a voluntary basis. The early church was under heavy persecution and this worked well. It never worked well for a permanent setup. The Biblical account never even said it was advocated on a large scale. It simply stated that that's what they did. That the fundamentalistic Biblical Christian church is the most benevolent people of the planet in late centuries and that that influence has highly influenced the benevolence of our highly protestant Christian based nation shows that the principle of sharing has been alive and well in the evangelical fundamentalist community. Many wealthy Christians like C.T. Studd of England and LeTorneau of the US gave a large percentage of their wealth away. Our tax system is designed to encourage giving also. Compare all this to what fundie Islamic nations do for the people of the world. The policy of Islam has been to export terror and hate, not benevolence. Most, if not all of the 9/11 19 were Saudi Muslims. Much of our giving goes to nations, including Muslim and pagan nations, though we are majority Christian.

----------------------------------------------------------------------I don't have time for a new thread now. Since this would be conducive to this thread topic, I'll list the following:1. Sura 11:42, 43 states that one of Noah's sons refused to go into the ark and drowned. The Bible (Genesis 7:1, 7, 13 states that Noah's three sons all entered the ark and were saved from the flood.2. Sura 11:44 states that the ark came to rest on the hills of Judea whereas the Bible has it resting on the hills of Aarat in Turkey.3. Abraham's fathers name was Azar. Sura 6:74. According to the Bible, the name was Terah.4. Quran has Abraham living and worshipping at Mecca whereas the Bible has him in Hebron5. Sura 37: 100 - 112. Abraham was to sacrifice Ishmael. Bible say it was Isaac.6. Sura 21: 68-69 and 9:69 Quran has Abraham thrown into a fire by Nimrod. How could this be when according to the Bible, Nimrod lived many centuries before Abraham?7. He miss-names Biblical people like Potiphar, Goliath, Korah, Saul, Enoch, Ezekiel, John the Baptist, and Jonah.8. He has Moses being adopted by Pharoah's wife rather than his daughter.9. He has the Biblical flood taking place in Moses's time. Sura 7:136 and 7:59Others can be cited, but the above should be sufficient for substantiation of my point.Mohammed, in numerous sunas would appeal to the Bible to substantiate some of what he was teaching since the Bible was older so he did recognize the Bible as authority, but got a number of things wrong.

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Islam, as taught and practiced by both Mohammed and the authors of the Precept Sunnas regarded by the vast majority of Muslim scholars and clerics for doctrine in Islam is reflected by the Suni and Shia than the nice sounding stuff in the link ascribed to Islam.

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Xianity, as taught and practiced by God, Abraham, Moses, John the Baptist, Jesus (esp when in Revelations: the story about the second and longer part of his life), paul and the authors of the Bible, regarded by the vast majority of Xian scholars and priests for doctrine in Xianity is reflected by the RC and evangelicals rather than the nice sounding stuff Buzsaw ascribes to Xianity here.What is the difference between the two statements above? You admit you are an unknown minority, sticking to the REAL Xianity that others reject. So do they!Once upon a time there was ONLY RC. What we have right now in Islam (thanks to our intervention in Islamic countries) is something very similar. We have helped concentrate power in Sunnis and Shias, but this is not to say no others versions exist, even in nations ruled by Sunni or Shia.Is it valid for a historian to look to the past and say at one time RC ruled the entire Xian thinking and so nothing good could come of it, and if some other Xians came along, then eventually they would show their real RC selves?If not, then how can you do this now with Islam?And as it is, even Shias and Sunnis do not have to believe in the specific dictates you posted. These forms make contradictory interpretations POSSIBLE (which certain leaders have taken advantage of), but not NECESSARY.Do you know any Islamic person? I know people that are nonsunni and nonshiite, and I know people that are Shiite. Interestingly enough these shiites are of a "denomination" of shia that do NOT ascribe to the tenets you say they must!Currently I have a friend that is staying in an Islamic country, with a family of a local shia cleric. That friend is a pagan. I mean a real, many gods pagan. That person gets along fine with all of them. There is a bit of culture shock (esp.with toilet facilities), but no problems religion wise... where is your stereotype of people in "Islamland"?You also badmouth Palestinians as an example of Islamic evil, yet you always miss that there are Xian Palestinians living right along side Muslim Palestinians... both being oppressed by Israelis. How do Xians and Muslims coexist there now, and how have they done so for a while?Why must Islam conform to the one flavor you ascribe, when Xianity does not? It just makes no sense!And you still have not answered my questions regarding the clear proscriptions against religious intolerance stated in the Quran. Why can't a Muslim (shia or sunni) believe contradictions between Sunna and Quran are trumped by Quran? Ahem... IN REALITY, many do.Currently there are many Islamic countries enslaved by authoritarian governments which use the Islamic religion as their source of power. Do you see me question this? It is a terrible state of affairs. But that does not mean that all Muslims believe in this, or must believe in this.But let's say your accusations are right. Then what is the solution we MUST use for the above mentioned problem? If no Muslim can believe other than you claim, then isn't the only solution conversion or extermination of all Muslims? If not, what is?And finally, one day YOU will let down your sheep clothing, right? In the end times? One day I must become your enemy just because I am not your religion, right?So what makes you better than them? Why should the entire secular world not be equally worried about both of your intolerant apocalyptic visions for this planet?The title of this thread is that you are opposites, if the end is the same for me, then how am I supposed to view either as opposites?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

1. Christianity was never practiced by Abraham or Moses. They weren't Christians but were of a different age for a different purpose in the plan of God for the ages and for his kingdom which was eventually to be established on earth.2. John the Baptist did not write Revelation. The apostle John did and simply prophesied what was to come in the days when the world was to become such that God must intervene with judgement before mankind self destructs from corruption and evil. It was also the time when Jesus would return and set up his rightious kingdom where the whole world would be blessed with no wars, sickness and long life with super climate. 3. Neither Jesus or his apostles taught Christians to do harm to anyone, nor did they themselves, except when Peter cut off the soldier's ear and Jesus rebuked him, restoring the ear. There you go, Holmes with your spin lie. I never ever admitted to being an unknown minority. I'm part of millions of Biblical fundamentalist evangelicals who are well known. Biblical non-violent Christianity is practiced by a whole bunch of us, and that seems to irritate you soooooo much more than the fundamentalism of the Quran taught and practiced by their prophet, the Jihad killers practice. Nonee. As the great multitude of Christians in communist China today, there were multitudes of underground Christians during the dark ages of the bloody inquisitions and persecution perpetrated by the bishops and popes of Vatican City. Tell us about it. What country? Does your pagan friend practice their religion openly in the home/nation?I've never said there aren't good Muslim people who are non-violent. There's mutitudes of them. What I've said is that the leaders and devouts in fundamenalist nations who go by the prophet, the sunnas and the Quran become the most oppressive, intolerant and violent. I understand that in Palestine streets are named after terrorist suicide bombers. Their children are taught that this is a noble thing to do. There's no Israel on their school maps, etc, etc. Mmm, and how did the Christians fare who resided along side the Muslims in Lebanon?? How are the survivors of the persecution up there doing these days?? Most of the writers of the valid Sunnas were close to or well informed about the prophet, his life and his book. They wrote and taught accordingly. The violence in them was not that contradictory. True. I have not denied that. I've clearly stated that until a nation gets totally in control of the fundie leaders, such as in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, etc, they do not have the power to implement the true Islam as taught and practiced by the prophet and his subsequent desciples. Keep them at bay as Israel does, as we are now forced to do, and as the world has done for 14 centuries. Otherwise, watch out and beware!!! You're advancing the cause of militant Islam right here and now, as you debunk the truths I have documented. They love apologists like you who make good folks feel comfortable with joining up thinking there's no danger once the numbers add up so as for them to take over the nation as they've done in so many already.Fundie Christians are sheep. We preach and teach the fundamentals practiced and taught by our Lord Jesus and his apostles. The wolves kill our fundie sheep by the millions. How can we take off that and end up wolves? Hmm? Go figure.

Buzsaw writes [summed]:'the Qur'an says this and the bible says that, so the Qur'an must be wrong' repeated 10 times.ROTFLMAO.What kind of comparison is that? I was hoping that you would come up with some peer-reviewed archaelogical/historical evidence that could refute a certain statement in the Qur'an, and all you can do is that? Pathetic. I can do the same, saying that because the bible says this and Qur'an says that, the bible is wrong. Why? Because I believe that the Qur'an is axiomatically true! There we go, round and round in circles.Your case do not convince me, because I believe that the bible has been corrupted.Open a new thread. Throw in some evidence independent of both scriptures. Prove me wrong old man.About no.6, this Nimrod (Arabic spelling Namrudz) is the King of Babylonia, not the Nimrod of the bible. Maybe it's a popular ancient Middle Eastern name.About no.7, the 'mis-names' are actually Arabic versions of their names. Goliath=Jalut; Korah=Qarun; Saul=Thalut; Enoch=Idris; Ezekiel=Zulkifli; John the Baptist=Yahya; Jonah=Yunus.About no.9. 7:59--64 refers to Noah/Nuh and the flood (not global), and if you'd only inspect closely, Nuh's story ends at verse 64, followed by Prophet Hud's of the 'Ad people's story at verse 65 onwards, while 7:136 is actually about the Pharaoh of Moses' time, drowned in the sea with his army. Haven't we told you not to pick verses out of context?Oh yeah, your bible is wrong. It does not mention prophets such as Hud and Salih, or sages like Iskandar Zulkarnain /Alexander the Great and Luqman, accused Nuh of being drunk and Lot/Luth of incest, and claimed that Jesus was the son of God.What, is that strange? No, I'm just doing the comparison Buzsaw-style.

Buz, I posted your comment at free-minds forum and the poster called 'TheNabi' has answered you directly.Quoting him in his two posts (warning: long post)

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Peace

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BUZSAW: The description you've given to "Islam" is particularly interesting; "{the unknown and unpracticed system)".

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Why is this description so interesting?

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So nobody in Islamland knows or practices Islam is what is implied. In fact the prophet Mohammed did not himself practice the long list of the "Islam" system as put forth in this link, nor did he teach it exclusively in his Quran.

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How can Muhammad not practice what is in the link (free-minds.org) given you if the link (free-minds.org) is exclusively based on al-quran as Muhammad himself followed God's deen/way exclusively based on al-quran (see 6:50, 6:106, 7:3, 7:203, 10:15, 46:9 of al-quran for referrence)? Can you explain the differences you see in Muhammad's quran and that which is used at free-minds.org?

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Neither the Sunnas or the Quran or the authors of either taught or practiced what this link states.

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Can you explain what you mean? Sunnah and quran are not living entities so how can such things practice what you see at free-minds.org? Sunnah is method or system, and quran is reading or recital. However, in al-quran it is said that Muhammad practices naught but al-quran as a method to God's deen/way (see 6:50, 6:106, 7:3, 7:203, 10:15, 46:9 of al-quran for referrence).

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For example Mohammed had many wives, while restricting others to four and advocated the cutting off of limbs for crimes, etc, etc.

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Can you point out these facts in Muhammad's quran or in free-minds quran?

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The link denounces both as not Islam. It appears that the sole purpose of this link is to recruit people into Islam, and to become Muslims by declaring Allah to be the true god and Mohammed his prophet. Once this is accomplished, they become officially Muslims and to depart or change the mind requires death as a heretic, as stated in the authorized Precept Hadiths and the Quran.

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The sole purpose of free-minds.org is not to convert anyone, but to inform people of al-islam based on the understanding we have acquired in our inquisitions of al-quran. The precepts of hadith other than al-quran as a source of law to Gods deen is invalid based on 13:37 of al-quran and 6:114 of al-quran in which we are told al-quran has the law and God is the judge, i.e. it is through God we get judgements for God's prescribed deen/way.

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Also one should take note, especially you Mr. BUZSAW, since you have a deluded view of what al-islam is, that people are given the right to believe or disbelieve in al-quran's teachings (see 17:84, 18:29 for referrence). The source of law in al-islam is not preponderant in al-quran, but is soley from al-quran. So Mr. BUZSAW if you will, can you point out where in al-quran apostates are called to be executed, or killed simply for believing differently?

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This link appears to be designed for recruiting gullible converts into something depicted in the link that does not actually exist in practice anywhere in Islamland where the real doctrines of the Quran and the Sunnas are taught and practiced.

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As of yet i've not seen where the doctrine of al-quran is fully employed in any land, or in 'Islamland' as you have called it. So I have to disagree with you that al-quran is practiced in these lands. Again free-minds is not a site to ensnare the gullible, but we call for all people to think and to ponder and verify all things (see 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11 of al-quran for referrence).

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After all Americans could comfortably accept the "Islam" depicted in the link and they do by the thousands, but once a substantial percentage of a nation become Muslims, then comes out the wolf under the sheepskin with what is really taught and practiced in real Islamland and what the prophet himself taught and practiced.

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I beg to differ Mr. BUZSAW. 'Islamland' does not employ al-quran in their practice and if they do it is not to the exclusion of other laws which they uphold along with those in al-quran as 'law' in/to God's deen/way. We are told in al-quran that the scripture is the best guide to God's deen and we that we need no other source of guidance and law.

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28:49 Say: "Then bring forth a scripture from God that is better in guidance so I may follow it, if you are truthful."

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And...

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29:45 Recite what is inspired to you of the Scripture, and hold the assembly; for the assembly prohibits evil and vice, and the remembrance of God is the greatest. God knows everything you do.

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29:46 And do not argue with the people of the Scripture except in the best manner; except for those who are wicked amongst them; and say: We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our god and your god is the same; to Him we surrender.

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29:47 And similarly, We have sent down to you the Book. Thus, those whom We have given the Scripture will believe in it. Also, some of your people will believe in it. The only ones who mock Our revelations are the rejecters.

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29:48 You were not reciting any scripture before this, nor were you writing one down by your hand. In that case, the doubters would have had reason.

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29:49 In fact, it is a clear revelation in the chests of those who have been given knowledge. And it is only the wicked who doubt Our revelations.

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29:50 And they said: If only signs would come down to him from his Lord! Say: All signs are with God, and I am but a clear warner.

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29:51 Is it not enough for them that We have sent down to you the Scripture, being recited to them? In that is a mercy and a reminder for people who believe.

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Granted some of the virtuous aspects of the link are included in the Quran, but much of the not so pretty stuff taught and practiced in real Islamland by the vast majority Suni and Shia as also taught in both the Quran an the Sunnas comes out.

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All of the not so pretty stuff is not from al-quran at all. However maybe you deem unpretty that which you do not like or agree with and that too is fine. So to you be your way and me mine (see 109:1-6 for refference).

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109:1 Say: "O rejecters,"

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109:2 "I do not serve what you serve,"

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109:3 "Nor do you serve what I serve,"

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109:4 "Nor will I serve what you serve,"

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109:5 "Nor will you serve what I serve,"

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109:6 "To you is your system, and to me is mine."

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And you are the one who says al-quran calls for al-muslimeen to be intolerant of the beliefs and practices of others? Go figure that you probably did not read al-quran in totality or in objectivity. Please take the time to do so.

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Take care.

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Joe

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And his second reply to Buz:

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Peace

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This is also what BUZSAW had to say to you and here is my reply.

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The website link is miles away from reality. Islam, as taught and practiced by both Mohammed and the authors of the Precept Sunnas regarded by the vast majority of Muslim scholars and clerics for doctrine in Islam is reflected by the Suni and Shia than the nice sounding stuff in the link ascribed to Islam.

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The message of al-quran constitutes al-islam to God, without which Muhammad would not have delivered the message of God's deen/way.

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5:67 O messenger, deliver what was sent down to you from your Lord, and if you do not then you have not delivered His message; and God will protect you from the people. God does not guide the disbelieving people.

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Also take note that we are admonished/warned that most of mankind will be in the wrong (see 6:116 of al-quran for referrence).

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6:116 And if you obey the majority of those on earth they will lead you astray; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.

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Snuff what the vast majority says, in al-quran the mumin are told to follow the best (see 39:18 of al-quran for referrence).

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39:18 The ones who listen to what is being said, then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.

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The link depicts the UNPRACTICED AND UNKNOWN fantasy of Islam, not the practiced and known reality of it as practiced and taught by Mohammed and his desciples. You seem to have bought into the fantasy.

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How do you judge BUZSAW? How can it be unknown if you who does not practice it knows of it and we who do practice also know of it? The reality of al-islam is it's application based on it's tenents.

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48:29 Muhammad is the messenger of God, and those who are with him are severe against the rejecters, but merciful between themselves. You see them yielding and submitting, they seek God's blessings and approval. Their distinction is in their faces, as a result of submitting. Such is their example in the Torah. And their example in the Injeel is like a plant which shoots out and becomes strong and thick and it stands straight on its stem, pleasing to the farmers that He may enrage the rejecters with them. God promises those among them who believe and do good works a forgiveness and a great reward.

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Take care.

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Joe

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** q_l_l l **سَلاَمٌ عَلَيْكُمْ
Salaamunn 3alaykumm,
Peace Be Upon You,Hello NosyNed,I like your post on Similarities. Great summing up! I wonder if it is OK with you if I borrow it and post it on Free Minds - Index. I assure you I will not violate your copyrights سَلاَمٌ هِيَ
Salaamunn He-Ya
Peace It Is

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1. Christianity was never practiced by Abraham or Moses.

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Yeah, but they are a part of Xianity. Evangelicals and the RC refer to them, and their teachings/practices all the time. If not then we would not be faced with fundamentalists claiming we must allow the 10 commandments posted in front of court houses or we are rejecting Jesus and God.

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2. John the Baptist did not write Revelation... It was also the time when Jesus would return and set up his rightious kingdom...

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I didn't say John the Baptist wrote Revelations, nor was I trying to. That said I am uncertain how you can claim you know for sure who wrote it. That is a matter of some debate as far as I understand.But more important, Jesus would return and set up his righteous kingdom how exactly? Please explain how to an atheist or pagan this would differ than if Islamic militant radicals set up their righteous kingdom?

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3. Neither Jesus or his apostles taught Christians to do harm to anyone

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We've been over this already. I agree with this statement in part. However many Xians who call themselves fundamentalists and outnumber your apparent group of evangelicals, refer to the second part of Jesus's life on earth (the lion... the sword wielder), as well as the likes of Abraham and Moses to justify violence and intolerance.I will also point out that (if I remember right) you have used references to the levitical laws and Paul's support of them to form reasons the government should persecute homosexuals.

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I never ever admitted to being an unknown minority. I'm part of millions of Biblical fundamentalist evangelicals who are well known.

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I was neither spinning nor lying. If anything I must be mistaken. You said that all Xians who advocate violence or used the teachings/practices of anyone else but Christ (forgetting the X of Rev) and his disciples are nonXians.I know of no evangelical group that has not advocated violence against pagans, atheists, Muslims, Jews, other Xian denominations, or homosexuals. Not to say they are against all of them, but every evangelical group I know of has advocated violence against at least one, if not more of those groups.Likewise all of the ones I know quote from the OT, and use Abraham and Moses in conjunction with X when discussing the entirety of the Xian faith.Please let me know what denomination you belong to, some places I can learn more about your leaders, and information on its demographics.

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that seems to irritate you soooooo much more than the fundamentalism of the Quran taught and practiced by their prophet, the Jihad killers practice.

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You are the liar and this statement proves it. I have clearly come out against militant Islam. I have even stated that the MILITANT VERSION of Islam has been used to dominate and oppress many across the MidEast. Militant Islam is a growing danger and must be dealt with, including force when it is necessary.I was firmly behind our war in Afghanistan, and in fact believed it was long overdue. The Taliban and Al-Queda were dangers well known by anyone paying attention pre 9-11. My rejection of the Iraq War was in part due to its weakening of our efforts in Afghanistan, and that it would allow militant Islamics to gain another foothold/excuse in their war against US.The only defense I have given is that there are nonmilitant versions of Islam. Muslims are not all going to become this. Those that do are part of the same socio-economic issues that allowed for the oppression of the RC, and militant Xians/Jews today.If you call the militants the fundamentalists of Islam, then the same goes for the militant/oppressives of Xianity/Judaism. To do otherwise is hypocritical.Which group poses the greater threat right now? I'd say militant Islam, but the other militants religious zealots are right behind them (and are present dangers).

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there were multitudes of underground Christians during the dark ages of the bloody inquisitions and persecution perpetrated by the bishops and popes of Vatican City.

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And why can this NOT be true for Islam, even in "Islamland"?{quoteyour pagan friend[/quote]I'll let you know more in about a week or two (when the person comes back and I get to talk to that person some more). At that time I should have quite a bit to say... none of it in line with your assessment of Islam.

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What I've said is that the leaders and devouts in fundamenalist nations who go by the prophet, the sunnas and the Quran become the most oppressive, intolerant and violent.

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No, you have said that to be a true Muslim, they MUST do this. The above statement I have no issue with, as long as you add that those leaders are attempting to gain power through the religion.

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There's no Israel on their school maps, etc, etc.

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You take a look at that map of the US, any map that children are shown in schools... look really close... you tell me how many show the lands of the Native Americans.After our illegally purchasing of THEIR lands from FRANCE, it is marked as ours. Even today, though they legally have their own nations within our borders, we do not show them as existing on our maps.... whoops!

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how did the Christians fare who resided along side the Muslims in Lebanon??

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Nice dodge. Xian militants also massacred Islamic Palestinians under Sharon's guidance. The question was about the tolerant Islamic and Xian communities, not the militant ones. The nonmilitant groups have and do live well side by side. Want to address that point instead? Palestinians include both Xians and Muslims.

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They wrote and taught accordingly. The violence in them was not that contradictory.

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Still dodging. The violence is clearly contradictory, except if one reads that one passage you quote endlessly out of context with the rest of the Quran. Why can't a MUSLIM (not the ones that WROTE THE SUNNA) decide the Quran trumps any contradictions.

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they do not have the power to implement the true Islam as taught and practiced by the prophet and his subsequent desciples.

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Again, telling Muslims that they MUST ascribe to shia or sunni denominations, and not choose the Quran (the ONLY stated word of God) as their sole source of wisdom.

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Keep them at bay as Israel does, as we are now forced to do, and as the world has done for 14 centuries. Otherwise, watch out and beware!!!

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So to get this straight, you are saying that all Muslims must be forced into ghettos and denied the rights of other nations, unless they convert or are exterminated?If you do not mean this, please explain in detail, what is YOUR plan for how the world must deal with all Muslims? If you answer nothing else, I want the answer to this.

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You're advancing the cause of militant Islam right here and now,

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By saying we need to fight militant Islamic forces? And FYI, you know whose trying to put their religion all over our government right now? Xians.Both groups of fundies look the same to me.

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The wolves kill our fundie sheep by the millions. How can we take off that and end up wolves? Hmm?

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What the hell are you talking about? What millions have died where? If anything, at this point we have now killed more innocent Muslims than any amount of Xians have been killed in the last 5 years.

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Go figure.

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I have. If I end up dead at the end of both of your quests for rightenousness kingdoms, then there is no difference between you two. Do you have anything to counter this, or are you admitting it is true?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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And FYI, you know whose trying to put their religion all over our government right now? Xians.

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This might be a good time to step in and express something that's been rolling around my head for a couple of days.Buz, you seem to have been expressing shock that anyone would find radical Christians more frightening than radical Muslims. On the surface, your shock would seem warranted. As far as who uses the most explosives, radical Muslims would seem to be in the lead.But the bottom line is, no matter how many buildings groups like al-Qaeda destroy, they're not going to directly remove our freedoms. The US is not going to say, "Holy crap! al-Qaeda struck again! Let's give in to their demands!" Some lives might be lost, true. But ultimately, the living (who far outnumber the dead) will not have their lives irrevocably altered. (There might be, and has been, some freedom lost in the American response to radical Muslims, but that's a different story.)However, radical Christian groups (which you seem to be defining differently than fundamentalist Christian groups, and for the purposes of this discussion so be it) are actively attempting to remove our freedoms, and are in a position to do so. The fight against gay marriage is a prime example... you might well be (and judging from your previous posts I'm guessing you are) morally opposed to gay marriage, but it's still a freedom being prevented from reaching the public because of radical Christianity. (And I know you to be smart enough to understand the difference between what God allows and what the government should allow, so I won't go into that.)So basically, that's where our fear of radical Christians comes in. They are in a position to affect the freedom of a far greater number of Americans adversely than radical Muslims are.I hope that cleared things up without rambling too much.

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"It isn't faith that makes good science, it's curiosity."
-Professor Barnhard, The Day the Earth Stood Still

Dan preaches to choir, choir shouts back "hallelujah!"

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

And there are worse waiting in the wings...CHRISTIAN RECONSTRUCTIONISM, DOMINION THEOLOGY AND THEONOMY And just for extra relevance to this forum Howard Ahmanson is both a former board member of the Reconstructionist Chalcedon Foundation and major donor to the Discovery Institute

Dan,
1. Christians who do not want the law to be changed allowing same sex marriages and all the legal nightmares that we get with that ARE NOT RADICAL. They've been thayaway for over two centuries. You people who want the laws which have worked so well changed to ruin out nation are the dangerous radical ones.2. The bloody ruthless fundies of Islam, with one suitcase chemical or nuk bomb could conceivably take out our entire government when they were all in one session. That would likely delight the majority of Islamland even more than 9/11. Then where would our freedoms be?3. The other slower way is to do it like they've done in most of the nations they run now by getting a third or more of the nation converted and go from there, tightening the noose.4. You don't get the factual message, do you? It's the fundie Christian sheepies that'r being slaughtered by the millions by the brutal wolvsies. The sheepies aren't violent. We do things the hard and right way. We earn what we want at the ballot poles as it's been done ever since the early days when the Bible and Watt's hymnal were standard in all the DC schools. Biblical Christianity has done nothing but good for our nation all these years and you people want to change that. Keep on keeping on apologizing for Islam, all of you and keep on changing the laws against what's blessed America and by by to yours and my freedoms.

No one is trying to change the laws to allow same sex marriage Buz...
We are saying the constitution need to be enforced. It's YOUR group that wants laws changed.

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Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

Holmes, I simply don't have time for all your yada. Cut it down to a couple or three of something real substantial and we'll talk. I don't have and hour or two to answer your usual heckofalong posts. Think specificize and downsize. We've already gone over most of your stuff and I aintagona go over and over it. What we differ on, get use to it and agree to disagree.